Will changing the APFT to include Pull-ups really show a Soldiers battle readiness?

2014-04-13T14:28:07-04:00

There has been many attempts to change the APFT over the past few years. Pull-ups in my opinion are far more useful then push-ups as in combat, you spend far less time pushing yourself up then you do pulling yourself up into vehicles, obstacles, etc.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Apr 13 at 2014 3:15 PM

2014-04-13T15:15:55-04:00

Yes, Pull-ups are a must and should be added into the test.

Response by SGT Jason Thomas made Apr 13 at 2014 6:27 PM

2014-04-13T18:27:37-04:00

Pull ups are an old exercise but have become very fashionable lately because of "Crossfit" type workouts. I am no longer active duty and have joined a. Police Tactical team that has pull-ups as part of our yearly physical assessment.

We currently have three members out for surgery on rotator cuff tendons. That's a 3 and a half month medical leave. One is a very active Crossfit guy. The other is the owner of an official Crossfit franchise and instructor. Improper pull ups are dangerous. I don't know if an improper push-up ever caused serious bodily injury. Both seem to measure upper body strength and endurance.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 7:03 PM

2014-04-13T19:03:43-04:00

While we are on topic of APFT Changes, let me put out my wish list for a new APFT: STANDARD: GO/NO-GO (no grading scale); GENDER/AGE INDISCRIMINATESPEED=50 YD SPRINT (9 SEC)MUSCULAR ENDURANCE=50 YD DUMMY DRAG (200 LBS) (2.5 min)AGILITY= 7FT INCLINED WALL + 3M ROPE CLIMB CORE STRENGTH= 60 SEC PLANKCARDIOVASCULAR ENDURANCE=12M RUCK (25 lb ruck plus full gear) (4 HR MAX) Thoughts??? What's missing?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 9:18 PM

2014-04-13T21:18:35-04:00

Read the following article and then come back comment if today's PRT is really conducive to meeting the needs on the battlefield. You will be amazed.

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/APRT_WhitfieldEast.pdf

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Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 12:16 PM

2014-04-14T12:16:31-04:00

Per the limited scope of the question - I say yes. The Pull-Up would complement the Push-Up and lend to soldiers developing more balanced upper body strength in general, i.e., good work capacity to "Push" (chest) and "Pull" (back).

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2014 12:04 AM

2014-05-03T00:04:33-04:00

I respectfully disagree. You got folks who can barely do the bare min of push ups. Even when we do pull ups as a part of our PT program, folks are struggling. And those are the gym rats who bench 500 LBS

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2014 11:52 AM

2014-05-20T11:52:38-04:00

Great input from everyone. As a warfighter of over 23 years I will say this.
- Can the average soldier lift, carry and pull a 185 lb soldier to safety?
- Ammo cans and sandbags do not and are not a substitute for the reality that warfighters face on the ground.
- In my opinion, when someone is good at something, like running it is because they put the effort to make it look easy. I can say the same for pugs ups. I workout a lot on my own...therefore it is easy. Similar arguements for sit-ups.

Fact is...that the Military has a very large population of 9-5 types that only care about their one hour of PT and call it good. As leaders, you should not be satisfied with the status quo and push your soldiers to do more physical activity instead of allowing them to flounder off and play xbox in their rooms or go smoke at the smoke pit.

If soldiers want to to that....then it should cost them....100 push ups (done correctly) for 1 hour of Xbox.
Similar for smoking....let them pay 100 sit-ups for their 15 minutes of smoking.

Set the standard...be an asshole...raise the bar...demolish the adverse effects of monotony and common place thought. Get rid of it...any chance you can.

Make time to conduct TDGs..(tactical decision games) and teach tactics to those privates and specialists...they still wear the green uniform too.
Make them carry a writing pad and a pen at all times to teach them responsibility and awareness.

The Army doesn't need new anything...it just needs Soldiers to get their shit together and accept the fact that our country expects all of us to be leaders.....regardless of if they are 18 or 48.

That is the ugly truth.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2014 11:01 PM

2014-08-24T23:01:25-04:00

All the physical strength and endurance in the world doesn't matter if you don't have it in the head when you find yourself in a fight. And there's no way anyone can gauge that until you're actually there.

Also, human beings can do amazing things when adrenaline and survival instinct kick in.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2014 11:39 PM

2014-08-24T23:39:29-04:00

Well, pull-ups would knock a majority of females out. I'm not being argumentative, it's just a simple truth.

Response by SSG(P) Auston Terry made Sep 6 at 2014 9:52 AM

2014-09-06T09:52:17-04:00

CSM Dailey has basically sid that inside of the frame work the army wants; a PT test taken anywhere, with little or no equipment and administered by any leader that the current APFT will remain indefinately

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2014 2:08 AM

2014-09-12T02:08:43-04:00

The only thing that is going to truly show a soldiers battle readiness is sending them to battle.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Dec 23 at 2014 9:20 AM

2014-12-23T09:20:15-05:00

Pull ups? Yes, as it measures strength and endurance of the delts and lat areas, neither of which are stressed to any appreciable extent by pushups.

Chin ups? No. They primarily measure bicep strength.

Response by John Russell made Dec 23 at 2014 12:30 PM

2014-12-23T12:30:19-05:00

Pullups CAN help to a certain degree. But you got to remember in real life combat you are carrying iotv plus weapon plis your buddy who is hanging on to life by a thread. As impossible as it sounds they need to test pullups with at least 75% extra weight attached. Do away with pushups and use dips since if you are ever in a vehicle rollover youll use the same body mechanics to maneuver yourself out anyhow. Plus..the more dips you can do the more pushups youll do anyways..if the army thinks that pushups will help carryover into combat *rolls eyes*.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2015 6:24 PM

2015-02-16T18:24:39-05:00

Not necessarily. I have seen Soldiers max the APFT and then struggle doing dismounted patrols in Afghanistan. I run my 2 miles in 15 minutes but I can walk for hours on end and I can maybe do 5 pull ups

Response by SFC Stanley Waterman made Feb 16 at 2015 7:13 PM

2015-02-16T19:13:37-05:00

Pull-ups is not the answer. What is going to happen is that it is going to cause more injuries to soldiers body. This is what they said about cross fit and now you have a lot of soldiers going to sick call.

Response by SPC David S. made Feb 16 at 2015 7:38 PM

2015-02-16T19:38:40-05:00

I see pull-ups as a point of contention for the bigger guys and galls in the Army. Myself being 6' 4" 250+ lbs it starts to get dangerous to do pull ups. Its rare to see people over 250 get 8. However I could bench over 320+ plus I maxed push-ups and sit-ups and ran the 2 miles in 15 mins. More muscle mass in way of lats to do pull-ups means more weight. I think it would get to the point where the individual would become muscle bound.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Feb 25 at 2015 11:58 PM

2015-02-25T23:58:19-05:00

Personally, I like the current APFT. I don't really care what the Marines do, and the Air Force and Navy PT standards and organized unit PT are a relatively recent phenomenon (late 90s/early 2000). If we start doing pull-ups the Marines will probably start doing push-ups.

The purpose of PT is to ensure a Soldier is physically and mentally ready for combat. So, strength and endurance matter; aerobic and anaerobic. Being physical fit (as measured by any measurement test) reduces stress, and reduces unnecessary injury. I am not a sports physiologist, but I was college athlete, and I spent almost 33 years in Army, so I believe fitness matters, and as leaders max should be your standard.

That said, I came in the Army in 1980, and the Army had just stopped the 5 event PT test (they were still lamenting about the good ole 5 event PT test), and we still doing the APFT in fatigue pants and boots... The current APFT has been around for a long time, and is just that, a test. Whatever test we have, Soldiers will train for the test if their goal to do their best.

There have been more than one attempt to replace the current test, but for some reason we seem to the current test is a good one.

The test should measure you fitness at any time, meaning you should not train up for it. You should design a PT program based on continuous improvement in all areas, and then APFT will be just another day.

As others have said, if the pull-up becomes a new event, we will train for that. Just like you need to push-ups to get better at push-ups, we will need to train pull-ups to improve.

In JROTC we can do either Pull-Ups or Push-Ups as part of Cadet Fitness Test, and we do Pull-Ups, as they are harder for most. But, we have been considering doing the Push-up as that is the norm and current Army standard.

I couldn't do a lot of push-ups when I came in the Army, but I figured it out, and by the time I graduated from OCS, I was well above 300 on the extended scale; many of us were. I could not climb a rope or do pull-ups, but I learned how, as I needed to do them for Ranger School and other reasons.

So, what is the best APFT....

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 7:11 PM

2015-02-26T19:11:45-05:00

The current APFT is fine and does not need to be changed. It is a basic assessment for the force as a whole. We need to stop thinking along the lines of changing the basic APFT and think about adding a Unit Physical Fitness Test to supplement the APFT.

The Army is an all volunteer force and units are not created equal. A support BN can not be expected to have the same standards as a Infantry or mechanized unit.

I would propose the creation of 20 to 30 standard events with scoring/age data made available for the events. Units (BN level?) can then pull from these standard events to create a supplementary Unit Physical Fitness Test that supports their METL. Standardized scoring would support recommendations for boards, schools, bars, and evaluations.

Can I go ahead and coin the term UPFT now?

Response by SSG Chris Garabitos made May 22 at 2015 5:09 AM

2015-05-22T05:09:38-04:00

Add the pull-up. 10 would be your minimum. Since FM 7-22 outlines various exercises with the pull-up, then adding this event would be conducive to a well rounded APFT.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 5:57 PM

2015-05-28T17:57:27-04:00

It would be hard to argue that every Soldier shouldn't at least be able to pull themselves up once. Whether it should be in the APFT or a separate Combat Fitness Assessment is up for debate, but the pull up should be a tested event. Suggesting a minimum of 10 seems a little bit off though.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2015 9:38 AM

2015-07-16T09:38:42-04:00

The APFT should be designed more so not just as a test of soldier fitness, but as a lens to focus soldier fitness behavior/activities so they are more successful for their careers and jobs. Given this context, the pull-up is a great exercise as an indicator for upper body strength (in particular the upper back/shoulders) and relative body composition. Modern soldiers sit quite a bit and wear heavy loads biased to the upper torso (body armor) - maintaining healthy posture is critical. The Pull-Up, done routinely, maintains a healthy upper back to combat the negative effects of sitting and heavy loads on the torso. Pull-ups have to be done routinely to maintain proficiency - the value is soldiers will have improved posture and less physical pain from sitting too long and wearing body armor. If the pull-up is added, I would also get rid of the SU and replace with hanging high-knee raises or hanging toes-to-bar or heel clinchers. These are great total body exercises that, again, helps the body become more durable/resistant to the negative effects of prolonged sitting and wearing heavy loads.

Per some of the comments below - it is important to also recognize the APFT is a general and minimum fitness assessment, it must be very easy to test/evaluate under any given condition and environment. The APFT is not an MOS specific test.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2015 12:49 PM

2015-08-02T12:49:48-04:00

I don't think it will show more battle ready. Personally, I do great with push ups but suck at pull ups. (Guys style pull ups).

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2015 11:08 PM

2015-08-03T23:08:22-04:00

I never did well with pull ups. I always did very well in the run, pushups and situps. I still run nearly every days at age 65!

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Sep 24 at 2015 1:33 PM

2015-09-24T13:33:12-04:00

I would love to see one DoD standard across the board, but that is pipe dreaming. I would rather see sit ups done with, and in favor go with crunches or some other ab test. Sprints over a two mile event, or a ruck march with say 30 lbs over 5 miles. When was the last time a combat soldier ran two miles without gear (okay a mere PT belt)? Right that first encounter with the North Koreans, the battle of Kasserine pass?

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Dec 21 at 2016 8:14 PM

2016-12-21T20:14:54-05:00

Well when I was in we had the crab walk pushup sit ups horizontal bars and 2 mile run so that what they should bring back?
SSG MARK FRANZEN USA VET

Response by CPT Jacob Swartout made Mar 11 at 2017 1:19 AM

2017-03-11T01:19:58-05:00

The Army would have to do a survey to see the results. Take a few battalions over a set time to see how many Soldiers can do them vs Soldiers barely doing one correct pull-up. Once results are determined, those in charge of possibly changing the current APFT would have to make a decision based on results and prediction of how it effects the force going forward. I have friends who can do 15 or more without stopping and friends who can't do more than 5 at a time. Be interesting to see what the Army chooses next.

Response by CPL Brian Orme made Mar 11 at 2017 2:58 PM

2017-03-11T14:58:06-05:00

Thought I might put a little insight into the picture shown. The pic with the three soldiers is not showing a pull-up. That would be a chin-up, which uses a lot of bicep muscle. Much easier than a pull-up, which uses the upper back and lats.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Mar 16 at 2017 8:45 PM

2017-03-16T20:45:59-04:00

Good God I have been hearing the Army was going to pull ups since 1982, we were also going to phase out the M16 Family of rifles, and there was going to be a new lighter machine gun to replace the M2. Seriously how many times has an ISIS fighter over ocme an installation based on their pull up ability?

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Mar 16 at 2017 10:58 PM

2017-03-16T22:58:26-04:00

As long as the POGs get a pass