Will the Sailors on the USS Fitzgerald be eligible for combat awards? Specifically, will FC1 Rehm be eligible for the MoH?

SN Greg Wright — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 14:37:51 -0400

So on several online forums, I've asserted my opinion that FC1 Rehm, who continued saving Sailors until he knew the ship would sink if they didn't close the watertight hatch (and then DID close it, thereby saving the ship but sacrificing himself and 6 others) should be eligible for the MoH for his actions, if they bear out as reported so far. Someone on another forum said something to the effect that he'll get some sort of medal for sure, but not a combat medal. So that's my question. Does the situation on the Fitz rise to the level of combat? I don't think you'll find any Sailor who says it doesn't. Opinions are welcome, but I'm hoping for a definitive answer. Note: if it's determined that the Crystal deliberately rammed the Fitz, this question becomes moot entirely.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2017 2:43 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 14:43:25 -0400

What's the latest on the Fitzgerald investigation?

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Jun 22 at 2017 2:53 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 14:53:41 -0400

Unless the pilot of the Philippine-flagged ACX Crystal container ship turns out to have been influenced by Islamic radicals in the Philippines which would make the collision a terrorist attack, I don't think the Sailors on the USS Fitzgerald be eligible for combat awards. I do expect that those who risked their lives to save others on board the USS Fitzgerald, especially Fire Controlman 1st Class Gary Leo Rehm Jr., should be eligible and hopefully will be awarded the Navy and Marine Corps Medal SN Greg Wright even though in his case it will be posthumous.

Response by SSG Carlos Madden made Jun 22 at 2017 2:59 PM

SSG Carlos Madden — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 14:59:30 -0400

I do not believe so as they do not meet the following requirements for the MoH since there there was no known enemy or hostile action:
(1) While engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States;
(2) While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign
force; or
(3) While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an
opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

However, FC1 Rehm should, and will likely receive a "Navy and Marine Corps Medal" for those actions.

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/134833v1_dodm_2016.pdf

134833v1_dodm_2016.pdf

Response by 1stSgt Nelson Kerr made Jun 22 at 2017 2:59 PM

1stSgt Nelson Kerr — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 14:59:48 -0400

Regrettably, to give combat awards there will have to be real evidence that it was enemy action not F-up. that is not fair but that is what the Regs and law require.

Response by PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM made Jun 22 at 2017 3:05 PM

PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 15:05:35 -0400

Since the Fitzgerald was not in a Combat area and not in a battle the MoH and the NAVY CROSS are very doubtful since both are specifically are awarded for heroism and Valor in battle. but there is always the Navy and Marine Corps Medal, the highest award that is not battle related.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jun 22 at 2017 3:06 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 15:06:41 -0400

He would only be eligible for the Soldier's Medal, one that most people don't know. It was created to acknowledge acts of valor performed outside actual combat and applies to all branches of the military

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2017 3:20 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 15:20:59 -0400

I don't think the situation would qualify for MoH, even if it was determined if the ramming was intentional.

In my mind, an analogous situation would be a group of soldiers on a bus. Someone sees this, decided to ram the bus on a highway, and caused the bus to flip or some other accident. If a Soldier performed heroic measures, I could see the Soldier's Medal, but not MoH.

Again, that is just my take

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2017 3:41 PM

Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 15:41:56 -0400

Unfortunately the criteria isn't met. I would assume that Congress could waive the criteria if someone lit a fire under them but I doubt they will.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jun 22 at 2017 3:57 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 15:57:18 -0400

In truth, unless you have access to information the rest of us do not have, there is still way to many unanswered questions to actually even begin honestly answer this question.
My personal opinion, that with the facts we do have, this would not reach the level of Medal of Honor but would deserve something way above Navy Commendation Medal?

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Jun 22 at 2017 4:05 PM

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 16:05:18 -0400

No. There is nothing about the situation that qualifies the sailor for a MoH. However, there are noncombat medals for heroism that do apply. The navy has the navy and marine corps medal for heroism that does in fact apply. Similar to the army's soldier medal, it is similar to many valor awards, but specific to situations that involved no combat.

Response by PO3 Donald Murphy made Jun 22 at 2017 4:11 PM

PO3 Donald Murphy — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 16:11:13 -0400

I do not have my references handy at the moment, but - correct me if I'm wrong - wasn't a diver given the medal of honor for saving lives during a peacetime submarine sinking in the 30's?

Response by PO3 Donald Murphy made Jun 22 at 2017 4:14 PM

PO3 Donald Murphy — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 16:14:42 -0400

I found the data I was looking for. This guy got the Medal Of Honor in peacetime. So it can be done.

http://www.cmohs.org/recipient-detail/2476/badders-william.php

Turns out that there have been several peacetime Medal Of Honor receipients including this guy as well...

http://www.cmohs.org/recipient-detail/2477/bennett-floyd.php

badders-william.php

Response by MSgt George Cater made Jun 22 at 2017 5:32 PM

MSgt George Cater — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:32:18 -0400

I understand that the requirements were tightened around WW2, but there have been awards for heroism above and beyond in peacetime. One such was Ensign Henry Drexler of the USS Trenton.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Clay_Drexler

Perhaps time for an exception?

Henry Clay Drexler - Wikipedia

Henry Clay Drexler (August 7, 1901 – October 20, 1924) was an Ensign in the United States Navy and a recipient of both the Navy Cross and the Medal of Honor.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2017 5:45 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:45:23 -0400

After several years of awarding Purple Hearts for injuries suffered in traffic accidents while serving in Iraq and Ass-ghanistan or being in a gym at the wrong time in Texas, nothing would surprise me anymore. The DoD now passes medals and ribbons out like candy. It's simply disgusting.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Jun 22 at 2017 5:54 PM

SFC Jim Ruether — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:54:47 -0400

As important as it may seem to award these sailors with some kind of posthumous award for bravery what about the guy or gal who allowed this collision to occur in the first place? Was the radar out, no commo with the captain, no collision avoidance radar? WTH someone needs to answer to this negligence!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2017 7:02 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 19:02:15 -0400

This was not a combat situation, nor was it in a combat area. As such, any decoration, if awarded, would be a non-combat medal.
The Navy and Marine Corps Medal would seem appropriate.

Not to take anything away from this Petty Officer's actions, but no enemy was involved (probably).

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2017 8:19 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 20:19:35 -0400

SN Greg Wright Here is an update on what will be a long investigation.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/politics/uss-fitzgerald-investigation-update/index.html

New details emerge in USS Fitzgerald collision

Five of the seven Navy sailors who died aboard the USS Fitzgerald when it collided off the east coast of Japan may have been almost instantly "incapacitated."

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2017 9:35 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jun 2017 21:35:47 -0400

Response by LtCol George Carlson made Jun 23 at 2017 12:30 AM

LtCol George Carlson — Fri, 23 Jun 2017 00:30:23 -0400

Lots to comment on and I'll try not to be totally redundant. Certainly damage control efforts aboard ship come closer to combat than most other non-combat events. As the son of a WW2 tin-can sailor I have to admit that the ship doesn't "care" if the hole in the side was caused by a bomb, torpedo, enemy vessel, or a (assumedly) friendly vessel. The results and the demands on the crew are the same. I have the greatest respect and admiration for the courage and heroism shown by FC1 Rehm. That said, he clearly should be given the highest award appropriate. I say appropriate and know that will get some reactions. First, remember that we all tend to see award precedence as the sole definition of heroism. That's a small part of what it should be. All of the attempts to define and distinguish awards are aimed at consistency more than some totally lineal scorecard. The history of the MoH is very erratic, at best. Many were given out during the Civil War for actions that might not even rate a Navy Comm today. Many of those were subsequently downgraded. Prior to WW2 a select few were given for non-combat heroism (I think before the Navy and Marine Corps Medal and its other service equivalents were created). But between WW2 practice and the 1963 change, all of which made for a more coherent awards system, the MoH and the Navy Cross are clearly restricted to combat and short of a finding of an intentional terrorist attack, do not apply. Now we all know that the awards system is far from perfect. Any system administered by literally thousands of imperfect human beings is going to fall short. But, that should not be used as justification to totally ignore the very specific criteria. Clearly there is a lot more to learn about the collision. None of which reflect on the character of FC1 Rehm's actions. At the risk of sounding like I am making fun (and I am not), the headline of the old Naval Institute Proceedings ad for "Farwell's Rules of the Road" keeps circulating in my head: "A collision at sea can ruin your entire day."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2017 6:16 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Jun 2017 06:16:44 -0400

Sailors Medal. But no combat, no combat medals.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2017 7:45 AM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Jun 2017 07:45:40 -0400

Navy and Marine Corps Medal for non combat heroism, but he could get MOH as law was changed because of law was changed because of Navy. Yes MOH can be awarded for above and beyond heroism, for non combat.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2017 9:49 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Jun 2017 09:49:13 -0400

It wasn't combat so why would they rate combat awards? FC1 Rehm is eligible for the Navy and Marine Corps Medal which is the highest award for non-combat actions, if the stories about what he did are true and verifiable. This is the same medal President Kennedy received for his actions saving the sailors of his PT Boat during WWII.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2017 12:15 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Jun 2017 12:15:20 -0400

This just showed up on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/politics/uss-fitzgerald-investigation-update/index.html

The official also noted the Navy is trying to corroborate accounts which suggest that the two sailors who weren't almost instantly "incapacitated" attempted to help the other five escape the incoming water.

New details emerge in USS Fitzgerald collision

Five of the seven Navy sailors who died aboard the USS Fitzgerald when it collided off the east coast of Japan may have been almost instantly "incapacitated."

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jun 24 at 2017 11:04 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:04:46 -0400

SN Greg Wright I think the 1st question, would be what type of mission were they on? Not being a sailor, my vernacular my be off here. Were they on combat mission, or training mission? I think you final comment is key. It is all about circumstances. Until the facts are known, it is hard to say. In the Army, it sounds like a Soldiers Medal. If it was deemed to be a combat mission/attack, or a terrorist attack, that changes what the options are.
http://valor.defense.gov/Description-of-Awards/

Description of Awards - U.S. Military Awards for Valor - Top 3

The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration that may be awarded by the United States government. It is presented by the President of the United States, in the name of Congress, and is conferred only upon members of the United States Armed Forces who distinguish themselves through conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty:

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2017 1:33 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Jun 2017 13:33:32 -0400

Not declared as combat so my guess would be maybe Navy and Marine Corps Medal. If the reports are accurate he sacrificed his life to save others. If they later declare it as an attack, things could change. It got kinda weird when the Federal Bldg was blown up in Oklahoma City as well. There were some active duty Marines in the Recruiting Station that were injured. A SSgt was later assigned to Platoon I was in charge of at Camp Lejeune. I wrote the civilian at Awards Branch at HQMC to inquire about the "all enemies foreign and domestic" re: PH Medal and was told at that time it did not apply. That, like this was a political hot potato and I don't know if it ever changed. No doubt this guy and others were heroic in their actions to save crew and ship, but ship always takes precedence. Mission first, men second. As to any higher award, even if it was intentional there are no guarantees when it comes to politics. For now it simply doesn't meet the "legal" standard even though it meets or exceeds any "moral" standard for recognition. MOH, NC, doesn't matter because it's just an exercise in speculation as long as it doesn't meet the legal standard. Paper changes paper though, but I'd be surprised if anyone opens that jar.

Response by PO3 John Keas made Jul 2 at 2017 1:07 PM

PO3 John Keas — Sun, 02 Jul 2017 13:07:22 -0400

No. But they should get other awards. Bronze Star is off the table too (Requires combat as well) Could get Navy Marine Corps Medals or even Silver Stars...At least the sailor who kept going back down to try to rescue as many as he could before perishing himself should get at least the Silver Star or NMCM.

Response by SFC Gary Fox made Jul 2 at 2017 1:36 PM

SFC Gary Fox — Sun, 02 Jul 2017 13:36:26 -0400

Prior to WWII, the MoH could be awarded for heroism not involving combat with the enemy. The requirements changed for the MoH have changed and therefore FC1 Rehm is not eligible.

Response by SFC Antonio Nieto made Jul 2 at 2017 3:11 PM

SFC Antonio Nieto — Sun, 02 Jul 2017 15:11:52 -0400

I think he should be granted his retirement, nevertheless he should get the highest award under the cituation on hand moreover after the collision general quarters was in place giving the person conducting the investigation for the MOH or Navy Cross the ability to write the citation on such a away to determine than under the circumstances he should be consider to the highest award possible, he put his personal safety in harm to allowed others to escape

Response by MSgt Dan Calhoun made Jul 2 at 2017 3:57 PM

MSgt Dan Calhoun — Sun, 02 Jul 2017 15:57:24 -0400

Due to the incident happening outside of a designated combat zone and (as far ad i know) not taking part in combat operations at the time, i believe he would be awarded the Navy and Marine Corps Medal...highest non-combat award available for heroism.

Response by SCPO William Akin made Jul 2 at 2017 6:03 PM

SCPO William Akin — Sun, 02 Jul 2017 18:03:15 -0400

The Navy and Marine Corps Medal is the highest non-combat decoration awarded for heroism by the United States Department of the Navy to the members of the United States Navy and United States Marine Corps. The medal was established by an act of Congress on 7 August 1942, and is authorized under 10 U.S.C. § 6246

Response by PO1 Eric Booker made Jul 2 at 2017 8:25 PM

PO1 Eric Booker — Sun, 02 Jul 2017 20:25:21 -0400

At most he/they will receive the Navy and Marine Corps medal or SS...under no circumstance will they receive the MoH or NC.

That said, those who have never served at sea really don't understand the fact that the Navy is unique in that their "enemy" at all times is the ocean they sail on/under. By far, the greatest number of casualties at sea during war time are attributed directly to either not being able to maintain watertight integrity and sinking or not being able to extinguish a conflagration at sea. Not many sailors are killed due to direct combat engagement with any enemy...but Davy Jones is ALWAYS awaiting another victim for his locker. Unlike almost every other branch, the Navy fights it's greatest enemy even in peace time.

Response by PO3 Michael James made Jul 2 at 2017 10:05 PM

PO3 Michael James — Sun, 02 Jul 2017 22:05:48 -0400

SN Wright, Sir; First; thank you for your service.. Now, Sir, Remember its the NAVY !! they will probably Ignore the issue... We have Navy Veterans Awarded with Cancer, Heart Disease, Respiratory problems, Nervous system issues, PTSD .. Even aneurysms.. ignored and denied help ... its the NAVY, and not considered to be involved in any military operations... we are just out boating.. and having parties... weekend fun on the water....