Women in combat, can we stop with the BS and just make it happen?

2014-01-08T18:08:18-05:00

4th British woman in history to earn the Military Cross.<br>Kudos.<br>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1375233/Mother-told-Military-Cross-hero-daughter-Kylie-Watson-Oh-Kylie-What-did-Next-time-don-t-.html<div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/09/article-1375233-0B8E4B [login to see] -385_1024x615_large.jpg"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1375233/Mother-told-Military-Cross-hero-daughter-Kylie-Watson-Oh-Kylie-What-did-Next-time-don-t-.html">'Oh, Kylie! What did you do? Next time, please don’t...': What mother told Military Cross hero daughter who twice braved hails of bullets to tend war wounded</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">Lance Corporal Kylie Watson, 23 - who stands just 5ft 1in tall in her Army-issue boots - is one of only four women in history to bear the coveted initials MC after her name.</div></div><div style="clear:both"></div><div class="pta-box-hide"><i class="icon-remove"></i></div></div>

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 6:18 PM

2014-01-08T18:18:45-05:00

The country needs to get it's head around the issue and accept it - we live in a 'free' society where equal rights are talked about - but not always in practice.  I have known plenty of women that I would rather have backing me up then some men.  Each individual is different - not all men are suitable for combat type roles and some women aren't either.  It should be - let all try and those that succeed in making the grade are put into those positions.  It shouldn't be based just on gender. 

Response by MSgt Donald Watkins made Feb 9 at 2014 2:38 AM

2014-02-09T02:38:12-05:00

I have never had a problem with women in any career field as long as they can do the job and that includes men. I was in 2 combat squadrons and they changed it from combat to combat support so that they could fill some of the slots with women. Our first female not only proved she could do the job and there was no difference in a man or a woman doing the job. On a our plane a EC -130E, ABCCC pronounced A B TRIPLE C, there was no latrine for men and one women. The capsule only had one, there was a urinal and a plastic bag in a hole. The plastic bag was sealed so that you would know if it had been used. The rule was if you broke the seal you carried the bag off the plane. Sometimes the plastic bag would break and if that happened you cleaned up the mess. So our female learned to use the urinal. So she would not have to take the bag off if 15 men used it. There are some career fields that will just have to be tested to see if women can do it. Men test and fail , so will women. There are some career fields that our Society just don't want a female in it, they just don't want a woman if caught interrogated. I'll leave it at that.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 10:55 AM

2014-08-14T10:55:33-04:00

The "no women in combat" clique tends to overlook that there are actually a lot of *men* who aren't suited for combat arms, either. Strength and abilities vary widely from person to person, and what matters is whether you can shoot-move-and-communicate, and look out for your buddy when bullets are flying, not what parts you have between your legs.

They also forget that "combat arms" has long since ceased to mean they are the only ones likely to engage in combat.

They will lose this battle, just as they lost the battle against gays serving (even as far back as Barry Goldwater this was clear, as when he said "You don't need to be 'straight' to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight.") and against racial integration in the service.

And when they eventually lose the battle, and the childish kicking and screaming stops, the nation and our military will be all the better for it.

Response by Cpl Michael Strickler made Aug 14 at 2014 1:06 PM

2014-08-14T13:06:24-04:00

Just like MAJ Ryan Jean said, there are men that do not belong in combat. I am sure that we have all seen some women that can outperform ourselves in quite a few ways as well.
The only problem i used to have with the issue is related to a situation we had on my second deployment where less than a month after my unit was in country an Army servicewoman claimed she had been raped. The 'site' was cordoned off, NCIS came in, etc. I'm not sure how it all turned out but I know that no one in my unit was charged or anything...
Long story short I had an issue with relationships in general (same reason I was not for homosexuals in the military). Combat is tough enough, and there are enough ruffled feathers, without adding the pain of broken hearts and so on.
I had a buddy who helped me realize two things. First, that has to do with people being cruel (instead of the correct word i wish to use) to one another. She claimed rape for her own reasons and bad break ups would be on those individuals as well. Hopefully we can be respectful to one another about those types of situations and not let them degrade. And second, along the same note, there is a reason we have professional lives and personal lives. Keep them separate. The issues I had with one of the guys in my unit had no influence on the fact that I would have taken a bullet for him.
Long story short, i used to be against it, had my eyes opened, and now i am for anyone/ anything serving so long as they muster up.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 2:50 PM

2014-08-14T14:50:43-04:00

Women have been serving (and leading) in combat for far longer than there has been a United States. Not nearly as many as men, but they've been there. Women served in combat during the American Revolution - so they have been there since the start of the US (albeit in disguise for many years).

They have been captured, interrogated, and sexually abused - as have men. There were women POWs in WWII and women died in Vietnam (and I assume in Korea as well). Women performed vital roles in WWII as WASPs, although this has only recently been recognized as "military" service.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 4:04 PM

2014-08-14T16:04:27-04:00

Okay, first of all, there is no reason why a persons age, gender, sexual orientation, race, shoe size, handedness, or preference of toppings on a pizza should have any impact on the job they can do. The only deciding factor should be: are you able to do this job.

If the qualifications to be in a combat arms MOS is to Ruck 12 miles with a 35 pound ruck, get 75% in each event on a PT test, carry a 150 pound dummy 500 meters, and qualify expert on the range with their assigned weapon, awesome. If a female can do it, let her do it. There is no reason to keep women out of that job. It is the men in those units with the issues. So long as the standards to do such a job don't change.

An example I continue to go back to is a female sued a fire department about 15 years ago because one of the qualifications was to carry a 100 lbs dummy down a ladder, claiming it was gender biased. She won the case.

I am all for equal opportunity, so long as the person who is doing the job truly is the right person for the job.

Response by MAJ Bill Darling made Sep 17 at 2014 1:16 PM

2014-09-17T13:16:39-04:00

The BS started when the DoD began integration in 1976. The US military, from the inception, has set different standards (or the euphemism "goals" if you prefer) which ensures their current proportion of the military, of course with the idea of growing that number.

If ending the BS is the objective, then we can start by treating women like men, quit walking on eggshells, quit praising them endlessly while ignoring the shortcomings, and all without regard for how many comprise the armed forces.

Response by SGM Dan Cartwright made Oct 1 at 2014 6:18 PM

2014-10-01T18:18:52-04:00

I can't believe there is even much discussion about ;women in combat. Then again, I hold to a Christian/biblical worldview about just about everything, as does my wife, who was a soldier when we met nearly 40 years ago

Response by SPC David S. made Oct 1 at 2014 6:34 PM

2014-10-01T18:34:43-04:00

Not saying there's not a solution but what if a female is pregnant or just had a baby. This certainly will have to be figured out. Maybe not pull the trigger just yet but at least flip the safety to the off position.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Oct 1 at 2014 6:37 PM

2014-10-01T18:37:12-04:00

Since it is pretty much already an inevitability I wish we could move on to the discussion about how to properly carry it out. Because as long as people keep fighting it that seems to be the only issue and no one, that I have seen, has suggested how to actually implement it. There are over 120 combat arms battalions in the Army alone, what is the best course of action? Should there be specific battalions designated for females to enter, thus ensuring a 'sisterhood'/support system, or should they just be thrown around 1 by 1 here and there? Should we start with all female units first and then integrate later? These are some of the many questions I would like to see answered about women in combat roles.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 1 at 2014 9:30 PM

2014-10-01T21:30:17-04:00

Thank you!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2014 12:47 PM

2014-10-02T12:47:51-04:00

My question to everyone is:

If having women in a direct ground combat role is so vital to the defense of our country, why have we not had them in the past?

We can go even further back, why wasn't there woman who was a Roman Legionnaire? Or instead of one Joan of Arc, why not hundreds of female knights? Or a say a regiment of grunts in history who happened to female?

You can argue whats fair, upholding standards and so forth. But you can't change biology, how men and women interact with each other.

Yes, women are in combat in a variety of jobs. Thats fine and they do great stuff. But why are so many obsessed with ensuring that women are in the Infantry, Armor & SOF? Heck many men can't cut it there ether.

Ground combat is stressful enough as it is, without throwing this dynamic in there. Shouldn't we more concerned about making our forces more lethal on reducing budget than placating political correctness?

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2014 1:41 PM

2014-12-27T13:41:58-05:00

I have no issue with it as long as there is no compromise to the standards established in those combat arms units.

Men and women must both be held accountable for their performance.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made May 1 at 2015 10:39 AM

2015-05-01T10:39:36-04:00

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/05/01/why-physical-standards-still-dog-the-fight-about-women-in-combat-units/

Why physical standards still dog the fight about women in combat units

The question of what physical standards women should meet to serve in ground combat jobs continues to dog gender integration in the military.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2015 10:41 AM

2015-05-01T10:41:24-04:00

BLUF if they can do the job let them go why not. I have worked side by side of many of females that I would go into comat with.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2015 12:47 PM

2015-05-01T12:47:52-04:00

So the white elephant in the room that no one wants to address in this is, if you want this taken seriously the first thing to do is get rid of different standards on the PT test. You can't rally for equality and demand entry into the combat arms and SOF units if you aren't willing to play by the same rules. At SFAS all ages compete in the 17-21 category regardless of age, you can't demand admission and equality but be selective about the gates to get there.

Response by SrA Daniel Hunter made May 24 at 2015 11:17 PM

2015-05-24T23:17:27-04:00

We've had women in combat for a long time. They just haven't been allowed the distinction of being in a combat designated position.

One such case is laid out in the account of Kentucky National Guard Sergeant Leigh Ann Hester.
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/hester.html

Badass of the Week: Leigh Ann Hester

The ultimate list of all badasses past and present.

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made May 24 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-05-24T23:26:14-04:00

As soon as they adjust the physical training standards across the board to not respect Gender. Why does a female soldier get paid the same when her physical training standards are easier then a male counterpart. Afte all there is "no" difference between men and women.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2015 12:55 AM

2015-05-25T00:55:21-04:00

4th woman...and how long has the award been around and how many men have gotten the award? Apples and oranges here. There has only been one woman to get the Silver Star since WWII and there have been 10s of millions who have served. Thousands of silver stars were awarded and only one went to a woman. Not a great argument.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 12:46 AM

2015-05-26T00:46:21-04:00

I say open all the positions to women, but don't for even a second lower the standards. I don't want some sub-par performer sharing a helicopter with me, so why would I feel comfortable with sub par of any other MOS? Male or female. If you cant meet the rigorous challenges of training, you have no right to be in that position. I think women will find their combat niche, but lets not confuse equality with entitlement.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2015 10:37 PM

2015-05-29T22:37:47-04:00

Don't buy into awards, I've seen females get awards(Navy Commendation Medals with Combat Distinguishing Device) mostly for just being female "in receipt of imminent danger pay". Having worked with several FET (Female Engagement Teams) their exploits are hugely exaggerated, and any mention of them living in the same conditions as riflemen is only partially true. Yes they live in Combat Outposts, but require being sent to a rear area every 45 days for at least week, they don't patrol every day much less multiple patrols/QRF, stand post and are rarely seen on working parties. It also bears mentioning that the school of infantry is an entry level school, it gets harder when you're in an infantry battalion, and ony two have made it beyond the first day of infantry officer's course. Over the last few years, I've noticed that the people most opposed to this are the people with the most ground combat experience and the people in favor generally have little to none. Infantry combat is not the place for a social experiment that continually fails in testing.

Response by SSG Paul Setterholm made May 30 at 2015 8:43 AM

2015-05-30T08:43:55-04:00

Israeli women fighters