Women in Ranger school: who is willing to look their daughter in the eyes and tell them they can't be what they want?

MSG Michael Shannon — Sun, 01 May 2016 18:27:19 -0400

I personally have three daughters, no sons, and if they ever decided to join the greatest fighting force on earth I would stand beside them.... I don't know what I would do if I had to explain to them why they couldn't fight for "daddy's flag" the way they wanted to.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made May 1 at 2016 6:34 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sun, 01 May 2016 18:34:22 -0400

1 Daughter 3 Granddaughters, I'm along for the Ride. If you want to take on a Challenge I will support you. I might Grimace and Peak thru my Fingers as I cover my eyes watching what you do. My Daughter and Granddaughters are Daredevils and I just shake my head at their antics but I realize the same was probably true about how my Shipmates saw me when I would shimmy up the Mast like a Monkey. Guess it is just Genetics.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made May 1 at 2016 7:11 PM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Sun, 01 May 2016 19:11:11 -0400

Telling a woman that they can't do something is like writing your own death warrent.

Response by Capt Walter Miller made May 1 at 2016 8:11 PM

Capt Walter Miller — Sun, 01 May 2016 20:11:11 -0400

The Marine Corps would welcome them.

Walt

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2016 9:49 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 May 2016 21:49:56 -0400

MSG Michael Shannon I do not think you will have to tell your daughters that they can not fight like they wanted to. Women will excel the same way as men.

Response by MCPO Katrina Hutcherson made May 2 at 2016 12:42 AM

MCPO Katrina Hutcherson — Mon, 02 May 2016 00:42:35 -0400

It's refreshing to see all these positive posts by men!!

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made May 2 at 2016 12:25 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Mon, 02 May 2016 12:25:33 -0400

I would mention standards have to be upheld.

Response by Cpl Mark A. Morris made May 2 at 2016 12:44 PM

Cpl Mark A. Morris — Mon, 02 May 2016 12:44:40 -0400

I support any women that wants to try out for any Victor unit. As long as the PFT is not lowered. Has it been lowered?

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made May 2 at 2016 1:53 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Mon, 02 May 2016 13:53:19 -0400

MSG Michael Shannon The issue is meeting the standards without any degradation because of gender/sex. While there certainly are some women who can meet the standards, the fact is that the vast majority do not. As a result, our liberal PC government will lower the standards for females (or for all,l so as not to appear to be favoring females) just to meet some social engineering objective, despite the impact on the ability to accomplish the mission.

What do you tell your daughters? Tell them the facts of life and that, despite what liberal/progressives want people to believe, there are two sexes... male and female ... and that is just a fact of life. Biology, physiology, psychology, sociology, etc. all play into what men and women can do. Is it fair? Maybe not, but it is life. There are many things they can do to "fight for daddy's flag", to include going to Ranger School. I would not be very proud of them if they had to have special privileges or reduced standards to achieve what they wanted to.

Response by SN Greg Wright made May 3 at 2016 3:55 AM

SN Greg Wright — Tue, 03 May 2016 03:55:08 -0400

I would stand beside you in supporting them. However, they would have to overcome physical limitations that do not care about gender, politics, religion, political correctness, or rainbows and unicorns.

Facts: Women's bone density is less than men's, ON AVERAGE. Women's respiratory capacity is less than men's, ON AVERAGE. Women's muscle mass is less than men's, ON AVERAGE. These are scientific, indisputable facts. Your religion, politics, or wishes will not change this. This is not misogyny. This is science. Demonstrably factual. Why do I capitalize 'on average'? There will always be statistical outliers in any group. Meaning, there's going to be women who do, in fact, measure up, and get the job done, and earn their tab/trident/title, whatever. But those numbers will NEVER approach parity with males.

Sorry, but dropping a coke can [login to see] times will NEVER make it fall upwards. There are just physical things in the universe that cannot be altered, despite ideology.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 8:24 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 May 2016 08:24:18 -0400

The standards have been lowered by the pressure of political beliefs. The standards of the rangers were set to prepare the soldiers for the tasks required of them. If a woman can meet the original standards with no modifications or prior preparation just like everyone else then she should be a ranger. But when it is determined that it will happen months prior that just insults all the soldiers that have worked hard to make it the years before. Here is some information I have found. • Women were first sent to a special two-week training in January to get them ready for the school, which didn't start until April 20. Once there they were allowed to repeat the program until they passed – while men were held to a strict pass/fail standard. • Afterward they spent months in a special platoon at Fort Benning,GA. getting, among other things, nutritional counseling and full-time training with a Ranger. • While in the special platoon they were taken out to the land navigation course – a very tough part of the course that is timed – on a regular basis. The men had to see it for the first time when they went to the school. • Once in the school they were allowed to repeat key parts – like patrols – while special consideration was not given to men. • A two-star general said "A woman will graduate Ranger School," the general told subordinates during preparing for the first females to attend a "gender integrated assessment" of the grueling combat leadership course starting April 20, "At least one will get through."

Response by SPC Steven Depuy made May 5 at 2016 8:37 AM

SPC Steven Depuy — Thu, 05 May 2016 08:37:02 -0400

If they can do the job, I have no problem with it. I fear in this PC world that has infested the military, people are going to get into positions based upon gender and not ability. There are some bad ass women in this world who could kick my ass any time they wanted, and be an asset on the battlefield in combat. But just like there are men who can't hack Ranger school, there will be women. Will they be extended special favors out of fear of being called out as harassing them because they are women? That's the mess in it all. I am too fat and old to be worried about it, having a son who is a combat veteran, I just want to be assured he had the best people with him, and not people appointed to make things PC when he was deployed to Iraq. I guess to me, as long as they don't let them hit from the red tee's, I am fine with it.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 9:12 AM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 May 2016 09:12:16 -0400

To answer your question, yes...I would tell them that. And here's why: I hope every father would have the testicular fortitude to be honest with their children and explain the difference between "shoulda" and "coulda". I have 2 daughters. I will support them in anything they do, but I won't tell them a fairy tail if one of them decides they want to be the next middle-linebacker for the Dallas Cowboys. My point is, for some reason...our culture has decided that actually acknowledging the differences in the genders is somehow hateful and that telling kids "we are all just the same regardless of what sex, race, height, weight, IQ, ability, etc." which is so obviously false any child could recognize it as blowing smoke up their 4th point. The result is grown ups who believe they are entitled to use the women's latrine when they are biologically men because "I WANT TO". Well...sorry...but just like Mic said...you don't always get what you WANT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 9:51 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 May 2016 09:51:31 -0400

First, apparently you lack the intestinal fortitude to say no. Secondly, I am unwilling to make a policy change that will affect only the very few that decide to do this. Third, we all face things that we can't do. The quadriplegic that will never run again. The fat kid that can't join the military until he loses the wait. We have always made decisions based upon the needs of the Army, not the wants, desires, or wims of the few.

Response by MAJ Bill Darling made May 5 at 2016 11:30 AM

MAJ Bill Darling — Thu, 05 May 2016 11:30:47 -0400

Yes. I suppose the same way I would explain to a naturalized citizen why he or she cannot be president. You may very well be qualified but there are many other good reasons for an already exclusive group must remain exclusive. It's not always about her.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made May 5 at 2016 12:00 PM

SGT Dave Tracy — Thu, 05 May 2016 12:00:52 -0400

Regardless about how I feel about it, I wouldn't tell my daughter she can't do it (besides, the Army has spoken-my opinion is only a non-weight bearing opinion), but I damn sure would tell her that graduating from school--whether Ranger, or Infantry, etc--is NOT an end unto itself, but a beginning; even though politicians and activists pay no attention to the life of such a soldier AFTER graduation. They all seem to treat graduation as a goal line to cross when in fact it's the starting line. My kid would know about the life she would face after graduation and she can make her choice then.

Response by MSG Michael Shannon made May 5 at 2016 2:55 PM

MSG Michael Shannon — Thu, 05 May 2016 14:55:46 -0400

Just so everyone here knows I did just receive some interesting information on a new program that may or may not have been an answer to this "issue." It's call the Occupation Physical Assessment Test or OPAT. It is going to be implemented and requires that all Soldiers who want to reclass / reenlist take the OPAT. It consists of the following: standing long jump, seated power throw, strength dead lift, and interval aerobic run. I don't have any intel on the stats required but it does have the weight requirements for lifting in each physical demand category.

Response by SFC John Mandrioli made May 7 at 2016 9:12 AM

SFC John Mandrioli — Sat, 07 May 2016 09:12:49 -0400

I feel SFC Shannon has a good point and as long as any Soldier male or female can meet the standard (the same standard) there is no good reason to hold them back. My last deployment was civil affairs we had 3 males and 1 female on each team and out of six teams only one female was a hinderence and several Male LTs almost got us killed trying to be to gung-ho . Just my two cents

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2016 12:16 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 May 2016 12:16:54 -0400

Would you protect your house with a weiner dog? They are just made differently.

I have no doubt that there are a few women that would meet the standards of being a Ranger but if there are so few women that can do it than is it worth the cost of training women. How much does it cost to send someone through Ranger school? If there are to be women Rangers than there needs to be women standards for women Rangers. Women are just built differently, usually smaller and weaker than men. That is just life and in life you can't always get what you want. If there is going to be one standard than the standards need to be changed to fit both men and women but are you really helping when you adjust the standards. We need to have the most efficient and affective fighting force not the most equal because we want the strongest and best fighters where it counts. There is no equality in war. Just winners and losers.

Response by SGT Robert George made May 7 at 2016 1:43 PM

SGT Robert George — Sat, 07 May 2016 13:43:10 -0400

Well your daughters have similar DNA and live under your roof till adult age Im presuming so she is going to carry a large portion of your thoughts and beliefs herself .. none of us succeed at everything and that shouldn't keep anyone from trying either .. Just keep the training standards the same and let the chips fall were they may.. everyone cant make the cut thats just the way it is ,,I guess thats the problem with this PC nobody wants to face the truth when it somewhat pertains to them!!!

Response by LTC John Wilson made May 7 at 2016 4:11 PM

LTC John Wilson — Sat, 07 May 2016 16:11:37 -0400

As a father of TWO daughters, I can look them in the eye and tell them that service in combat arms (save perhaps Aviation) is not where they need to be. While we like to recognize the individual and their liberty, we must remember that LIBERTY is NOT the freedom to be or do whatever the individual WANTS. Rather, it is the freedom to do what one OUGHT to do within society as a whole...it is not ALL about YOU!

Our system of Law recognizes that ALL are born with equal value in the eyes of the Law, but not all are (or should be) the "same." Each is born with a set of specific set of biological abilities and Natural talents which will invariably narrow our personal role in the bigger picture, yet every individual's appropriate contribution to society is equally important. Finding these appropriate matches are keys to "pursuing happiness."

Women have successfully completed Ranger school and served in roles that put them in harm's way. Just because they CAN, does not mean that they should. There are several reasons for this that transcend individual desire. I will relate ONE of these.

When it comes to the he perpetuation of our society, young women (biologically) remain indispensable -- especially those who possess the patriotic fervour to personally defend it. Men, by stark contrast, remain biologically expendable. This is why we draw the "short straw" when it comes to risking life and limb to defend society.

Without sufficient offspring, no nation may survive. What the woman brings to the table in that regard is rare, and her window to contribute short. The male contribution is plentiful and he may contribute for decades after a woman's "biological clock" has stopped ticking. Now consider that a female combat arms Soldier -- in her prime, child bearing years -- must put this all on hold to bear arms instead. And if ths manages to complete a 20-year career with multiple deployments, what is the likelihood that she will have managed her contribution to the child replacement rate necessary for our society to continue past the next generation (before you answer that, consider that the Europeans have had to invite North African and Middle Eastern immigration to keep their labor pool large enough to sustain their economies). Therefore, in terms of national survival, does it make sense to throw open combat roles -- let alone the draft -- to young women for a bastardized definition of "equality?"

Every person who has had a positive impact on world history has at least one thing in common -- they all had a MOTHER. Now consider the historic impact of each of those mothers... Now consider the impact if those mothers had pursued other, self-centered interests that prevented their motherhood...and those historic "greats" had never been born.

Response by MSG Don Burt made May 8 at 2016 1:43 PM

MSG Don Burt — Sun, 08 May 2016 13:43:27 -0400

I for one would not give them a go on that choice...if they are old enough to go in without parent consent, then that's their choice. Personally, women shouldn't be in combat situ's...If the Army alters the Standard in any way, shape or form, then I wouldn't want to be in the Rangers or any other branch that keeps changing ever which way the wind blows...everything is too PC....if it makes you feel good etc. etc. I would prefer to depend on a man in combat who passed the correct Standards and not those who passed with watered down Standards!

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 10:35 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 May 2016 10:35:09 -0400

I have NO problem with them joining the fighting force...as long as they can do EXACTLY the same standards the men are held to.

The problem is, this is EXACTLY what was said years ago when women were FIRST allowed to join the military and then later we saw where they created separate PT tests and other standards. Now I am NOT saying that they WILL do this...only that the powers that be have had a track record of doing so.

If they want to do it and they CAN do it, I say LET them do it. But maintain the current standards which make them the great fighting force they are!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 1:53 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 May 2016 01:53:36 -0400

I don't understand why this issue even has legs. Transgendered individuals have been using public bathrooms without problems long before this whole thing blew up

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2017 1:45 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Jul 2017 13:45:54 -0400

If they can truly meet the standards ?. I would not want to be that women or man commander that has to tell any service member his daughter or son died because a piece of equipment broke or malfactioned. Like a car or heavy piece of machinery. We and I mean all of the us would quickly expect and demand even if the accident or incident could have been avoided because any person or persons forgot to put a part in a machine because they were high or drunk . Why is there men and women olylimpics. Because women and men are different. Dead is dead is dead. If a the standards are exactly the same and not lowered I am for it. My opinion is I think a all women force or group would work. I have yet to see without doubt evidence that men and women are the same. All feelings aside if that is possible???. Set the so-called facts down. No one has the courage to tell the truth there is not one untated study I have seen out of the thousand's I have read . How could have I read that it has literally taken most of my life to injest that much information. The saddest thing about all those reports I injected in my lifestyle was? I most of my time proving they were false ,fabricated on made up data or evidence. How can I prove all of this true with one word gender . Answer me this and I will forever leave this site. And please not with answers of hate , insults , and sheer anger. Like the last young lady spewing nothing but what I stated above. I don't won,t waste my time with that. Were adults at least I hope we are . As cold as what I am saying is true concern , hope , and love come from telling the. Truth even if it hurts. Enough of all that. My question is. When can a man be treated completely fair when it comes to sexual harassment case ? He can,t it soley based on women,s perception. The law is not based on the facts and not what actually happen. It is solely based on person,s feelings. And it is only that way for women and not men. Don,t ask don,t tell law only applied to men not women. Those who went to Iraq or Afaganstan lately. General order 1 No men can have relations with females. That does not apply to females. Bet you did not know that I not being arrongant it is just the truth. Please no insults swearing so and so on...... Ect. I just want one incident of a man and women being the same phyically mentally , and spiritually. Do I believe it is possible for men and to be the same yes I do but not in this world but the next. Yes in a perfect world. Some day

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2017 6:19 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Jul 2017 18:19:33 -0400

Tell them the same thing that those dad's tell their daughters or sons when they can't fly aircraft because their color blind or too short or can't join because they have ashtma, etc... Life is not fair and you can't always get what you want and if you eat too much ice cream you get fat.

What to tell your children. If they are of military age, then they are adults and need to learn to accept things that are beyond their control. I'm not saying give up on a dream. If you do what you can and never give up its possible that your dreams might come true but this belief that everyone deserves something only makes things worse. Not everyone gets a trophy in life.

Response by Cpl Bernard Bates made Mar 17 at 2019 12:54 AM

Cpl Bernard Bates — Sun, 17 Mar 2019 00:54:03 -0400

My daughter didn't know for sure what she wanted to do. When she enrolled in a university She picked out several pamphlets on different vocations. She looked at them and decided she wanted to be a music therapist. In January she got her PHD in Music therapy. She was never interested in the Military, She liked Music and helping others. Semper Fi.