Worst Feeling? Explaining to a Soldier why the COC felt the need to deny their award.

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 11:33:50 -0500

I was reading through a few other awards threads on here, and it got me thinking about all the awards I've submitted Soldier's for that have either been lost by S-1 shops, denied due to "insufficient rank" or the quota system.<div><br></div><div>I can't help but feel that, regardless of the reason, that Soldier, deep down, just got a little bit more bitter and resentful towards the military, and that always breaks my heart slightly...</div><div><br></div><div>What do you guys tell yourselves in these situations? How do you rationalize this, or try to take away some of the sting when a deserving Soldier will not be receiving an award for reasons you can't enthusiastically explain?</div><div> </div><div>UPDATE</div><div> </div><div>Also, a follow up question would be: "what would be an ideal awards processing system to you?". What would implementation look like?</div>

Response by SFC James Baber made Dec 28 at 2013 12:17 PM

SFC James Baber — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 12:17:44 -0500

<p>I actually have dealt with through many deployments over the years, and was completely honest with the Soldier (s), I would tell them that due to unwritten rules within the higher echelons, that many of the awards were either disapproved or downgraded because of the politics, which we have all seen and experienced. Most were disappointed, but they understood and felt better because I didn't BS them about it and also relieved them of the responsibility that it wasn't their fault or due to anything they had done.</p><p><br></p><p>Being straightforward and honest with your Soldiers has always been my policy and it has always worked for me with my Soldiers, my peers and seniors not always.</p><p><br></p><p>I have had 1SGs/CSMs and Officers give me an earful saying I can't tell Soldiers this or that on many situations and issues, but I always counteract it by saying if it was me I would want the truth, isn't that part of integrity and wouldn't you want the same, and they usually can't respond after that, I have been doing that from CPL on up.</p>

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Dec 28 at 2013 12:26 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 12:26:29 -0500

I went through the same situation with one of my "underlings" last year when he PCS'd from a TRADOC unit where he performed the duties of my position, as well as assist in the mentoring of me once I came on board as the Sr Instructor and when I submitted him for an MSM with quantified bullet comments, it was downgraded at BDE because he was only a SSG. I explained to him that all levels up through BN had endorsed and recommended the award as is, but due to "politics" at BDE it was downgraded. In the end he was happy to be going back to a line-unit after teaching at the schoolhouse for almost 4 years. Unfortunately politics most always trumps a deserving award.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Dec 28 at 2013 4:15 PM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 16:15:10 -0500

I think that it is important to sit that Soldier down and explain to him/her exactly what happened, much like SFC Swartz explained. I believe one way to curb that bitterness is for that Soldier to totally understand the awards process and to understand that decisions are made throughout that awards process. I believe that it is important that Soldiers and NCOs understand the nuances of the awards process to that they may become more well-rounded leaders and then they will be more equipped to answer those questions when approached by their Soldiers...

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2013 6:03 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 18:03:36 -0500

I never got an explanation fully on my last deployment and frankly it hurt my feelings for lack of a better word.

Basic situation: I got a 1/1 fully justified NCOER with great bullets and constant great comments from my BN leadership as a SFC in a 1SG position. Company did great things.

I was given an ARCOM (the only 1SG to receive an ARCOM) because the BDE CDR saw me in the FOB gym what he considered too much. Yet my company was still one of the best companies around for responsiveness etc (in other words not dropping tasks etc).

Yet when he denied it didn't or refused to tell me why. It wasn't until I found out later why.

In the end I still left the position with the best NCOERs of my career and my mentor, my BN CSM, was very happy with my work and that's all that mattered.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2013 6:42 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 18:42:52 -0500

I've dealt with this myself when I was a SSG. Recommended for a MSM for PCS. After 14yrs, 7 deployments, 5 years being rated as a SFC. Was simple when made to division it was in writing why is a SSG being put in for a MSM. I kinda lost faith a little. Even though all my NCOER was great. Pcs NCOER was even 4 excellence and 1/1.

Then watched as a couple soldiers pcs'd and for hard work they got aam. I told them same happened to me and no matter what don't let it get them down.

Fast Forward im in TRADOC now and I've seen other SFC get their MSM denied. There was no doubt they deserved it either. Politics in awards sucks. But its something we live with.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2013 7:55 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 19:55:56 -0500

Thats when it is the NCOs (or first line) job to print the regulation stating that you can not reject an award for these reasons, take it to the S shop and make sure it goes up to higher. If higher does the right thing and it still happens to get downgraded then so be it. Getting a downgraded award is still better than no award based on "ILLEGAL" quotas and rank.

Response by SGT Michael Harman made Dec 28 at 2013 8:05 PM

SGT Michael Harman — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 20:05:58 -0500

I served in Iraq in 2004-2005.  Me and another soldier was wounded while there by a rocket, took our 15 day leave and come back to country and finished out the tour.  The other soldier, who was hurt worse than I was still soldiered on and had a medic come by each night to change a pack dressing.  Still, we got up every day and went out and completed countless missions around the Baghdad AO.  We were both SGT/E-5's and put in for Bronze Stars for meritorious service.  Both were signed off all the way up the chain until it got to the CG, who just wrote denied in the box for both and downgraded each to an ARCOM.  When it was explained to us why, it was because "Our unit had to many BS awards".  Well, our unit was also involved in about everything during that rotation.  Had a SSG acquaintance of mine who was put in Division HQ to read the weather forecast to all who wanted it over the radio for the entire time he was there and he was awarded the BS.  He was put there cause he was incapable of doing his job in the first place for being a SH*T BAG and the higher chain of command wouldn't chapter him out prior to deployment.  Its all political and rank based. 

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 28 at 2013 8:41 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 20:41:05 -0500

I can't help but wonder where this quota nonsense came from... It's not like we are suffering from a metal shortage in this country.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2013 8:43 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 20:43:12 -0500

First off, don't tell the soldier what you have done. I myself have been recommended for an award that my 1sg had no right to down grade, but my 1st line leader allowed it to happen. Now in my position, I've recommended my soldiers for awards that my co or 1sg have denied and I walked into their offices and told them<div>To their faces they had no right to deny, then told them if they read regulations and expected me to uphold the standard they would do what is right and send the award to the approving or denying authority!!! Never tell a soldier that you have put her/ him in for an award until it has been approved! Don't be the cause for bitterness against command!!!</div>

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2013 9:07 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:07:27 -0500

Thats when it is the NCOs (or first line) job to print the regulation stating that you can not reject an award for these reasons, take it to the S shop and make sure it goes up to higher. If higher does the right thing and it still happens to get downgraded then so be it, but annotate it. Getting a downgraded award is still better than no award based on "ILLEGAL" quotas and rank.

Asking that an award be rewritten is another atrocity, awards should be submitted if they require downgrade so be it, but don't send it back to me and simply say change it to one lower, but keep the same bullets. Thats not how its supposed to work. I want it in writing on the 638 why you think my soldier doesn't deserve this award, when we never even saw you outside of you warm CHU during this whole "exercise"! All in all commanders are scared to put their name on something that isn't right, they dont give certain awards to certain ranks we all know that, but they don't have the guts to annotate that on the 638 either, because they know it is wrong and out of regs and self incriminating!

So my point if you cant sign your name to it for the world to see then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Response by SFC Gary Fox made Dec 28 at 2013 9:36 PM

SFC Gary Fox — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:36:39 -0500

I had a young SGT who was one heck of an NCO and analyst. She was PCS'ing and I put her in for an ARCOM, which I felt she fully deserved. The 368 came back from the BN CDR who told me to rewrite it as an AAM because she was an E-5. I refused and then was told if I didn't, the NCO would not receive an award.

As an E-6 and E-7 I mostly served in E-8 and E-9 positions. I served as the Task Force Sergeant Major on a 6-month deployment in Iraq where we conducted an OPEVAL for the first successful IED defeat persistent aerial surveillance platform. My Task Force CDR was a COL at the time I submitted my packet and submitted a 368 for a Legion of Merit for my retirement award. It was downgraded to an MSM because I was an E-7.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 28 at 2013 9:46 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 21:46:25 -0500

This may sound controversial but walk with me for a minute.  Should Command be the approval for awards?  The only rational for approving, disapproving, or downgrading and award is the write up, correct?  How about all awards be sent to centralized approval board?  That takes out all external influence.  The write up shouldn't even include the persons rank.  The board reads the write up and says yes this merits this award or not.<div>If command has nothing to do with the promotion of it's senior ranks (centralized promotion boards) then why include the awards?</div><div>The rational for one excludes the other.</div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2013 10:03 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 22:03:00 -0500

I have seen awards denied for many reasons and downgraded for others. I for one am absolutely against someone getting a PCS award for doing what was expected of you. Awards are for above and beyond not what you were supposed to do in the first place.

However to give the same award to someone who has spent a year out on patrol in a combat zone as you would to that OPS SGT who sat in an air conditioned TOC is disgraceful.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2013 10:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 22:32:56 -0500

I was put up for an MSM and denied because I was not an E-7, even though the bullets supported an MSM.  I don't think its fair and I can see where the Soldier can be a little bit more resentful. It is not the first time it has happened and probably won't be the last. In the end I ended up with an ARCOM. 

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Dec 28 at 2013 11:54 PM

Cpl Ray Fernandez — Sat, 28 Dec 2013 23:54:32 -0500

In my platoon, I took our comm vehicles and made sure each one was fully mission capable after months of them being neglected with multiple mechanical issues (we had vehicles that were SL items to our radios). One of my SSgts thought I should be awarded a Navy Achievement Medal, but my Comm Maintenance Officer who I never got along with refused it because he thought if I was going to get out it was a waste of an award. Everyone in my platoon who knew was in disbelief over what happened. In the end that was one of the biggest things that made up my mind to not reenlist. The day I started my terminal leave, my Company CO stopped by since I was his company comm tech when he was the Company CO of one of the line companies. He in front of the platoon got on him about why I wasn't reenlisting, and everyone saw my Maintenance Officer grovel and search for words. An award may not seem like much, but to the individual it may make a world of difference to the individual, and if you have to tell someone why their award was denied make sure you choose the words you use carefully.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2013 12:25 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Dec 2013 00:25:56 -0500

The award system should be gotten rid of. I don't see how a SFC, MSG, 1SG, SGM, CSM, MAJ and higher gets a BSM for sitting at a desk for 12 months when a PVT who completed several combat missions and participated in 48 hr fire fights gets an ARCOM. Awarding is more a popularity contest. My last rotation the other PSG was reading his award and he stated I didn't do any of this. He was telling the truth, It was everything I had done. I got an ARCOM because I was disliked by the CMD, he got a BSM, even left Afghanistan early.

Response by SFC Derrick Gordon made Dec 29 at 2013 9:31 AM

SFC Derrick Gordon — Sun, 29 Dec 2013 09:31:52 -0500

Want
to hear a story, I had to retire from the Army because I didn't pass my
tape for that month plus my chain wanted me gone but that is another
story. I was in TRADOC senior instructor position so my boss was an
civilian DoD he did the write up not the unit because I didn't work for
them, I work for the school house. After 23 years of military service he
put me in for an MSM, the commander told me that the 1SG didn't think I
should be put in for a MSM and should down grade it to an ARCOM because
I didn't pass my current tape test. We both thought how dumb can they
both be, MSN is for the 23 years of service, not for what is happening
now during that time. When I got my award and saw that the captain did
downgraded it to an ARCOM, but the BN CDR denied that and recommended
that it stay an MSM and wrote in the comment box "After 23 years of
military service he deserve an MSM" along with the BDE CDR and the
Commanding General. I thought to myself how stupid were the 1SG and
Commander to recommend something like this and thought they would get
this pass. When I finial out I had the last laugh and that award along
with the back of the write up is fame hanging in my office and when
folks see it they think the same.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2013 2:11 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Dec 2013 14:11:34 -0500

I believe that as a leader if you set goals for your Soldiers and tell them BLUF what is expected of them and include the part about receiving awards, I think that they will be more receptive and understand when that day arrives (ie; PCS, ETS.....)

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2013 2:18 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Dec 2013 14:18:41 -0500

I agree with you Battle!  I know that we should not come to work and do our job to get a certain award, but I do feel that an award is the least we can do for our Soldiers who make our job easier and who by the way is the reason why we even have a job as leaders.  I try to let my Soldiers know that when we do our job and do it at 100%, people outside looking in will notice.  For those who don't care and do not notice, shame on them.

Response by MSG Phil Herndon made Dec 29 at 2013 8:18 PM

MSG Phil Herndon — Sun, 29 Dec 2013 20:18:48 -0500

In my experience, no one complains about awards until they don't get what THEY think they deserve. If you want your Soldiers to get a better award, the learn how to write it. If you think a SPC deserves a better award, then use your open door policy and get some senior help.

If you think your BDE CDR isn't doing his job right, go ask him. If you don't have the grapes to knock on the door and ask, it isn't ever getting fixed. Chances are, you will be shown how there is something dumb in the language or write up that is unjustified.

In my entire career of submitting awards, I only ever had one down graded. I've seen plenty of others get downgraded. Mostly because the leader didn't take the time to make sure the write up went through. In OIF, I flew to BN, saw the CSM, and said "MY Team Member is effing awesome. How do I get him the award I think he deserves?" He spent an hour and a half with me showing me what an approved BSM for a Team Member should look like. Turns out only two TMs got them that tour from my company.

When you take a look at the write ups, they aren't downgraded until they get to the approving authority. At a MSM or BSM level, that's a division commander. If you are such a popular SFC that the Div CDR knows you, there is a good chance you've done something to get his attention.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 30 at 2013 7:59 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 30 Dec 2013 07:59:21 -0500

I am aware as I type in this thread that despite our awards shortcomings, we here in the Army are still fortunate in that we will receive triple the awards our sister service counterparts will.. All things considered, we are still very fortunate.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 30 at 2013 12:59 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 30 Dec 2013 12:59:52 -0500

Also, a follow up question would be: "what would be an ideal awards processing system to you?". What would implementation look like?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2013 2:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Dec 2013 14:32:55 -0500

Since I've been in the army (almost 11 years) I've come to see that the awards process can be at times (if not most times) flawed due in part to 'standards' set in place by the chain of command. I've seen Staff and senior NCOs get awards (ie MSM, BS etc) and really didnt do anything or enough to warrant it whereas you have soldiers who bust their fourth-point-of-contact and only get an AAM or ARCOM if they're lucky. Case in point: 2 soldiers, 1 E-7 one E-5 went TDY on a critical mission.....after it was all said and done and the smoke cleared both were put in for MSMs (both pretty much did the EXACT same thing) but they shot the E-5's award down to an ARCOM. The justification: E-5's dont get MSM's. His 1st line was livid to the point of tears. He explained to him that despite the outcome he knows the you (E-5) know what you did and you dont need an award to validate how professional and competent you are at your job; especially when everyone around you already see's it.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 30 at 2013 9:13 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 30 Dec 2013 21:13:42 -0500

I'm loving the feedback, and want to add the following;

If you were a 10 star general for a day, how would you propose fixing the situation?

Response by SFC Lamont Womack made Jan 3 at 2014 6:25 AM

SFC Lamont Womack — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 06:25:12 -0500

It sounds like we have all experienced this situation. All I ask is that each of you remember what this feels like so when you get in a leadership position you improve the process. I think a lot of leaders forget where they came from and just fall in line when they get in leadership positions. I remember every negative experience I've had in the Army. I keep them in mind when I have to make any "tough" decisions or recommendations.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Feb 5 at 2014 6:59 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 06:59:21 -0500

Worst feeling in the world is trying to explain to a Soldier how somebody - miles away from the scene and not even there in most cases, riding a desk in a comfortable office - can deny a service award.

Not only do I feel for the Soldier, but even worse is knowing I did my best, it wasn't enough. The Chain of Command, in general, and this 1SG in particular, let that Soldier down. Pisses me off.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2014 3:09 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:09:21 -0500

I think the answer to your follow up question would be to just submit the write up. No personal information should be used in the determination in the award. This takes away all bias views.

Response by CSM David Heidke made Feb 5 at 2014 5:53 PM

CSM David Heidke — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 17:53:14 -0500

I think that the form has the right spaces to explain why and who denied an award.

I have issues with Officers in the CoC that refuse to downgrade an award.

For instance, an award is submitted to give a Soldier an MSM but the board at BDE doesn't want to approve it. Rather than downgrade the request with sufficient rationale, they simply take the easy way out and reject the award.

An award should never simply be "denied" but they often are.

Response by SFC Daniel Alcivar made Feb 5 at 2014 6:08 PM

SFC Daniel Alcivar — Wed, 05 Feb 2014 18:08:27 -0500

As a prior PSNCO I found that there were many awards recommendations submitted with little knowledge as to the requirements and preparations from the supervisors submitting such awards. We must take time to become knowledgeable about the requirements and procedures before submitting an award this will prevent embarrassment at the supervisor level and mixing feeling at the recipient level. At the PAC we cross all t's and rewrite recommendations before going final draft and presentation at the BN level. We then get scrutinize by the local Milpo before goes to DA. This is back in the days 20 years ago. HOOOOAH

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2014 7:08 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Feb 2014 07:08:38 -0500

Hearing these stories makes me cringe.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 10:49 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 10:49:23 -0500

I recently came off of a mobilization where end of tour awards were a very big sore spot. Once the smoke cleared, there were 3 companies with 4 MSMs each, and an HHD with 14 MSMs. We were told that we could only submit 4 per company. My CO submitted more than that, and one of our Soldiers overheard several individuals saying they were going to send them back due to grammar issues. One MSM (which was eventually approved) was sent back because there was too much "fluff" but the same "fluff" was straight off this Soldier's NCOER.

Not once did anyone in the "approval section" came straight out and said we submitted too many of any type of award; they just sent them back for "correction" until the deadline for submission had passed.

I have two firsthand experiences that lead me to believe that rank was the only thing awards were based upon. First - my CO was on con leave, and I was the acting CO. I was reviewing awards, and noticed that one individual's had been returned with a note "should this be at least an ARCOM" (he was awarded an AAM) and Second - after the awards ceremony, I was approached by the BN XO, who offered congratulations and added, "that's a prestigious award, *for a lieutenant*."

Now that my rant is over, here is what I think should have happened (and what needs to happen):

The recommender submits the award through their CoC. It is sent to S-1 who validates the personnel data ONLY. Then it moves through the review process. There are boxes on the 638 for each approver in the chain to either approve or disapprove, upgrade or downgrade. No one should be reviewing awards for grammar and spelling once it is submitted. If the Company Commander and 1SG don't know basic English, then they should be willing to ask someone for help BEFORE it is submitted. You should not have to write at a Pulitzer Prize winning level to submit an award.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 11:55 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:55:23 -0500

I agree with SSG Spratlin I have seen far too many awards that were downgraded because of rank

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 3:52 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 15:52:27 -0500

Awards are just another reason to be looked at as a position of status. I tell my soldiers when they get an award it is well deserved and when one is submitted and unapproved or denied that they did good work and unfortunately the "ARMY" didtn see it that way. Awards are another bragging right that quite frankly is not important. What is important is knowing we as a military collective do our best daily to achieve maximum results with minimum assets. If everyone who joined were out to attain awards and recognition we would have allot of Officers and not enough blue collar to lead the next large military conflict. I am sorry for those who are well deserving but did i really deserve 5 ARCOMS for five deployments???? As a mid-grade leader I dont feel a deployment warrants a award. I do beleive recognition is relevant given the task or mission is outside the MOS or responsibility initially given to any individual. For example saving someone from a burning home; saving a battle buddy from O.D. or Intoxication; preventing a assault unlawfully on an known person; etc. But to be given reward after being overseas for years or doing our JOB is not responsible leadership it is just lazy. It sends the message that if you deploy you get more cash, free food and laundry, and have another stripe; possibly ARCOMS, AAM's, Bronze Stars, Air Medals. I am familiar with some Army personnel who have 6 Air Medals ridiculous yes you flew I got it. DO you really need all those...???? The Army and senior leadership beleive so. I would rather keep it simple and to the point and make it cheaper and just let me wear my Army Servie Ribbon...its cheaper and still represents a standard.

My hope is that these lazy carbon copy awards go away and we become more individualized in our recognition of troops and leaders who really do go ABOVE and BEYOND the normal daily/duty scope. PRE-911 did drop awards like this.

Response by CPT Jacob Swartout made Jul 1 at 2014 9:46 PM

CPT Jacob Swartout — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 21:46:50 -0400

What is really bad is when S1 said the BN CDR would have signed an ARCOM had the unit submitted one on time. Instead the NCO was too lazy and didn't bother doing anything until 2 weeks out for that Soldier. So after 6+ yrs, the Soldier was given an AAM instead.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2014 6:59 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Aug 2014 18:59:30 -0400

SFC Michael Hasbun As a Staff Sergeant, you have to use this as a learning point for you to remember for later on when you're standing in front of your unit as the First Sergeant. When that time comes remember what your past leaders taught you, that you will NOT do or allow to happen to one of your Soldiers. When that day comes, let them know that you will flip hell over high water to take care of them....when they are right. I was fortunate to really enjoy the frustrations of being a HHB First Sergeant. On several ocassions a missing or incorrect awards issue came up and the S1 didn't respond as I felt they should have. I informed the CSM I was holding a formation for S1 Section at 5PM. With the CSM standing at the rear of the formation, I let the PS NCOIC know that none of them were going home until it was fixed and I had it in my hand. The CSM then walked up beside me and said, "let this be a lesson to you all. Even though S1 belongs to the me, S1, XO and Cdr...you also work for every First Sergeant in the Battalion. I suggest you fix it and don't let it happen again." Best CSM I ever had...Ft. Bragg NC 1992. Your time will come when you can do what you feel isn't being done. Hang in there! Your head is definitely in the right place.

I never agreed with the mindset that an award should be based on a Soldiers rank. For example: A Sergeant (E5) being disapproved for an MSM because he was only a Sergeant. I call BS. I had a young Sergeant as my Rear Detachment NCOIC during Desert Storm. While we were gone, one of my Soldier's trailer caught fire and burned to the ground. He and his family lost everything. This young Sergeant went out and had stores from the Mall donating cloths, he went to the local radio station telling the story about the family's loss. A local company replaced their mobile home, donations went to fund he set up for them. This young Sergeant went above and beyound what would have been imagined. As soon as we returned, I put him in for an Meritorious Service Medal. Some said that was too high an award, so supported it. My Bn XO did not support nor did the Bn Cdr. The CSM did support. I was pissed and went to see the Bde Cdr, who did APPROVE. After it went thru all the channels then....he got the MSM in the end.
There are ups and downs to every system in the Army, we have to learn to deal with them as they are because wishing, hoping for a change has no impact on today. Learn from them and as you climb the promotion ladder and obtain more responsibility learn how to make the system work and also how work the systems that are in place. Often at the end of our systems, there is a person with rank who can impact the outcome, either against you or for you.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 18 at 2014 1:59 AM

SFC Mark Merino — Mon, 18 Aug 2014 01:59:44 -0400

The worst thing is having to say that a family member died.
Are we saying that all avenues have been exhausted already and we still get the C of C deer in the headlights? I don't sugar coat it. I let the troop know that (if deserving) it should have been approved and that it isn't a dead issue. I have waited many an hour outside a brigade CSM's door to let him know that I would be meeting with the CDR's adjutant to get on the his schedule. I had the commanders own unit's EOR reports with me that had all the stats for the unit (hopefully showing proof of unfairness). I would go as far as to ask for decisions to be placed in writing for so there is no misinterpreting/misunderstanding. Above all else.... SUBMIT! Get that "downgraded" block checked. Worst case scenario, you can show the troop that it was submitted and explain that it still makes it into the records. At least the higher powers will see that the troop was put in for an accommodation, even if it didn't get approved. I would also tell my troop that if he slacked off in any way during all this running around, then he must have just been working hard for recognition and if I finally got it approved, it would go straight up their pooper.

Response by BG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2014 2:24 PM

BG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Aug 2014 14:24:19 -0400

At the risk of getting a lot of "thumbs down", let me explain awards for the guy who has to approve or deny a lot of them. For the record, my philosophy is one that I heard when I was a 1LT, "everyone leaves with an award or Art 15". I have encouraged, through an official policy letter, the attitude that awards should be liberally given for PCS moves and specific achievement. I went 12 years in a row, of my 29 year career, without getting an award due to lazy commanders and don't want that to happen to anyone else.

As part of my letter, I explain that the level of award is based upon performance and responsibility. You can be the best Gate Guard that God ever made, but I am not going to give you the same award as an "OK" First Sergeant. I think Soldiers often get confused by this and think that it is because of rank, when it is actually a reflection of the much greater difficulty in executing a job with that greater responsibility.

In my brigade, all ARCOM or higher awards are vetted by my CSM who makes a recommendation to me, yay, nay, or let's discuss. What both of us have found is that not enough leaders are having a frank conversation with the Soldiers they are putting in for an award that they will "only" receive an ARCOM or MSM. I have had several DA 638 come to me for LOMs for a SFC Section Leader or a LTC who never commanded. I have found that too many submitters want to be the hero to that Soldier and get them their first ARCOM/ MSM/ LOM, but that does a disservice to others that receive the same award for doing a better or more difficult job. Soldiers should be happy to be recognized for service or achievement and not think this is a game where he who has the highest award is the winner.
If your SSG gets an ARCOM with 3/OLC, tell them to be happy, that is certainly more than this COL has.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Aug 20 at 2014 11:32 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 23:32:33 -0400

Man, I feel yah.

Our TIF took IDF once, and the round was thankfully UXO. It bounced of a guard tower and scared the kid in there spitless. His PL (not me) put him in for a CAB, rightfully so.

But then the LTC decided to put the WHOLE camp in for a CAB. Obviously, the Brigade CO denied this ludicrous request, and the kid who had a narrow scrape got denied as part of the rest.

Still rankles me.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Oct 4 at 2014 11:09 AM

SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS — Sat, 04 Oct 2014 11:09:09 -0400

SSG Michael Hasbun,

I have experienced this too many times during my career. The last was an NCO whom I recommended three times for a Meritorious Service Medal. The last recommendation was "lost" by the BN S1, resubmitted, and denied due to insufficient rank. the other two recommendations were downgraded even though the Company Commander supported and endorsed the award and by all accounts the accomplishments justified the recommended MSM, as attested to by the BN S1 who also supported the awards. The recommendation for downgrade came from the BN CDR who did not like this Soldier and who took professional action based on personal feelings.

Was the Soldier bitter?, yes. He ETSd and eventually enlisted in the USAR where he became more bitter, finally retiring after 20+ years of service. While proud of his service, he always relates the many disappointments delivered by various Commands to which he was assigned.

I rationalized this by acknowledging our Command (at the Company level) doing everything we could to promulgate a deserving Soldier being recognized for noteworthy accomplishments. Honestly, it did not make it any easier to accept. I recommended this Soldier for many other smaller awards, such as Commander Coins, letter / certificates of appreciation, AAMs, and ARCOMs, all of which were approved.

The best outcome was from the Soldier who told me he knew he was appreciated and supported by the unit and he appreciated the attempts to gain him the recognition he earned and deserved.

The best case scenario for me, would involve an awards board who was not associated with any Command in the Soldiers chain. This board would review the recommendations and approve awards based on the merit presented in the justification narratives. This independent board would then submit the awards for approval by the action Commander. This would remove any bias or prejudice against a Soldier who otherwise deserves an award.

Thank you for this question.

SFC Joseph M. Finck USA (Ret)

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 28 at 2015 7:47 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 19:47:45 -0400

I am not bright enough to fix this situation but a SSG AGR said when his unit deployed, all the folks in the TOC received higher awards than those who went out the wire to conduct patrols. This reeks of selfishness and unfairness.

Response by SrA David Steyer made Nov 23 at 2015 4:25 PM

SrA David Steyer — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 16:25:04 -0500

I had this happen when I separated.

My supervisor put me in for an AFAM (Air Force Achievement Medal) and a lower level of leadership shot it down. By time it was shot down my supervisor had PCS'ed to a remote and someone else had to break the news to me. It was what it was. Never had issues with PT testing or evaluations and that supported the decoration. I and was lauded many times in my first section where I worked at this assignment for two years, coined three times, etc and then when I switched sections all of that hard work (2+ years) didn't matter. And as for why I didn't get it, well I know why and won't mention it here to air dirty laundry but I wouldn't change anything I did. It wouldn't have helped me now that I am out of the military. I take more pride in the people both good and bad who I met and was able to help along the way. That I remember..getting coined multiple times I barely remember.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2015 12:50 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 12:50:35 -0500

Sorta like saying I didn't count your push ups because you were moving too fast... rank structure and quotas are not valid reasons to deny or downgrade an award.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2015 1:16 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:16:22 -0500

What gets me is when you see two guys do basically the same thing and one gets an ARCOM and the other gets an AAM based solely on the rank of the Soldier. Last deployment, my daughter was our defacto BN S2 as a SPC after the S2 CPT got relieved and sent packing 2 months into the deployment. The S3 battle captains all got BSMs and she got an ARCOM, even though she did way more and had much more impact than they did.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Dec 31 at 2015 3:42 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Thu, 31 Dec 2015 15:42:56 -0500

Most of the ones that I have seen fall under the original write up combined with and overwhelming justification going up against a chain of command that was driving by ideological belief; soldier is too young or not enough rank. I took it as a joke when it happened to me, I got shafted by the COC.

Response by SGT Bobby F. made May 13 at 2016 10:43 AM

SGT Bobby F. — Fri, 13 May 2016 10:43:20 -0400

I've got to say, I'm tired of being denied awards. Not enough rank, wrong organization, whatever the reason. I'm never upset at the person or persons recommending me, it's not their fault I was denied. My primary examples are one CMB and MSM "because you're just a SPC" for events during my tour in Iraq, and most recently a Soldier's Medal downgrade for a multi-car accident "because that's your job". It's ridiculous that the promotion points from awards are such an integral part of promotion when we can just be denied the awards outright.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2017 1:58 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Sep 2017 13:58:39 -0400

In several instances others have mentioned the trend of COCs "recommending" or requiring the award recommender to resubmit the original recommendation as a lower award as opposed to following Army Regulations and either approval, disapproval, upgrade or downgrade of the award. It is utterly underhanded and disgusting that these so called "leaders' don't have the honor, integrity, or personal courage to own up to their actions and address the award in the proper fashion per Army Regulation. The only way to combat this unfortunate fact is to stand up and fight for your Soldiers as award recommenders, address these COCs in a professional and respectful manner with Army Regulation in hand and clearly point out that once submitted it is their duty to process the award per the regulation. As the approving authority it is fully within their authority to approve, disapprove, downgrade, or upgrade. However the disapprove, downgrade, and upgrade blocks were not just included for good looks; make these COCs use them. I personally will never change a recommended award that I submit through any COC (with the exception of clerical spelling and/or grammar edits); the award I feel the person deserves is what I feel they deserve, what I personally am recommending and will not change. If the COC disagrees with the recommendation it is quite simple per regulation; approve, disapprove, downgrade or upgrade the recommended award, point blank/period. Leaders hold these other "leaders" accountable for their actions. Will there be Soldiers recommended for awards they don't necessarily deserve? Yes, but that is where the approval authority downgrades to the appropriate level or if far in excess of what is deserved disapprove the award. On the other hand there may be some who deserve a higher ward and this is where COCs need to truly review the award, Soldier's performance and other factors in order to upgrade if the Soldier deserves more than recommended. The award form and accompanying regulation is meant to serve as checks and balances to ensure "fairness and impartiality" (sounds awfully familiar) in approving awards to Soldiers both up and down the chain of approval.

Response by PO3 Scot Fahey made Sep 13 at 2017 7:19 PM

PO3 Scot Fahey — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 19:19:57 -0400

In the world of we spot 'em, you swat 'em, we accept since we were never officially there no awards, (but we heard that ) . 1980 my Rear Admiral had 3 ribbons, Best a Sailor could do was good conduct, expert pistol, expert rifle , were not in it for awards, so getting home alive in one piece will have to do

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2017 3:24 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 03:24:10 -0400

I'd almost borderline send a reply back of "LOL" at the "insufficient rank" excuse.

Last time I checked, AR 600-8-22 doesn't say a word about what ranks are entitled to each award, just what ranks are required to approve different awards.

Resubmit and if it keeps coming back due to rank, escalate the situation as high as you need to in order to have this bias crap addressed. You don't just "get" higher awards because you have been alive long enough to wear senior NCO or officer rank.

I saw multiple situations in Iraq where Soldiers under the rank of SGT were denied things like Silver Stars or Bronze Stars for actions under fire... while a TOC full of Battle Captains who never left the FOB were all given blanket Bronze Star medals. Unacceptable.

As for explaining stuff to my Soldiers?

I don't make excuses for shitty leadership.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2017 5:53 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 17:53:32 -0400

As an E-4 about to leave Active Army service my supervisor submitted me for an MSM because I already had 3 ARCOMs and 4 AAMs through 9 years AD. It got downgraded to an ARCOM because that commander would not give an E-4 an MSM.

Response by PV2 Duane Schlender made Sep 16 at 2017 3:10 AM

PV2 Duane Schlender — Sat, 16 Sep 2017 03:10:32 -0400

No withstanding to my other reply on this thread... It is my view that no soldier should expect anything. An award is nice, but entitlement is not in the soldiers creed. Tact. Duty. Sleflessness. Leadership.
Remember those?
How would you feel as a soldier if you got hit with a landmine and the medic said i refuse to treat this soldier unless i get a medal?
The reason we join the military is to serve others and make life better. An award doesnt make a soldier, and if i was in a command situation, i would not spoil troops nor allow self entitlement. Its not a team element.
Accept awards when given. Dont demand them. Do your duty, and remember who you serve.

And im only a disabled E2. Come on soldiers. Man up.

Response by 1SG Michael Yager made Sep 19 at 2017 4:39 PM

1SG Michael Yager — Tue, 19 Sep 2017 16:39:27 -0400

Let's remember that awards are for actions above and beyond the normal scope of duties. As Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines we are awarded every month for the successful accomplishments of our duties, and that award is called a paycheck. We have become a society of entitlement and that is evident in the military services today. Some leader wants to give his Soldiers an ARCOM for returning to work from lunch in time and then he gets upset when it is denied or even worse, it was downgraded by the commander. And let us get this right, the commander CAN recommend to the approving authority to deny or downgrade any award request that passes over his desk. As a 1SG, I would see all award request prior to ensure that the "spirit of the regulation" was followed and if it was determined that it was not followed, the request would be sent back to the recommender for action. If the request is valid, then of course I would give my recommendation to the commander. So, as leaders, we should train, teach and mentor those under our charge and expect a certain level of performance without recognition by awarding those who made it to PT formation 4 out of 5 times this week. Being a leader is an awesome resposability that in itself is an award and should be revered as such. It is not a popularity contest.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 4:25 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:25:46 -0500

A common tactic of many commands, esp. award submitters, is to put the Soldier in for an award that is higher than what they want that Soldier to get, because they know the command will simply downgrade it every time. That's NOT the right way to do things. If you submit an award, the command should come to you if they have any questions, and ask you to make sure it is actually what you intended the Soldier to receive, and then they should approve. In rare circumstance though, I have seen awards actually upgraded due to the nature of the award. Commands should have to justify, in somewhat more detail than "Not qualified for award" or "Actions do not qualify for this award"... i.e.: Provide substance as to why the award is not deserved.

In Iraq, there was a policy that any award that was higher than an AAM, had to be submitted a minimum of six months in advance prior to redeployment back to the states. This was a ridiculous and assinine requirement since my org. did six month rotations there, and with two weeks for turn over on each end, you couldn't really put anyone in for anything other than an AAM, let alone determine if their performance deserved any particular award!!

That kind of BS needs to be eliminated completely from the awards system.

I like SSG Robert Burns's suggestion, of having a central review board, but that board should only be required to review awards above a certain level.

Response by SP6 Ken Cronenworth made Dec 29 at 2017 4:33 PM

SP6 Ken Cronenworth — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 16:33:04 -0500

Being a movie watching, cornhole playin, whiskey drinking, gym rat got my last PS a bronze star

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 8:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 20:40:16 -0500

Don’t expect anything, do your best and understand the reason your doing it isn’t for awards. Soldiers, marines, airmen, and coast guard should think that it is a privilege. But if you must give awards and your command denied it then make up your own awards! Let them off Monday or Friday or both! Think outside the box don’t let your first lines take the fire out of your service members!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2017 10:44 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 22:44:24 -0500

A few years ago i was put in for a MSM. It went all the way to the Brigade Commander who said hw would endorse it but told me the one star would most likely down grade it to a ARCOM and he wanted to know if i would be satisfied with a lessor award. I told him no, send it forward as is. The award was down graded as i expected. Staff Sergeants dont merit MSMs i guess in some leaders minds. I was presented an ARCOM, but in my record is the recommendation for the MSM with the approving comments from my battalion and brigade commanders. Side note, two years later the same GO approved me for a MSM.

Response by SP5 Joseph Isakson made Dec 29 at 2017 11:19 PM

SP5 Joseph Isakson — Fri, 29 Dec 2017 23:19:10 -0500

I think we can all agree that current award system is broken, we all know someone who received an award that left everyone scratching their head, in my case it was a SFC who was relieved for cause and received a BSM for his end of tour award. that being said I want to be clear that I never felt like I deserved anything more than my ARCOMS and I dont see how comparing awards does anyone any good. I have been retired for 9 years now and not once has any award ever affected anything in my professional life. my point being be proud of any award you have earned and try not compare.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2017 12:26 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 Dec 2017 00:26:46 -0500

That does kind of destroy morale for not receiving an award for not being the rank even though you've met the other 99% of the requirements. The best way is not to tell him he's been recommended until it gets approved.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Dec 30 at 2017 9:50 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Sat, 30 Dec 2017 09:50:33 -0500

Having been in that position and didn't, I have to ask did you try to get members of COC to intervene?
I my situation, there was a school award for performance that was supposed to based on points accumulated from a combination of PT, evals, range qualifications and academics. Not trying to ring my own bell, but I was at the top of that list in my platoon, but was passed over because I was Army National Guard and the Active guys "needed it on their record more". I should have taken that to the Commander in spite of how many it pissed off and I regret it to this day that I didn't.
I never let bullshit like that slide again for me or any of my soldiers.

Response by SGT Joe Mackey made Jan 1 at 2018 1:31 AM

SGT Joe Mackey — Mon, 01 Jan 2018 01:31:11 -0500

On a deployment I served as the battalion motor sergeant for about 10 months As a cpl due to my mentor and BMS being med evaced. A week before awards get send out while I’m training the incoming BMS the send a SSG from S-1 to “do my job” and he gets a bronze star with all my bullets. The problem lies in the buddy system and they will always find a way around the system.

Response by 1SG John Highfill made Sep 27 at 2018 3:46 PM

1SG John Highfill — Thu, 27 Sep 2018 15:46:09 -0400

As a 1SG I have written many awards some made through some did not Most of the ones that were approved were during deployment when all 31 awards submitted were approved the lowest were ARCOM’s most of the ones lost were stateside and were retirement awards many for over 25 years of service including my own for 34 years of service its really disappointing to writ awards for good NCO who have selflessly given so much to be disrespected when they retire

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2018 9:57 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Sep 2018 21:57:35 -0400

I had two different awards downgraded because I "didn't have enough rank" for the higher award, and once I was told I was being put in for a medal and months later found the paperwork was never even started, and all the bullets for things I had done showed up on someone else's award. By the end of my active duty days I was totally bitter over the whole thing. The whole procedure is jacked.

Response by LT Mark Schneider made Sep 28 at 2018 6:14 AM

LT Mark Schneider — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 06:14:14 -0400

When I was Chief (E-7) I did a deployment in support of OIF (I was doing S-1 style duties). When it came time to submit award inputs I was told to write up a Bronze Star for myself. As I wrote all I could think of was my grandfather who received a BSM in WW2 for having ropes toed around his ankles so he could be lowered down a cliff to toss grenades into a Japanese machine gun nest. I was so happy to be awarded an Army Commendation Medal. Sometimes the downgrading of an award is the right answer.

Response by SSG Michael Raysses made Sep 28 at 2018 9:01 AM

SSG Michael Raysses — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 09:01:53 -0400

Well guys??... hmmm... funny thing about awards... you either get them or you don't!... I didn't go in thinking I'm going to get this or that.... we went in for the HONOR... and a little glory... and a few bragging rights... (those came later, ha!)... but in my 24 yrs, 6 months and 18 days... (who's counting?)... I walked outta the gate, with four rows!.. and I'm proud of that... nothin crazy... a few AR-Coms/NAV COMS/Achievements.... and the rest?... mostly unit/command awards... in which everyone in the command got one... but it was the PERSONAL awards, that set the soldiers apart from the rest... cuz not everyone gets those... all in all?... I loved my career, its over, had a blast, and I miss it everyday!.... god damn it was a highlight of my life!... HOOAH!... SSG. Mike Raysses, 92-G30, USAR-Ret.

Response by CPL Chris Palmberg made Sep 28 at 2018 9:14 AM

CPL Chris Palmberg — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 09:14:21 -0400

So, I personally find it egregious when EVERY SINGLE SOLDIER of SSG or above is awarded a meritorious Bronze Star after a combat theater deployment. During my first deployment, the medic running between 113s and climbing over the top to treat casualties received a ARCOM with V, while the Ops NCO came out of it all with a BSM.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2018 10:07 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 10:07:17 -0400

Folks, we have all experiences something like that. Suffice it that once you are out or retired, those awards hang in your I love me room or in a box and don’t mean much out here in the civilian world. Except MOH or other award that comes with benefits.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2018 10:17 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 10:17:28 -0400

I was put in for an award by my squad leader for my actions during a Humvee roll over. I had never considered my actions to be award worthy however when he told me I was excited about how he thought it was. It made me proud. Then one of the S shops lost it... and that just made me very frustrated with the process so I've lived the other side and it sucks.

Response by SSG John Heresz made Sep 28 at 2018 10:50 AM

SSG John Heresz — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 10:50:38 -0400

When stationed my team came under fire from a sniper. A until helping to protect us shot and killed the sniper, I personally confirmed that with the other team lead. Upon return to our base I told my team to write sworn statements about what happened and that I was going to submit for CAB’s. I had six (6) sworn statements that pretty much laid out the facts. The BN Co disapproved the Combat Action Badges saying something like we may have thought we were in danger but there was no report of a sniper over the net. That was in 2007 and I just can’t get over the fact that my guys didn’t get what they deserved. Besides going to a Congressman or Senator, any helpful suggestions? Thank you.

Response by MSgt Carl Stokes made Sep 28 at 2018 7:21 PM

MSgt Carl Stokes — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 19:21:43 -0400

In my 26 years of service, I witnessed a transition in awards that took the merit out of them, who can deny that rank plays a role in which award you receive, this has historically been the fact - some get silver and some get bronze while others get ARCOM for the same operation. But what truly tainted me was seeing a politically correct movement towards issuing awards, IE soldier of the quarter/year or some type of unit recognition. Pick up an article and the pictures are always the same, a caucasian then there must be women and minorities in the picture. Every time???? I have been witness to lesser troops being selected for awards based on this, and the truly deserving troop passed over. The value of awards, in my opinion, have been deflated by these actions and most NCOS that I have worked with saw them as a waste of time and an epic hassle to try and get approved.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2018 8:27 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 20:27:33 -0400

The biggest thing is awards are supposed to and should be based on what a soldier does. Not based on rank. I've turned in awards such ARCOMS only to have them knocked down to AAM due to lack of rank. I call BS! If a soldier plain as day and God above deserves a higher medal give it to them. Rank should play no part in it. Rant over.

Response by MAJ John Collins made Sep 28 at 2018 8:28 PM

MAJ John Collins — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 20:28:57 -0400

Let it go. Don't get wound up by things you can't control. You can only worry about the things that you can control, but be smart enough to realize you control damn little. Things are going to happen in your life, good and bad that you can't control. I've had 2 BSM downgraded and an Air Medal denied. That is life. Move on. Whenever I have submitted awards for subordinates, I never told them until the day they would receive it.

Response by MSG Mark Stinson made Sep 28 at 2018 11:06 PM

MSG Mark Stinson — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 23:06:37 -0400

I was submitted by the B-40 Commander for a BS w/V after a prolonged firefight at night. The S-1 told me that it might not be approved because, (1) I wasn’t an officer (2) not wounded during the action. We received a new B-40 commander that was unaware of the operation and the A-401 detachment commander took my 638 and resubmitted the paperwork under his name. He was there that night but hid at the bottom of a foxhole during the two hour battle. Twenty seven years later during a phone conversation with the old B-40 commander he asked if I’d received the BS w/V, I informed him that the POS A-team commander took the award. After blowing his top he resubmitted the paperwork and I received a BS w/V when I graduated from the Battle Staff Course. MAJ Tom Bridgewater was the commander and he always took care of his soldiers. Even when we got into trouble he backed us up. I received a ticket after an accident that cracked the windshield of my jeep. As I was lowering the windshield, a jeep with two MP’s pulled behind me and started asking questions. What happened, while I was answering I was leaning on the hood of the jeep. The MP behind me asked what I had in my back pocket and I replied a 1911 .45. He told me to take it out. When I had recovered the .45 he asked me if it was loaded. I smiled yes, we are in a war, he told me to pop the mag which I proceeded to do and then said I guess you also want the one in the chamber. I was given two tickets one for the accident and the other for carrying a concealed loaded weapon SMH in a war zone. A month later MAJ Bridgewater called me into his office. As I stood before the man he read the report and told me that he had to reply and said OK 8 hours of drivers ed and 4 house concerning weapons in the Nam. I then asked when will the training start, with a straight face. He busted out laughing and through tears said, “I’m only pissed that you didn’t just drive away.” I responded that I couldn’t drive away because they both had weapons.” Still more laughter he said, “so did you, now get out of my office.
The photo was taken at the end of the first week of a 30 day combat operation commanding along with Greg Skougland a company (112 men) of Cambodians.

Response by SPC James Hitchens made Sep 29 at 2018 8:21 AM

SPC James Hitchens — Sat, 29 Sep 2018 08:21:24 -0400

A quota system?
For awards?
1st Armored Division did some similar crap when they gave out Bronze Stars to all Sergeants and above for (meritiorious) service while corprals and below only got Army commedation medals for their service in Dessert Storm.
The Army will never learn that cronieism is depleting their ranks of the best they have!

Response by SGT G Thorpe Henning made Sep 29 at 2018 3:44 PM

SGT G Thorpe Henning — Sat, 29 Sep 2018 15:44:56 -0400

Turned down for an ARCOM after writing, assembling, printing and publishing an entire series of SOP that were determined by IG to be "the best in all TRADOC." Despite doing nothing other than demand progress reports, the SFC, MSG and SGM were awarded MSM where the citations were verbatim what was listed on my award nomination.

Response by SFC Jr Heinrich made Sep 29 at 2018 5:02 PM

SFC Jr Heinrich — Sat, 29 Sep 2018 17:02:48 -0400

Like most, I was submitted for an MSM as a PCS award as an E-7. When it came back approved as an ARCOM, I looked at the back of the 638 to see where it fell short. The bullets/write up justified the award. The BN CDR (as a “recommend” approval/disaproval/upgrade/downgrade block) downgraded it, then was sent to the next recommending authority... what they did was not only against the regulation, but utterly lazy. They also recommended a downgrade. So instead of sending it up to the approving authority, they photocopied over the original with the O-6 signature block and sent it back as an arcom.
When I questioned the BN CDR as to what his reason was, he looked at me with a blank stare. He asked “why” I felt the need to question the award.. I pointed out the back of the 638 and asked “why didn’t it go to the person it was supposed to go to?” Again.. a blank stare. Then I pointed out that he had just awarded an MSM to a commander who had just lost thousands of dollars of military equipment off their property books..? Again.. a blank stare.
He then told me the reason my MSM was downgraded, was because I was recommended for a Soldiers Medal. I then had to explain to him the difference between the blocks on the front of the 638 “service & achievement” and how each of the blocks are categorized. I hate the fact it was downgraded, even more so that I had to educate a higher authority on what the AR 600-8-22 was and how to utilize it to the fullest of its potential. There was a little resentment towards that command because of their ignorance, but it was best to just push past and move on.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2018 10:37 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Sep 2018 22:37:01 -0400

I was put in for a legion of merit for my retirement the write up was good approved by BN and BDE commanders and over the course of 3 years of back and forth it was forced to be rewritten as a MSM but all that happened was a blank DA 638 with my LOM narrative attached my BN commanders comment saying it should be a LOM and the Generals signature and dropped in the mail.

Response by SGT Joshua Bressel made Sep 29 at 2018 11:01 PM

SGT Joshua Bressel — Sat, 29 Sep 2018 23:01:52 -0400

My first deployment, as a young "Joe", in the Army Infantry, my unit, after our year, in '03-'04 endured some of the heaviest fighting of the Iraq war, and my Bn had, if I remember the exact number correctly, 147 Purple Heart medals, and 6 KIA, with 53 PH, and 1 KIA, a dear friend, from my company. We were told that "uncommon valor, is a common virtue, in the Infantry", and, despite some of thebravest acts, i have ever witnessed, even 4 deployments later, the highest award, in my Bn, was a SINGLE, Bronze Star, for Valor!!!!! There were 46 ARCOMs, for Valor, including mine, and I had 2 of the PHs. A Civil Affairs team we worked with, had n E-4, who was an english major, and he wrote ALL of their awards. It was a specialty(government infrastructure) team, so they were mostly officers, ALL reservists, and NOT Special Ops! He was so good, they got 37 Bronze Star Medals, FOR MERIT, and 3 Purple Hearts, all, for tiny, bullshit injuries, 2 of which, many believe we're faked(people cutting their arms, shallowly, with knives, during mortar attacks, then going to the CASH, and saying they were hit....). He was SO GOOD, in fact, that they let him put HIMSELF IN, and got him APPROVED, as an E-4, for a Bronze Star.....FOR MERIT!!!! Yeah.... The saltiness was real!

Response by MSG Bob Metz made Sep 30 at 2018 1:47 AM

MSG Bob Metz — Sun, 30 Sep 2018 01:47:22 -0400

With all due respect...screw statistics...and screw rank...the award and receipt of an award should be based on two things the performance/action of the soldier (EM/O) and the award of itself...a soldier should never have to write their own award...a requirement for leadership training should be awards...and how to write recommendations for awards...and for all those gimme awards...Good Conduct, Leadership TRNG, Overseas Deployment...etc...every Leader should know know who in their squad, platoon and company is eligible and deserving...and ensure the award is processed at thei level...too the S-1...and it should be a part of the NCO/OER system...but the most hypocritical criterion for any award...are 1. Statistics and 2. Rank...

Alas...I do not foresee...my opinion having any impact on awards...

Response by CW2 Terrence Clancy made Sep 30 at 2018 10:39 AM

CW2 Terrence Clancy — Sun, 30 Sep 2018 10:39:35 -0400

As a former S-1 for an MP & a Support Bn. I would encourage leaders to submit their soldiers for awards and would give them guidance and instructions pertaining to the Regs. I would also give them examples of well written and successful awards so they could see the successful verbiage. Yes a well written award statement describing the rationale for the award is an excellent starting point. Key words and phrases are in my opinion necessary to highlight the rationale for the award.

Response by SFC Shannon Ford made Sep 30 at 2018 6:52 PM

SFC Shannon Ford — Sun, 30 Sep 2018 18:52:06 -0400

I was recommended for the BS back in the day. Led over 400 patrols in Baghdad during the surge. I was told I just didn't have enough rank, only to see a guy a rank lower, on the maintenance team get one. He got out the wire twice. I was tired enough to let it go for the most part, but when I asked, it was because they needed to show they weren't biased. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. I'm pretty well retired now. But it would have been nice to look back on. Now, had the same unit been able to process my retirement award in time to get it on my 214, that would have awesome. Still tossing hoops to get a 215.