Would an E9 comply if ordered to attention by an O1?

2016-09-13T00:09:38-04:00

If a fresh 2LT/ENS ordered an E9 to attention because of a disagreement, would the E9 have to comply? What would possibly happen?

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 12:55 AM

2016-09-13T00:55:07-04:00

I take it you missed the class in Boot Camp on rank and Officer v. Enlisted??? Why even ask such a question?

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 1:05 AM

2016-09-13T01:05:32-04:00

By the books and regulation, yes. Same with Warrant Officers... Now would I recommend an O-1 do that? Hah, well, I would let them figure that out on their own.

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 13 at 2016 2:10 AM

2016-09-13T02:10:43-04:00

I only ordered "lock it up Marine" to someone who was getting emotional and needed to take a breath. As soon as they regained their composure, I would tell them "stand easy". I also did not conduct discipline counseling when I was agitated. Sometimes telling someone "we will discuss this later." had the needed calming effect on both of us.

In my day, all of the commissioning sources did a pretty good job of explaining the weight of legal authority held by junior officers vs. wisdom/experience authority held by SNCO's. So I find it really difficult to imagine any Company Grade Officer thinking that locking up a SNCO was a viable course of action.

Other than being intoxicated, I can't imagine a situation where a seasoned Cpl., or a competent Sgt., would get to that point, let alone a Senior SNCO. I guess I might do it with an intoxicated SNCO who was abandoning his rank. But only if his actions had eliminated more discreet courses of action.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 3:04 AM

2016-09-13T03:04:07-04:00

Oh sarge... Don't get me startd

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 5:37 AM

2016-09-13T05:37:05-04:00

Well,I can tell you on the army an E-9 would definitely put a boot in that O-1's fourth point of contact. But on paper yeah, they are supposed to.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Sep 13 at 2016 6:16 AM

2016-09-13T06:16:41-04:00

If I were the E-9, yes, but I believe me and a certain young butter bar would be having a little discussion later in private.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Sep 13 at 2016 7:38 AM

2016-09-13T07:38:33-04:00

No matter how high rank the NCO, he/she still, by all rights is required to. I as a SGM was about to receive a counseling statement from a CPT. I let him have his say first then it was my turn. I spent the next 20 minutes setting this young CPT straight. It was behind closed doors and not in front of the troops - which should never happen.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Sep 13 at 2016 8:21 AM

2016-09-13T08:21:36-04:00

If I saw a LT call an E-9 to attention, I would grab my popcorn and get ready for a show, haha

Response by MSG Wade Huffman made Sep 13 at 2016 8:58 AM

2016-09-13T08:58:42-04:00

This reminds me of a true story from the mid 80s.
Not exactly the same scenario you proposed, but similar.

CSM is in the S3 shop, when a new 2LT walked in.
CSM says "Good Morning".
2LT "You mean to say, Good morning SIR"
CSM crushes out cigarette, takes a drink of coffee, stands face to face with the young lieutenant and says:
You know what, SIR? I'm retiring in a few short months and once I do there are three things I'll never do again.
1. I'll never get out of bed before 0600 unless I'm going hunting or fishing.
2. I'll never run again unless I'm being chased by someone or something much bigger than I am.
and 3. I will NEVER, EVER, CALL ANOTHER BOY SIR!
and left the room. Shortly afterward, the young man had a 'come to Jesus' meeting with the CSM, XO and Bde Cdr. He was a new man after that!

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Sep 13 at 2016 9:04 AM

2016-09-13T09:04:40-04:00

Well I have a story on what a CSM told an O-3! So I say that it would defiantly go for an O-1! LMAO
After reading some post decided to share my story.

We had just completed a BN run. We where all standing in formation listening to the BC speak. When he finished and told us we were being released for the day early, as he turned it over to the CSM. His name was CSM Hatcher. 6'7 320 lb Black gentleman. 3 tours in Vietnam. Always called us babies and always warned us to stay away from the "panther piss"! lol told us stories of black plam and being chased by bushmaster snakes. Well, he gave his speech on how well we had done in the field the week prior and started his 5 point safety briefing.

"alright babies, here is your safety brief. 1 If you drink, don't drive. 2 if you drive, don't drink. 3 if you swim, don't drown. 4 if you (have sexual encounter), wear a rain coat. 5 stay the F*&K off my blotter report. You are dismissed!"

Well the BN split. We were told by the CO to stay for HIS safety briefing. He then went inside. Now the CSM is talking over in a corner across the way. He strolls over and ask my Plt Sergeant, why we were still in formation. My Plt Sergeant answered him saying that, we were waiting on the CO's safety brief. Well he blew his lid. " I have given the safety brief already"! I understand, was his reply but it's the CO. He took 3 steps in front of the formation and said and I quote, "If I see 1 swinging d*&k standing here in the next 30 seconds, everyone will be on my detail all weekend"! Just as the CO steps out, we split! rather be chewed out by the commander than being with a pissed off CSM all weekend! Everyone hit the windows that faced the court yard.

To make a long story shorter, the CSM told the CPT, after blowing his top, that he could go to hell. That he signed for us, from him and that we were his men. That he would retire as an E-9 even as he left as an E-1! Well, the BC came over, seeing that we all we watching, politely told them to go to his office and wait for him that the whole BN was watching their escapade!

The CO and the CSM were all buddy, buddy after that. When the CSM released us from that point on the CO let it be. CSM Hatcher retired a few months later and we had a change of command soon after that.

Not saying that was a good way to handle the situation, just sharing the experience.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 9:27 AM

2016-09-13T09:27:10-04:00

That 2LT can try it, I'm sure it wont end well for him/her and most likely will never do it again.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 10:09 AM

2016-09-13T10:09:01-04:00

So years ago I got a chance to witness an… event lol. This happened back at a Squadron a LTJG walked into maintenance control and told the AZ1 that he was entering the gripes wrong in the system (I don’t remember the programs name) The AZ1 tries to explain to the LTJG that how he is doing it is how the system requires it and it is the only way for that program. The LTJG keeps interrupting the AZ1 and all around showing zero respect for someone that has been working on that system for at least 12 years. The LTJG had been in for all of I think 3 years. At one point the LTJG let lose these pearls of wisdom. “Well AZ1 I’m an Officer with a College Degree, if you had gone to school and gotten a Degree you would know what you were doing and not be a worthless enlisted that doesn’t know jack” At that point the Maintenance Master Chief stepped out of his office to have a word.

MMC: LTJG so you have a Degree? What’s it in?
LTJG: That’s not importin Master Chief.
MMC: No really what’s it in?
LTJG: Mumbles Bachelors in Art history.
MMC: hum, AZ1 what’s your Degree in,
AZ1: Working on my Masters in Electrical Engineering.

The master Chief looks being the LTJG to the two LT’s that have quietly walked up behind him and say

“You may want to correct this” and then walks back into his office.

I learned a few things from that. 1. Know your people and what they are doing with / in their lives. 2. Make your point and then walk away. 3. Don’t get in a pissing match you just get peed on. 4. Be humble when dealing with Junior people. 5. Learn from your people and remember your actions will teach them how to be.

Response by CPO Bill Penrod made Sep 13 at 2016 11:50 AM

2016-09-13T11:50:51-04:00

Never in counter that situation. My officers were trained properly. Most would say " As you were......."

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Sep 13 at 2016 1:40 PM

2016-09-13T13:40:40-04:00

Hell yes you have to comply. The fall out is priceless though.
I once had a new 2LT throw me off his job site for talking to Soldiers without having asked his permission. News flash.... CSMs don't need permission to talk to Soldiers and I had already let the PSG know I was on site out of courtesy.
I simply popped to attention saluted about faced and left laughing my ass off once I got in the truck. My Driver and gunner were in shock, I told them to shut up and just watch and learn. Without ever tattling on the LT, word got to the BC what had happened and you can bet your backside that was the last time anyone tried that crap.
In 30 years of service that and three epic land nav incidents were the only bad run ins I had with officers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 1:47 PM

2016-09-13T13:47:21-04:00

I had a young LT in Afghanistan get stopped by a CSM asking him where is protective eye wear was, LT informed the CSM he did not wear them, and started on his way, unfortunately for LT the CSM was traveling with a LTC who came around the corner and told LT that he needed to unf**k himself right away and get some eye protection. When the LT came into my office and told me to make sure he was unf**k in the morning because he did not want another run it with the CSM.

Response by PO2 Marty Sharpe made Sep 13 at 2016 3:41 PM

2016-09-13T15:41:12-04:00

I would think the E9 would come to attention as he should. But the Ensign or 2ndLt is going to be miserable for a long time to come.

Response by 1SG Patrick Burke made Sep 13 at 2016 4:03 PM

2016-09-13T16:03:50-04:00

In about 95% of the incidents, that LT would be in for a long day. If the LTC employs his XO, S3, and CSM properly, than that LT is stepping into a match he will only loose. As a 1SG, I had many a disagreement with the LTs. I was always professional about it in public, as were they. They knew and understood were I stood in the eyes of each of my Troop Commanders.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 4:30 PM

2016-09-13T16:30:00-04:00

In my humble opinion people, in order to adhere to basic military core values you should treat all members with the same amount of respect. Whether they are an E-1 or one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. They both raised thier right hand and swore to give their lives for this country. Furthermore they are both human beings and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. If a junior officer is disrespectful to a senior enlisted leader then it is the senior enlisted leaders responsibility to mentor the JO offline in a dignified manner. Regardless of rank, the true leader, the person the people will follow, is recognized by their strength of character and virtue.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 4:39 PM

2016-09-13T16:39:06-04:00

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Sep 13 at 2016 4:43 PM

2016-09-13T16:43:16-04:00

Yep, and a LTC, MAJ and CPT would make that 2LT's life a living hell. Not to mention the "extreme details" his Company's NCOs would insist on following his future orders (provide they were safe).

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 5:51 PM

2016-09-13T17:51:04-04:00

leagally yes but after i wouldnt want to be the 01 standing in front of the co's office

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 6:54 PM

2016-09-13T18:54:22-04:00

Technically.............

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2016 7:22 PM

2016-09-13T19:22:35-04:00

Story time, not witnessed, told often to make a point. Not an E9 but an E5 if I remember correctly.

A young 2nd Lt was walking across the parade deck when a Sgt passed by without saluting. The 2nd Lt comes to a halt and orders the Sgt to halt, about face and come here. The Sgt locks it up in front of the Lt. The Lt goes on to berate the Sgt for not saluting an officer. Finally, the Lt orders the Sgt to render 100 salutes to the Lt.

While this is happening, Col Chesty Puller walks by, slows down and comes on over as he sees the Sgt saluting over and over again. He asks the Lt what is going on. The Lt explains the situation. Col Puller nods and says "Very well. Carry on.", turns to leave, then turns back. He then says "Lt, it is every officer's duty to return every salute rendered to him.", then turns and leaves.

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Sep 13 at 2016 8:59 PM

2016-09-13T20:59:12-04:00

PO2. Yes, but in most cases the 2LT will get some attention afterwards. I had a couple of situations as
a 1stSgt with a 2LT and with a Capt. I did not back down but made a extra effort to remember I was dealing with officers. The Capt was the Sqd Maintenance officer and also the EOT officer. He was just one of those persons I could not get along with. I had the trouble in both with the Capt. As a MO and EOT officer. I did come out ahead.

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Sep 13 at 2016 9:08 PM

2016-09-13T21:08:04-04:00

As an E-8 I would not get to attention for an 0-1.

Response by SMSgt Matthew Hoyer made Sep 13 at 2016 9:13 PM

2016-09-13T21:13:01-04:00

I've seen that try to happen. The E-9 smiled and put his arm around the O-1s shoulders and they walked off to his office. A very sheepish looking O-1 came out after about 30 minutes. No yelling happened, but none really needed to. Not saying it's right or wrong, good or bad, just what I saw.
That aside, the O-1 would lose the ability to lead pretty much everyone who saw that take place, whether the E-9 went to attention or not; that's a total dick move.

Response by Cpl Tou Lee Yang made Sep 13 at 2016 9:22 PM

2016-09-13T21:22:14-04:00

I once witness an O3 (Marine Captain) talking rudely to a Master Chief (E9) without disregards for who was present or not. The Master Chief listened and answered professionally while standing at attention. Sure enough, once the Master Chief boss came back to the office, the Captain was standing at attention in front of a CAPTAIN answering for his unbecoming an officer. I hated that environment and culture. Good thing I got out when I could, otherwise I would've punch the hell out of that officer that spoke to me like I'm some sort of idiot.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Sep 13 at 2016 9:31 PM

2016-09-13T21:31:46-04:00

Of course. Lawful order. You can be sure though that there will be future conversations from both that e-9 and the o-1's superiors.

Response by CPT(P) David Thorp made Sep 13 at 2016 10:43 PM

2016-09-13T22:43:42-04:00

I could never do that. There are other ways.

Response by CPT Douglas Griffith made Sep 14 at 2016 1:05 AM

2016-09-14T01:05:26-04:00

Not on this planet. You just do not disrespect that rank.
That reminds me of a story when I was in Germany and there was a bunch of E8s on my E5 five board selling gas coupons.
However, once, in a combat scenario, (me being a 1LT w/ 19 years, let my 1SG and Company CMDr know, in no uncertain terms, that the medical operations would run exactly as I wanted them to, that I did not work for them, and that although attached I am a battalion asset. Of course that was behind closed doors. We got along just fine.

Response by SFC George Smith made Sep 14 at 2016 1:22 AM

2016-09-14T01:22:06-04:00

unfortunately yes... but i would not want to that shaved tail " Lt." when The Bn Commander gets through with him...

Response by SPC Daniel Joslin made Sep 14 at 2016 8:10 AM

2016-09-14T08:10:46-04:00

One should respect the rank, always, and not necessarily the person. That respect goes both ways. The E9 should show respect to the O1 so as to never have to be locked up by said O1. Just as the O1 should respect the E9 and realize that the E9 has more knowledge and experience in his little finger than does the O1 and that it would be a huge mistake and detrimental to his career to lock up a senior enlisted officer.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Sep 14 at 2016 8:46 AM

2016-09-14T08:46:12-04:00

Technically, yes. As to what could happen, many things -- the best possible outcome would be a freshly educated junior officer with an abundant supply of humility for use in dealings with senior NCOs. I'm not sure what the worst possible outcome could be, because there is always the potential death-spiral of both soldiers deciding that they would not back down. I am fairly sure that the final outcome would be rougher on the LT's ego than the Sergeant Major's..

Response by SFC Terry Murphy made Sep 14 at 2016 9:02 AM

2016-09-14T09:02:31-04:00

Had to save a West Point Cadet that was assigned to my company during his summer drill stuff. This was in the 80s and he tried to lock up my Platoon Sergeant who was a former hand to hand instructor for Ranger school. his feet were about six inches off the ground when we pulled the PSG of him.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2016 9:23 AM

2016-09-14T09:23:50-04:00

Yes... he would. An O1 is still an officer and an E9 is still enlisted.

The correct rephrasing of this question should be "Would it be wise for an O1 to call an E9 to attention". We all know the answer to that. How this question is actually trending vexes me.

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Sep 14 at 2016 12:54 PM

2016-09-14T12:54:23-04:00

There are Leaders and then there are managers. CSGMs and Command CMSGTs have been successful or they wouldn't hold the rank. True Leadership is a rare talent. Most folks just entering the service do not possess that talent(yet). Respect is a two way street. I was lucky enough to follow my Cmsgt on two different assignments. He was crusty as they come but he had the respect of just about everyone above and below him. He respected hard work and courtesy. He did have an exchange with a junior officer who was being disrespectful. He handled it with dignity and respect. Unfortunately, our squadron commander got wind of what took place, and the officer was reassigned. I asked the Chief about it and he said that it was a shame because he thought the officer had potential that he could help develop. My respect for the man grew even more.

Response by CPO Jeromy King made Sep 14 at 2016 2:32 PM

2016-09-14T14:32:05-04:00

Silly Question, no O1 would ever try that... if they did the nearest Officer would immediately take them by the arm and escort them to a quiet location to explain the Career Suicide they were committing. This would not happen, the only way it would possibly happen is in private between a E9 and a Mustang who was a Master Chief prior and then it would be a one in a million thing..... Not gonna happen period.

Response by CPO Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols made Sep 14 at 2016 3:33 PM

2016-09-14T15:33:32-04:00

It is a lawful order. A very IL-ADVISED lawful order. An up close and personal meeting will follow the situation I'm sure.

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Sep 14 at 2016 4:00 PM

2016-09-14T16:00:24-04:00

Yes, though not more than once by the same LT. lol
As an E-7 , I went thru similar situations, The 2lt always lost afterwards. Upper classman at where ever just does not work in real life.

Response by 1SG Al Brown made Sep 14 at 2016 4:15 PM

2016-09-14T16:15:45-04:00

I've never met an E9 that would allow that situation to occur. I have seen a lot of Officer / NCO dust-ups, but not that far apart in experience. Most were just typical disagreements where the frag was displayed, but the pin wasn't pulled.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Sep 14 at 2016 5:11 PM

2016-09-14T17:11:09-04:00

Context needed but you don't get to E9 being a shit bag so I'm sure said E9 will comply but I bet a month's pay the E9 knows an O5 or O6. Checkmate.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2016 5:29 PM

2016-09-14T17:29:00-04:00

As an E9, I would ask this young officer if he or she were very certain they wanted me to comply with this order. If they were certain, I would comply but there would be some follow-on conversations about respect with the Battalion Commander that would probably not be as civil as my current comments to the Lieutenant. On the other hand, if they decided it might be more prudent to rescind the order, we could retreat to my office to have a conversation about respect that would be part of an ongoing mentoring relationship between us to help him or her grow in their career, related to working with NCOs. Then we would proceed based on the Lieutenant's decision at that point. I would go to attention, if that's the choice he or she made. I swore an oath to follow the orders of the officers appointed over me.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2016 5:52 PM

2016-09-14T17:52:51-04:00

I actually had this exact conversation with some of my classmates today. I'm the lone prior enlisted butterbur in my course and I'm doing my best to impart some of my limited wisdom on them that I've acquired over the past decade or so of service. I told them that you have to have tact in these situations. Not only does that CSM probably have an office next door to a flag officer, but they probably also play golf and drink beers together on the weekend. Getting on a CSM's bad side (and consequently your BN or BDE commander's bad side) from the get go is a not a good way to start a career.

Response by LCpl Nicholas Hines made Sep 14 at 2016 6:10 PM

2016-09-14T18:10:43-04:00

I'm just here to read stories about butter bars getting destroyed by Sergeant Majors

Response by PO3 Ryan MartinFurlong made Sep 14 at 2016 6:24 PM

2016-09-14T18:24:03-04:00

Oh to be a fly on the wall to watch that go down.

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Sep 14 at 2016 6:38 PM

2016-09-14T18:38:53-04:00

I once had a LT who said he was going to lock the heals of the brigade CSM. I quickly advised him that would be the biggest mistake of his career. Reminded him that BDE commanders choose their CSM and would fully back them

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2016 6:40 PM

2016-09-14T18:40:55-04:00

I honestly could never imagine seeing an E7 or above, especially an E9, ordered to attention by an O1.. I'd imagine that kind of stupid wouldn't last too long in the military. If that O1 doesn't believe in God, he might want to start, because you know pretty soon he will be praying everyone forgets about it. The CO and everyone up to the CO will put the fear of God in him.. All I know is, were such an O1 to make it out alive from his "mentorship" training with his Senior Officers, that E9 would probably receive the best service and utmost respect from the O1.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Sep 14 at 2016 6:52 PM

2016-09-14T18:52:21-04:00

I heard a story once....maybe some of you have heard it....maybe its factual, or maybe its one of those Old Wives' Tales, but I'll share it anyway:

At Quantico, VA, where among other things lies both the USMC Officers' Candidate School, AND the Marine Security Guard Battalion/School (read Embassy School) ... A freshly graduated 2LT was walking in opposite direction of the MSG SgtMaj during a lunch break (back to their work areas towards the end of their lunch times). The 2LT called out the SgtMaj for not rendering a salute.

(You can already see where this is going)

The E9 had another younger Marine walking behind him a bit...asked him to come with him as he needed a witness...and walked this young 2LT and the (E5 i think) to the HQ of the OCS, and demanded to see the BnCO, BnXO, and BnSgtmaj in the lobby. They all came down within about 5-10 minutes. The MSG-E9 tore into all of them, very sternly yet borderline respectfully...and said "I don't know what on God's Green Earth you are teaching these young Officers around here...but you don't get to be the SgtMaj of anything to do with Embassy units without being a bit heavy on the decorations, and as the rest of you can see, I happen to be wearing the MoH amongst my awards...and its been years that I've "had" to salute anybody, although I generally will return one out of respect...and now you people got me wondering just what in the hell else I have to do to earn some of my own damn respect around here...and I'm quite certain that both Enlisted and Officer training programs discuss what the MoH looks like and that it is supposed to be saluted even if its worn by a PFC..." Supposedly the young 2LT got recycled on the spot and had to redo his entire OCS, and some of their instructors were chewed out by the BnCO there.

I personally heard this from the specific E4-E5 "witness" himself (I know he made E5 at some point, I'm just not sure if he was a Corporal at the time). My guy tells me he wasn't exaggerating one bit. And I've been through the same MSG school myself...and I will tell you that nearly all of their instructors are highly decorated E7s, who have all done stints as DIs, Recruiters, AND (not and/or, but all of these) members of Embassy units as Detachment Commanders (usually an E6 billet at minimum, some higher depending on size/location of Embassy)...as those are the minimums to become an MSG Instructor. So it makes sense to me that their unit E9 would be even more "stacked".

Just saying. =)
Semper Fi.

Im sure some of you might think this is a BS kind of story...but we ARE talking about the Corps here...and it does pass the initial sniff test. Especially on a SgtMaj who may have been one of those guys in for 30+ years and been around since 'Nam (this was around 1995 or so). I do disclose that i cannot confirm this however.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2016 6:56 PM

2016-09-14T18:56:59-04:00

Most E9s I've known would respect the rank of the O1, per their oath of enlistment and their experience. That said, I witnessed this once. The CMSgt told the 2Lt, "All I owe you is a 'Sir' and a salute. Anything else that I give you is a bonus." SNCOs can make or break a young officer's career in ways that the young officer cannot even imagine. And SNCOs (E9s in particular) can damage an officer's career in way that he/she cannot prove or even imagine. Young officers would be wise to show deference to age and experience. Even now, as a not-so-young O4, I approach SNCOs with respect.

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made Sep 14 at 2016 7:01 PM

2016-09-14T19:01:01-04:00

I guess the oath of enlistment stuff gets tossed at a certain pay grade. And if a CO is facilitating it, it's even worse. Whatever circumstances that would even create such a situation should have been avoided, but regardless of your crust level a zero is a zero and unless he or she is giving you an unlawful or downright death to everyone order just to save their cat...why wouldn't they. Even at year 20 when a butterbar showed up, I stood up, still sprinkled in a sir or ma'am and carried out the plan of the day even if they needed some advice to smooth out that plan. I did witness the Bn SgtMaj flick his cigar at a LT when he asked if he was going to salute him. The CO backed SgtMaj up and literally crushed him in front of a bunch of LCpls. He spent the next year just lurking in the shadows until he PCS'd. Stuff like that does have a negative affect. Suck it up or try your best to avoid it.

Response by CPO Randy Francis made Sep 14 at 2016 7:04 PM

2016-09-14T19:04:27-04:00

I once had a newly promoted CPO arrive at my command where I was the Senior CPO. Upon his arrival he informed the OIC (an O-5) and me that he has just received orders that he is going to be commissioned as an LDO. The day after his commissioning ceremony he arrives in the office and says to me, "Chief, you're in my desk." Out of the corner of my eye I see the Cdr look down at his computer, refusing to acknowledge what he knew was about to happen. My GMC immediately told my enlisted sailors to go find something to do. I then informed the new Ensign that I, not him, ran the office and I decided work stations, not him. I informed him that his work station was the table in front of my desk and that I would let him know when Liberty began. I saw him look at the CDR who refused to even look up at him at which point he sat at the table in front of me. I thought my GMC was going to explode with laughter. At the end of the day I told the Ensign that Liberty had begun and he could leave. Never had any more problems with that Ensign.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Sep 14 at 2016 7:04 PM

2016-09-14T19:04:50-04:00

Nat'l Guard Readiness NCO (SFC) who had previously been Bn Ops NCO (MSG), Brand new SFC (acting 1SG for the weekend) tells him to stop what he is doing to follow HIS orders, (oh, and former MSG has more years in service than new E-7 has alive), the shouting started and all of the rest of us left the room and closed the door behind us. Shouting went on for a while.

Response by SSG Mike Simpson made Sep 14 at 2016 7:07 PM

2016-09-14T19:07:50-04:00

Everything depends on the situation, BUT that being said, if the 2nd Lt./Ensign was issuing a legal order. yes, the E-9 would have to comply, otherwise good military order and discipline goes right out the window. Now what would happen to that young officer is probably this: he would be counseled by a higher ranking office within his chain of command or department. Back in the old days, the E-9 would have a "chat" with some of the NCO's within that officer's unit who would "mysteriously" stop being so helpful to that young officer. Once he falls on his face a time or two, he might learn that you don't spit into the wind; you don't tug on Superman's cape; and you don't mess around with E-9's.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Sep 14 at 2016 7:12 PM

2016-09-14T19:12:46-04:00

medical spt for ROTC summer camp - mid 80s at FT Bragg, the hosting company D 82d Avn put a new kid fresh out of Jump School on arms room guard, and the following morning on his way to sleep made the mistake of saluting a Cadet, TAC Sgt saw this, called the entire Co to formation and chewed out the Pvt, telling him all the reasons that he will never salute a Cadet, #1 he outranks them all.....it was a glorious site to see.

Response by MSgt Rob Weston made Sep 14 at 2016 7:34 PM

2016-09-14T19:34:39-04:00

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2016 7:43 PM

2016-09-14T19:43:51-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member this question was heavily inspired by the most notorious question ever to be posted on RallyPoint. That and the many popular knock off questions below that.

Response by CPT Chris Newport made Sep 14 at 2016 7:51 PM

2016-09-14T19:51:49-04:00

Respect the rank if not the Man behind it - or get an Article 15. Remember, he is there to learn and improve and, if he is smart, will listen to his senior NCO, if he is lucky enough to have good one. Ultimately he is responsible for everything whether he is or not and for what his crew does or fails to do. Keep in mind, he is injured by a mistake far more than any EM. Its a tremendous burden. Go along to get along.

Response by SPC Herold Bush made Sep 14 at 2016 7:56 PM

2016-09-14T19:56:06-04:00

When I was at Ft. Lewis, we were out back of the CP cleaning weapons and a 2nd Lt was walking towards us form the Battalion area, our SGM was distracted and walking towards him and offended the Lt. He locked up the SGM had him at parade rest , was chewing him out, SGM never lost his composure , 'Yes , Sir' , ' No, Sir' , as soon as the Lt was done speaking the SGM saluted and immediately went to Battalion , literally 3 mins after he went in, the Battalion Commander came flying out, chased the LT down , I have never seen someone so scared , he was white as a ghost, I think he actually soiled himself by some of the comments the BC was making to him, until I PCS'ed every time that LT saw that SGM coming he would run away.

Response by SPC James Anderson made Sep 14 at 2016 7:57 PM

2016-09-14T19:57:52-04:00

Ive seen it once. Imagine an old west movie, when the stranger walks through the door and you hear all the conversation stop, the piano player turns to look and you just know some shit is about to go down.

First NTC rotation I was helping my Lt with some map overlays at the Bat TOC, our Battalion SMG was addressing some of the troops and a butter bar decided to interrupt and verbally correct him in front of said enlisted. SGM appeared to momentarily suppress his feral instinct to gouge out the butter bars eyes, then politely invited said butter bar into the battalion TOC for happy hour with the Bat CO. I believe the butter bar had a "come to jesus" meeting and exited the TOC 20 minutes later having seen the error of his ways.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2016 8:23 PM

2016-09-14T20:23:12-04:00

By regulation yes. I once had the opportunity to see an O-3 attempt to "lock up" an E-9. I was in the SPT Plt in 1/33 AR back in 2000. We had just returned from a two week FTX and the BN CSM had held Bn formation and and put out that every swinging jack was to be out of Bn Ao in thirty minutes. The HHC Co had decided that because a work order for a pair of NVG's was not in the Arms room and until it was found. Well about twenty minutes goes by with the entire company standing in formation and the CSM pops his head out of the BN office and with some very colorful language asks what we were doing. The senior PSG proceeds to tell him and the CSM states that he will be leaving his office in three minutes and anyone still in the Ao will be trimming his grass because they can't follow orders. No sooner than CSM goes into the building then the Co CDR comes out and calls the company to attention. Halfway thru the commanders briefing then the CSM and LTC come walking out. The CSM is livid and Yells out "I thought I said for you F0*ks to beat feet. The Co turns and then proceeds to lock up CSM and tell him that it is his company and he will dismiss it when he is ready. CSM doesn't say a word just stands there at attention smiling. At this point we hear "Captain, A word please. CSM dismiss this company". You guessed it. The Bn Co standing off to the side wondering why a O-3 is dressing down "His" CSM and in front of the troops to boot. For the rest of that captains tour as commander he didn't go against anything that the CSM put out in a formation again

Response by SGT Chris Hill made Sep 14 at 2016 8:36 PM

2016-09-14T20:36:24-04:00

So there I was, in 2005, Ft Bliss, I was on gate guard at the motor pool. The BN CSM comes walking up and I jump up quickly, grab my weapon, I open the guard shack door and greet the CSM. He asks how we are doing and if we need anything from him (wouldn't say yes if my life depended on it) I told him negative CSM, all is great here. He told me to follow him as he strolled through the motor pool to look at everything in it's place. So I'm trucking along behind him, trying to stay close enough to hear him if he spoke to me, but far enough not to be too close.

I saw someone approaching us from about 25 meters ahead, thinking it's just some random private. I looked at his rank and realized he was a 1LT, and passed by us and the CSM said nothing to him as he was distracting looking all around. I saluted with my weapon and said the usual yada yada crap, right as I dropped my salute, I hear the 1LT say "Hey CSM, at least acknowledge me when passing by, or salute, you should know the standard." At that moment in my life, my eyes got wide and my heart started beating fast, wondering if I am seriously hearing those words.

The CSM turned around and said "Hey LT, if you didn't realize by now that if a CSM walks past you without saluting or acknowledging you, keep f*cking moving!" At this point, I felt like I was watching the apocalypse happening right in front of my face, the LT said "CSM, can we talk to the side please?" The CSM said, and I'll never forget this, "LT how long have you been in?", the LT says "about 3 years", the CSM laughed and said "My shinny boots, my badges, and even my soft cap have more TIS than you have" The CSM saluted him very sarcastically and said "You got your salute, but I'll get the last laugh kid". I wanted to slow clap so badly but I wasn't as stupid as that LT. Never heard what happened to the LT but I wish I could have.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2016 8:40 PM

2016-09-14T20:40:00-04:00

An O1 outranks an E9, simple as that. But as others have said, what are you trying to prove by just flexing your "authority/rank" just you because you can? 9/10 times, your senior NCOs are there to help you and mould you (as well as their subordinate NCOs) into the best leaders they can be so they can retire with the knowledge that (hopefully) the unit won't burn down the minute they hang up the uniform. You'd be foolish to break the wing they're trying to take you under instead of getting under it.

Response by SPC John Decker made Sep 14 at 2016 8:41 PM

2016-09-14T20:41:43-04:00

As an enlisted service member, he/she should. That being said, any o-1 who gave that order would have to have the largest pair GOD ever put on somebody.

Response by SGM Mario Guindin made Sep 14 at 2016 9:55 PM

2016-09-14T21:55:49-04:00

Hell No..if an E9 does that he/she needs to be demoted...

Response by SGM Mario Guindin made Sep 14 at 2016 10:01 PM

2016-09-14T22:01:22-04:00

Hell No...that butter bar may outrank the E9 but at the end of the day there's is time and place for everything...there's no way I'm going to have a 2LT, not even a CPT..no way, if that E9 allows that kind of stuff he/she needs to be demoted..

Response by SPC Dawn Appelberg (Johnson) made Sep 14 at 2016 10:14 PM

2016-09-14T22:14:03-04:00

Never had the opportunity to see this wonder. However, I did once see an E6 open a door, have a GENERAL come walk in, and have the E6 nod and walk away. Luckilly I did not drop in shock and hollered "ROOM TEN HUT!" Our Colonel had a few choice words for the E6....

Response by SFC James Asbill made Sep 14 at 2016 10:38 PM

2016-09-14T22:38:00-04:00

I saw this happen years ago ... The E-9 complied with the order .. and the next day the O-1 was being transferred to another command .. and I am sure not with a good OER ...

Response by MSG Karl Arrington made Sep 14 at 2016 10:53 PM

2016-09-14T22:53:18-04:00

If a Lieutenant locked up a SGM/CSM, he better be prepared to take on his Bn and/or Bde Cdr as well.

Response by CWO3 William Hanrahan made Sep 14 at 2016 11:24 PM

2016-09-14T23:24:43-04:00

Stupid subject...If provoking replies to this site by posting mostly hypothetical BS is the best that can be done, then perhaps this forum should fold. I think in the collective there's an overwhelming amount of intellectual base out here; therefore there's ample opportunity to provoke thought, stimulate the minds instead of posting crap that results in war story like replies.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Sep 14 at 2016 11:30 PM

2016-09-14T23:30:03-04:00

You bet your sweet ass he would...rank is rank and failure to do so is a violation of military regs and protocols.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2016 1:19 AM

2016-09-15T01:19:55-04:00

I'm only an E-5 and I'd Probably just laugh at them. O-1's don't have much pull

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2016 2:57 AM

2016-09-15T02:57:03-04:00

I would say no, primarily to stir it up, and say what we all really know.

It is true that enlisted swear to uphold orders from officers appointed over them. If you are a Sergeant Major, there is a distinct line of who is appointed over you; you are by no means "second in command" as is a common misconception but at the same time... You technically don't fall into the chain of command at all! You answer to the Commanding Officer- your sole purpose is to ensure that he is safe, looks great, and is able to make the best decision possible through your advice... A 2nd LT is not involved in that system, nor is one ever appointed over an E-9 (if so, a rarity). SNCOS in general are there to advise the commanders to make the right decision. Demanding this in public or private is doing the service, well, a disservice, and will ensure that the senior enlisted may think twice about molding a good officer.

Essentially, if you are a commissioned officer, you better have a damn good reason for putting anyone above E-6 at attention in public. It has it's place and time, to be sure, but keep in mind what messages that sends to juniors, because there is a lot, like: do I respect this senior enlisted now? Do irrespective this micromanaging officer now? Do I want to get promoted? Do I want to reenlist? And many others.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2016 3:51 AM

2016-09-15T03:51:23-04:00

The closest I have seen to this is as a young Infantry CPL a 2LT rapped me on the head for looking drowsy during combat lifesaver course. Immediately he was whisked into the hallway by my SFC PLT SGT and standing at Parade Rest while my PLT SGT invited him to come and talk to the CSM and LTC if he had a doubt where he stood in relation to the rating chain and Soldier welfare.

Response by COL Lee Flemming made Sep 15 at 2016 4:06 AM

2016-09-15T04:06:31-04:00

Professionals...I absolutely believe the E9 would comply, as he should - but...I also unequivocally know that after the fact the officer would run the eventual gambit of senior officers telling the 2LT, 1LT, CPT, MAJ....that it probably was not a good idea and there are other ways. I have been a commissioned officer for 25 years and have never ordered anyone to attention!!!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2016 7:26 AM

2016-09-15T07:26:43-04:00

Yes he would, yes the ass chewing would be epic. but it would be memorable.

Response by SN Sean Willson made Sep 15 at 2016 7:59 AM

2016-09-15T07:59:00-04:00

I recall a similar situation when my Div-O, a Lt., was bumped up the chain and replaced by a shavetail ensign. I had more time in service than him and I was a lowly E-3. Our CPO was a no-nonsense kind of guy with 17 years in. EN Snotnose was attempting to dress down the chief because he showed up to evening muster with paint on his shoes. Chief stood there at attention for the entire speech, about five minutes. After the ensign was done chief did a smart about face, saluted the CMDR behind him and said, "All yours, Sir." We heard the reeducation two decks down.

Response by CPL Dan Mathews made Sep 15 at 2016 8:03 AM

2016-09-15T08:03:00-04:00

Starts at 1:08 ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q-hLyUZS9E

We Were Soldiers Deleted Scene - Soldier Stories (2002) - Mel Gibson War Movie HD

Subscribe to TRAILERS: http://bit.ly/sxaw6h Subscribe to COMING SOON: http://bit.ly/H2vZUn Subscribe to EXTRAS: http://bit.ly/1u431fr Like us on FACEBOOK: ht...

Response by COL John Hudson made Sep 15 at 2016 9:13 AM

2016-09-15T09:13:31-04:00

From the IG Desk: "YES," in answer to the original question. However. I was raised in the Air Force and my father was a Chief Master Sergeant E-9. My brother retired from the Navy as a Master Chief Petty Officer, E-9, and I have held Enlisted, Warrant, and Commissioned rank during my 30-year Army career. The best 'under the table' experiential advice I can offer to anyone out there in ALL branches of our military is there are two positions you don't screw around with: 1) A Senior NCO and 2) A Senior Warrant Officer. These two experts sit with General rank Officers, "run" the military, and one messes them over at risk to one's own backside regardless of who you are.

Response by MSgt Stephanie McCalister made Sep 15 at 2016 10:11 AM

2016-09-15T10:11:46-04:00

The best example I can think of under these circumstances was one I personally experienced ... back as a young airman working in-shop maintenance on sensitive electronic equipment, in the middle of a delicate calibration, the shop was called to attention when a visiting general was escorted through .. I alone didn't stop, nor did I stand. Someone came up behind me and asked me what I was doing, I explained without taking my hands or my eyes off of my job ... over my shoulder I heard someone arguing that I was disrespecting a general officer ... the next question I received was 'what would happen if you stopped in the middle of what you're doing right this moment' .. I replied, still not looking over my shoulder or stopping, 'loss of several manhours, & the delay of a mission waiting on this repair Sir. This equipment calibration would have to be restarted from the beginning, and this is a time sensitive need' ... all those behind me moved away & moved on ... with the general admonishing his escorts as they moved away, that he wasn't there to interrupt the mission, he was there to observe how we do our jobs meeting the mission! Apparently I fulfilled that, because other than the usual break table give & take later on, I never heard anything else about it, LOL. I believe it comes down to prioritizing protocol vs reality - as others have mentioned, RESPECT! Know the circumstances & who or what you're dealing with!

Response by SGT Squire Edmonston made Sep 15 at 2016 11:27 AM

2016-09-15T11:27:54-04:00

Having served at Fort Richardson, my last duty station in the 80's, I was desk bound and working for two Captains. One of which was a true officer and the other was a special kind of a**hole. Capt. P would consistently berate enlisted and considered that his five jumps for his wings made him a hardcore paratrooper. But I digress. I had a buddy who was an E-6 that worked in secure records room down stairs who we called the old man. He was in his mid-forties and Captain P. would always comment that he must have done something wrong or that he was a slacker for not having obtained at least E-7 by now. However, on the day that he retired, it was a beautiful thing. At the retirement ceremony, most of the entire building and a multitude of others attended, Captain P. was standing there when the E-6 walked up...except he wasn't wearing his normal BDUs...he was in full dress, with officer strips, Major oak leafs, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, CIB, Jump Wings, Ranger Tab and a multitude of others ribbons from Vietnam that I did not recognize. When Captain P., who was standing there with just his wings and three non-combat ribbons and had to render that salute....it made me smile. I don't know the whole story, but Captain L. told me that the SSGT. had a battlefield commission in Vietnam, made it to 0-4 and held it long enough to retire at it, but with the cuts in the 1970's he did not have the education for retention in a the peace time army and was offered either a revert to enlisted or separation into reserves as an officer...I still don't fully comprehend that, but for just a minute, it was a beautiful day in the 6th ID....

Response by SSG Lucas Velez made Sep 15 at 2016 11:55 AM

2016-09-15T11:55:12-04:00

i'd take a video camera and record the action of the butter bar getting put into his place...lol

Response by PO3 Chris Wright, MBA made Sep 15 at 2016 12:00 PM

2016-09-15T12:00:20-04:00

I have seen one instance related to this topic.

I was in civilian clothes leaving the barracks and I was walking behind a master chief (in inform). This ensign (butter bar) was walking towards us. The master chief never rendered a salute and kept walking.
The ensign then stopped the master chief and asked, "did you see my rank?" The master chief replied, "I did." The ensign then told master chief you are suppose to salute me and asked how come he didn't. Master chief's reply, "Because I make more money than you!"
Master Chief then turned and walked away. The ensign was standing with a deer in the headlights look on his face.

Response by PO3 Chris Wright, MBA made Sep 15 at 2016 12:08 PM

2016-09-15T12:08:59-04:00

I was walking behind a master chief on base. We passed a ensign and the master chief did not render a salute.
The ensign then stopped the master chief and asked him if he saw his rank, the master chief replied with a yes.
The ensign then said, you have to salute me and how come you didn't? The master chief's reply, "Because I make more fing money than you." The master chief then walked off while the ensign was standing with speechless.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Sep 15 at 2016 12:27 PM

2016-09-15T12:27:54-04:00

I would and did stand at attention for a 2LT.

But two points
1: just because you can does not mean you should.
2: your actions have second and third order ramifications.

I got locked up by an AF Cpt... I stood and took the beratment.
After I went back to doing my job.
a GO that I worked for then came over asked if i needed anything?
I said no sir I'm good

The GO then asked the AF Cpt if he could have a word with her outside

She never returned to the building and her work space was boxed up by a fellow worker.

Response by SGM Patrick Kirby made Sep 15 at 2016 3:02 PM

2016-09-15T15:02:25-04:00

Yes, I would comply: as leaders we are always on display; to not reply is to discredit the young officer and the intregrity of the system. Wold that be the end of it, no. That would be handled between myself the young officer his commander.

Response by SGT(P) Michael H. made Sep 15 at 2016 4:53 PM

2016-09-15T16:53:17-04:00

I actually saw this very thing happen with one of my 1SGs and a newly minted 2LT. She tried to lock up the 1SG in front of most of the Company. UH-OH! And oh, boy!! did the sparks fly. She wound up in his office after he cleared the orderly room, calmly and collectedly, but you could hear him all the way down the hall at the other end of the barracks through his closed door AND the closed double glass doors to the orderly room! She never tried that crap again.

Response by LCpl Domingo Ariza made Sep 15 at 2016 5:56 PM

2016-09-15T17:56:09-04:00

He should demonstrate leadership by example however, you can bet that the 01 will catch hell from the O's that are above him and the two them probably won't have that issue again.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Sep 15 at 2016 6:09 PM

2016-09-15T18:09:29-04:00

If this happens, things got out of hand a long time before. The average LT should understand the power of the E-9. I had the honor of knowing a couple of Air Force flight engineer CMSgts who had fixed airplanes and flown as crew chiefs and engineers for nearly 30 years--they had flown in Korea and Viet Nam. The Captains and Majors in the squadron set the example for us junior officers by showing them a certain measure of respect, like always calling them "Chief" and asking their opinion on issues in their specialty. I learned quickly to call them Chief with about the same respect I called the Squadron Commander, "colonel." They never did anything to make me even remotely consider trying to pull rank on them. Showing such lack of mature communication with a Chief would probably get you a counseling session with your flight commander and possibly with the unit commander depending on the circumstances. This is not to say that the Chiefs were perfect. If a LT found a problem with a Chief as long as it didn't immediatley effect safety, security, or mission accomplishment, the best thing to do is to talk with your chain of command. The Squadron Commander can talk with the Chief if necessary.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2016 11:38 PM

2016-09-15T23:38:50-04:00

I always find discussions like this interesting, for so long as I have been in the Army.... I spent 7 years enlisted, and now 12 as an officer, and never have I seen this play out in real life. I have had the good fortune of serving with Soldiers of all ranks who were generally respectful to others and cognizant of their place in Army. Honestly, I think at the end of the day, polite, professional leaders on both sides of the isle will never find themselves in this situation. Officers are generally respected by NCOs for their rank, and NCOs are respected by Officers for their experience. Would the 2LT in this scenario be a pretentious little fool? Most definitely! Would the hypothetical SGM be acting in an unprofessional and arrogant manner too? Again I think the answer is yes. One thing is for sure though, if we treat each other with respect, and act like the true military professionals we are expected to be, we will never find ourselves in this situation.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2016 9:46 PM

2016-09-17T21:46:31-04:00

Yes of course that E9 would comply. however that incident would be closely followed by a visit to their commander. You always have to remember that E9's work for 06 and above That Lieutenant will learn very quickly the error of their ways. And that would be from their own command

Response by SSG Kyle Stromgren made Sep 24 at 2016 3:33 AM

2016-09-24T03:33:28-04:00

Being as the CSM can move every enlisted member around the bn that LT shouldn't do that end up with all the low performance types in his plt. My father told me about that happening in his bn

Response by CSM Louis Rothenstein made Sep 29 at 2016 2:18 PM

2016-09-29T14:18:03-04:00

Absolutely. Saluting all commissioned and warrant officers is written in concrete.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 1 at 2016 11:54 PM

2016-10-01T23:54:57-04:00

According to regs yes but reallity, no, never seen it, won't happen. There was a LT whom during a 101st division run tried to pull that on the division SGM, that SGM not only put him in his place but that LT also received a GOMOR for the division commander

Response by SSG Michael Petsch made Oct 19 at 2016 11:49 AM

2016-10-19T11:49:43-04:00

I once was told, "Respect the Colonel, Fear the CSM."

Response by SSgt Martin Wise made Oct 19 at 2016 11:55 AM

2016-10-19T11:55:38-04:00

I come from a very different time. Today as I see it many things have changed in our military in all branches. I was in back in the early 80's and a 01 or an 02 for that matter would never even think of trying to call an E9 out like that. An 03 might think twice and use some tact in addressing the E9

In 83 I was at Little Rock AFB and our flight line expediter was and E9. We had a training crew that didn't want to fly and repeatedly would break the airplane in efforts to not fly the mission. Our E9 got fed up and went into to flight deck and told the 03 in the left seat to either fly or get off his acft. The 03 snapped at the E9 and found his flight bags being thrown out the crew entrance door. The E9 told the 03 to meet him in his commander's office in 20. Outcome was the 03 flew the mission and kept his mouth shut.

Response by PO1 Ron Clark made Oct 19 at 2016 1:02 PM

2016-10-19T13:02:25-04:00

The E9 is required by UCMJ to come to attention, because even though the O1 is a junior officer, he is a Commissioned Officer and therefore the E9's superior. The O1 calling this E9 to attention in front of his troops would not be the brightest bulb in the light socket. One way would be for the O1 to tell the E9 that he would like to speak to him after formation privately! IJS!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2016 1:03 PM

2016-10-19T13:03:40-04:00

Yes it can happen, and has happened - at my previous Army unit during my decade of membership before I transferred into the AF. It was at that point we (as NCO's) learned that our new PL was a flagrant douche, yet, we said nothing. About an hour later, both the SGM and the PL were in the Commander's office and the SGM could be heard screaming at the PL (while taking corrective action at the Commander's behest). It wasn't pretty, and our PL remained subdued and in an observational/learning capacity for several weeks, following that incident. He actually turned out to be a pretty good leader once he was made aware of his surroundings, and his place in the pecking order. No frivolous paperwork, no ridiculous notions, just a loud and swift redirect, and he did well without losing his motivation and morale. He's a Commander, now....and a good one, from what I've been told.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2016 1:06 PM

2016-10-19T13:06:21-04:00

Yet another story but true.

CSM Du, little angry man from the Philippines . At the time CSM for 3rd BDE 2nd ID at Ft Lewis.
This 2nd LT had the intestinal fortitude to tell CSM Du to go to the position of attention when talking to him. He did this in front of the BDE CMD Col. Townsend, who is now Ft Bragg deputy CMDR. The LT was told to grab his S%#$ and find a new job....... he was gone never to be seen again. CSM Du smoked the entire BDE a few times including officers up to the O4 level.

Response by Sgt Red Ford made Oct 19 at 2016 1:13 PM

2016-10-19T13:13:48-04:00

Ugh! Prissy butterbars. As a lowly E-5 my car wouldn't start so I jogged/power walked 2 miles to my squadron in a lovely North Carolina summer. I was just about to hit the hanger when a butterbar came walking out. My mind on being late and in a hurry I blew past him without saluting. He called me out on it and I apologized and saluted. He then proceeded to lecture me on a salute being a show of respect for officers. I replied that a salute was a courtesy extended to officers. In his position he was given the opportunity to earn our respect. I ended up having a conversation with the CO, again. (We knew each other fairly well by then.) The CO agreed with my point and strongly suggested that I remember to extend the proper courtesy to officers in the future. I don't know what transpired between the CO and the Lieutenant after I was dismissed but the next day the Lieutenant stopped by my shop and had a decent conversation with me. We ended up getting along fairly well.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2016 1:22 PM

2016-10-19T13:22:01-04:00

Yes, the CSM/SGM would have to comply. But there is much more to this issue. Why are the SGM/CSM and 2LT having a disagreement? What could they possibly be talking about where there is disagreement? Where is the 2LT's PSG and why isn't he involved in this? If the SGM/CSM and 2LT are disagreeing and it comes to the 2LT pulling rank, things have already gone downhill where really the only option the SGM/CSM has at that point is to snap to, say "yes Sir!!", and move out. THAT is what a squared away SGM/CSM would do. Disrespecting the 2LT is not something I would expect from a SGM/CSM.

NOW, the 2LT can most likely expect a chat forthcoming from the SGM/CSM's commander (a LTC at the least) and depending on what the disagreement was, it will be a learning experience for the 2LT. SGM/CSMs don't get to where they are by not knowing a lot of stuff. I imagine an apology from the 2LT to the SGM/CSM would be forthcoming after that chat. I have had 3 CSMs during my command time and 2 of them were outstanding. My subordinate officers understood that if the CSM was telling them something, 99.9% of the time the CSM and I had already discussed it and he and I were on the same page. The other .1% of the time the CSM knew my intent and command philosophy and they would be wise to listen to him. The Bn CSM and Bn XO are what I call freebies. Subordinate officers should seek out their counsel and do it often. That said, I would personally get a kick out of a 2LT with the balls to lock the heels of my CSM and would probably rag my CSM mercilessly (behind closed doors of course) if it happened to him. But if that ever happened, unless my CSM was so wrong as to violate UCMJ or get somebody injured, the 2LT would learn to never do that again. My approach when disagreeing with any subordinate is to hear everything, make a decision, then have them execute. The only time you should have to pull rank is when someone is disrespecting a superior. When that happens, the subordinate has lost military bearing and the superior has allowed conditions to fester where the subordinate feels it is acceptable to disrespect them. Not good no matter how you look at it.

Regarding addressing Soldiers, I always call them by their rank and last name. No first names. They earned their rank and whatever it is, deserves respect, a Private as much as a General.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2016 1:26 PM

2016-10-19T13:26:29-04:00

As a Navy O-3 training at an Army command before deployment to Afghanistan, I called an Army CSM to attention. Why? Because from 30 feel away, in front of my junior enlisted, he screamed, "Hey, LT, get your ass over here right now!!" and pointed at the ground right at his feet. I turned to him and said CSM, can I help you? To which he repeated himself. I pointed to a telephone pole nearby and told him I'd meet him over there. When he arrived, his unprofessional tone continued and he stepped into my personal space. At that point, I placed him at attention and explained that I was a 39-year old Navy O-3 and that while I respected his device greatly, I would not be treated in such a way as to undermine my authority with my sailors. Was he butt hurt about it? You bet. Did we have a conversation with the O-6? No because he knew I was right. So there may be a time when it's OK. But those times should be really really rare.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2016 1:31 PM

2016-10-19T13:31:27-04:00

It wont be pretty for the O1(especially if he is just got his GWOT last night).

Response by CSM Brian Sann made Oct 19 at 2016 1:47 PM

2016-10-19T13:47:57-04:00

As a retired CSM, I will tell you that I would have followed the 2LTs order. We should maintain the standards at all times. Even the lowest TIG officer still outranks the most senior NCO. Upon completion of said discussion however, we would have had a mentoring session on my role and authority within the organization. I never forgot my role of teaching and mentoring all officers to include LTC/COLs when I served at the 2 Star Nominative level. It is a tremendous amount of responsibility when you sit next to the Boss and you speak on their behalf. It does take a mature person to understand how to communicate and support meeting the CDRs intent while supporting the leaders at all levels.

Response by SFC Barry Wiseman made Oct 19 at 2016 2:04 PM

2016-10-19T14:04:52-04:00

Well the SGM would do it, but Lord have mercy on that Lt when the SGM pulls him into see the Bn Cdr. And that Lt would not be well accepted or appreciated by his peers or senior Officers. He has pretty much ended his chances in that Bn and especially at Company level

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2016 2:27 PM

2016-10-19T14:27:23-04:00

This type of conversation always amuses me. Honestly there isn't really a time when this should happen but sometimes people have chips on their shoulders or just haven't been trained yet. There is a formal rank structure and then there is common sense. Even a junior, yeah I said junior, E9 usually has about or over 20yrs in service and has earned the respect of those around him/her. If there is ever a situation when an LT feels the need to push this issue I am sure it will be handled professionally and the young leader would get mentored and counseled by their senior officers before the CSM. Again, I have my own opinion on this topic and don't want this post to turn into a FB type string on nonsense. I personally have never had an issue with any officer when conducting my duties as a CSM. Respect goes both ways and they usually know what level you are working and show the respect accordingly.

Response by SFC Wayne Theilen made Oct 19 at 2016 2:29 PM

2016-10-19T14:29:03-04:00

I had a new butter bar lock me up ONCE. Then we went and played pushball. He never did it again

Response by SPC William Weedman made Oct 19 at 2016 2:38 PM

2016-10-19T14:38:28-04:00

Don't think this is exactly in line, but when we got a new 2LT in our unit in Korea, after a few weeks of orientation he was finally in out in our work area. He made it clear that he was a new LT and that he expected our SFC to mentor him, and he wanted us privates to teach him. That attitude from a new LT immediately got my respect.

Response by MSG Brian McDow made Oct 19 at 2016 2:52 PM

2016-10-19T14:52:40-04:00

Once, I aggressively informed a new Lt. That his place was to watch, learn, go to meetings and distribute information. Training is my arena not his. Needless to say I operated for 10 years as a platoon Sergeant and did well.

Response by SGT Chris Whidden made Oct 19 at 2016 3:10 PM

2016-10-19T15:10:22-04:00

I've seen this happen with a 2LT trying to lock up the theater Sergeant Major in Iraq. I was blown away, but of course this LT was not exactly known for his brilliance. It didn't end well for the 2LT....

Response by SrA Kyle Saritelli made Oct 19 at 2016 3:17 PM

2016-10-19T15:17:19-04:00

These comments remind me of when I was an E-3 stationed at Fort Meade. Due to NSA being there, every summer saw a dozen or so Air Force Academy cadets passing through. Just before they would come in we'd get a briefing to remind us to treat them with respect but that they are not officers and so they don't requiring saluting or being called sir and such.

A was walking back to my dorm, think I was coming home from work, and say good afternoon to one and kept walking. Next thing I hear is him shouting "Airman! Turn around and come over here, now!" I walk back and ask if needed any help. "First off, give me your reporting statement. Second, you rush over when you're called, not stroll over. Third, I'm an officer and you better salute me when you see me!" I tried explaining to him that he is not an officer and not entitled to a salute. As he's yelling at me I see my CO walking up and prepare to salute him. He waves me off and gets behind this cadet and just stands there and listens for a moment. The cadet tells me to get to attention and render him his salute and that's when my CO nodded to me and I saluted my CO. He returns the salute and I drop mine and the Vader goes ballistic now. "How dare you lower your salute. You keep your hand up until I tell you to put it down. Now you but your arm back up and keep it there!" "Actually, I think he was saluting me." The cadet spins around, "how dare you interrupt me, who do you.....", relizes he's now yelling at an O-5, snaps to attention and renders his salute. My CO dismisses me and starts in on the cadet and isn't returning the salute making the cadet hold his arm up.

My CO at the time was a former Navy enlisted man that instead of taking Chief decided to switch to Air Force and become an officer. At the time he'd been in service for a total of 35 years and was getting ready to retire. Had more ribbons and medals then could fit on his dress uniform. He was the kind of CO that anyone would want, over 500 people in the unit and he knew everyone's name and something about them outside of work. He was't keen on Academy students, especially the ones with superiority complexes.

Response by PO1 Frank Haynes made Oct 19 at 2016 3:50 PM

2016-10-19T15:50:48-04:00

To maintain proper decorum, yes, the E9 should. A private conversation with the O1 and his superior officer would be called for afterward, though.

Response by SGT Paul Ernst made Oct 19 at 2016 4:11 PM

2016-10-19T16:11:23-04:00

I think this falls under "just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it."

Response by SPC Russel Brock made Oct 19 at 2016 4:26 PM

2016-10-19T16:26:20-04:00

In my 8 yr career in the Army as a 13M20....I never saw a butter bar ever lock up a CSM. In the Artillery. That butter bar would have smoked like a bad Korean cigarette.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2016 4:27 PM

2016-10-19T16:27:14-04:00

I saw it twice in my 24 years and both were train wrecks in the most professional manner!

Response by CSM Troy Hester made Oct 19 at 2016 4:35 PM

2016-10-19T16:35:33-04:00

Yes

Response by SSG Ray Petersen made Oct 19 at 2016 5:00 PM

2016-10-19T17:00:00-04:00

Of course by oath and rank of course but there had better be a good reason that an O1 is locking up that CSM... it is all situation dictation. If that CSM is doing something dumb and dangerous, of course.. other than that I would grab the popcorn and watch the hilarity unfold. I am looking to become an officer (OCS) and I will look to the SNCO's for guidance, they have the experience that I don't have and I would work hand in hand with them to build my skill set.

Response by SPC Gentrie Cui made Oct 19 at 2016 5:24 PM

2016-10-19T17:24:47-04:00

Reading these comments reminded me of this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoUkh1wpxxg

Stupid shit that 2nd LT's say

We all know what it's like to get a new LT... http://gruntstyle.com/

Response by SPC Gentrie Cui made Oct 19 at 2016 5:28 PM

2016-10-19T17:28:28-04:00

Not really relevant but....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoUkh1wpxxg

Stupid shit that 2nd LT's say

We all know what it's like to get a new LT... http://gruntstyle.com/

Response by CPL Rich C. Snyder made Oct 19 at 2016 5:51 PM

2016-10-19T17:51:27-04:00

Of course he would. The total destruction of the young officer later on would be priceless to see.

Response by PO1 Dennis DeStefano made Oct 19 at 2016 6:25 PM

2016-10-19T18:25:48-04:00

The way I see it is an E9 were in a conversation with the O-1 and that took a turn for the worst, a E-9 that was worthy of being called MasterChief, CSM or the other various titles would have come to attention rendered a salute and asked the O-1 to come in for a cup of coffee, where the real education would begin. Leaders applaud in public and chastise in private. The rules of the game are the same you show respect for the utensils hanging off the uniform not the years of service. I have ran into a huge amount of Officers that I had no respect for except their rank and yet it was always Yes Sir, will that be all Sir etc.

I have a seas story as well about my first week underway and my Chief Petty Officer and our new Ensign. But it pretty much goes along the same old salt stories we have all read and written.

Response by SGT Chris Tilton made Oct 19 at 2016 6:31 PM

2016-10-19T18:31:25-04:00

I haven't seen that one before, but when I was a private in korea we had a badass csm who we knew not to trifle with. One day at the range we had a 2lt try and tell him off about some kind of range procedure. All of us privates exited the scene just far enough away so we could still hear the CSM screaming and cursing.

Response by CH (COL) Michael Walker made Oct 19 at 2016 6:49 PM

2016-10-19T18:49:26-04:00

At AFROTC camp many years ago my PAS, an "old" (hey, I was 18 at the time!) Colonel with hundreds of hours in the F-4 over Vietnam (his second war), gathered all of the Cadets together one night and said, "Two years from now, when you have your degrees and gold bars, find some Master Sergeant to work for until that bar turns silver and you actually know something." (As an AF Brat, I had watched my Officer father threat all of his NCOs with respect, so the Colonel's words were not lost on me.)

Almost thirty years later, as a Colonel on the staff of an Army Reserve Division, I got a call from the Division CSM about something he believed I was doing wrong. My response, "Hold on about two minutes, Sergeant Major. I'll be right down." I went to HIS office, not asking him to come to mine, and he gave me a lesson, from the Senior NCO perspective, on how to do a better job on this task. Mutual respect across the board. His job at that moment, as a fellow team member, was to help me do a better job, and we both understood that.

Response by SFC Bruce Pettengill made Oct 19 at 2016 7:14 PM

2016-10-19T19:14:05-04:00

As an MP in the Army and lower enlisted soldier, we had a saying do not confuse your rank with my authority. A CSM is assigned at a minimum of a Battalion level, An 01 the maximum would be a Platoon Leader. I can't imagine the circumstances where an 01 would be in a situation where he would be ordering anyone other than his Plt members to attention. I guarantee the First Plt Sgt that worked with the 01 instructed him in the way things worked.

Response by MSgt Christopher Schoen made Oct 19 at 2016 7:22 PM

2016-10-19T19:22:01-04:00

O-1 vs E-9? If an E-9 "allows" this to happen then there is a reason and good luck to that 0-1...the nuclear fallout will be painful. But, for the most part, by law, yes. Advisable? No. I think I would rather pour cayenne pepper in my eyes than jacking up an E-9 in front of everyone.

Response by SPC Emily Mathers Blue made Oct 19 at 2016 7:29 PM

2016-10-19T19:29:51-04:00

Response by SFC Nigel Johnson made Oct 19 at 2016 8:35 PM

2016-10-19T20:35:58-04:00

Tell him to get the f__k outta here.

Response by SFC Marvin Smith made Oct 19 at 2016 8:37 PM

2016-10-19T20:37:06-04:00

First off what is the LT doing in the CSM AO. Oh wait he is lost. A LT should never be in NCO business. They only come together in a formal setting. In the field a CSM is either with the CO or he is doing NCO business. As a platoon sergeant I personally never saw a CSM or SM or 1st SGT sitting down in a common area. AND I never saw a Lieutenant or Captain address anything with a CSM or SM. I guess its more of a common occurrence with POG's

Response by CDR Ron Brunson made Oct 19 at 2016 8:47 PM

2016-10-19T20:47:30-04:00

My Dad, who was a USN O6 gave me 2 pieces of advice before I graduated from USNA in '76: (1) When you report to your first Div Off job, get hold of the Division CPO/LPO and tell them that you don't know squat and ask them to teach you everything they know about the Division and the people. When I was comfortable, I was to let them know that I had the con. I had the greatest relationship with the senior enlisted personnel on the ship. If I needed something, I only needed to ask. (2) Stay away from short red-faced, red-haired senior officers. They'll eat your lunch every minute of the day and night!! My first XO was short, red-faced, red-haired asshole, and yes, he felt it was his sole mission in life to make life miserable for the wardroom. There's no need to order a senior NCO to attention for any reason if there's mutual respect.

Response by LtCol Dennis Ivan made Oct 19 at 2016 9:01 PM

2016-10-19T21:01:28-04:00

If the E9 doesn't have the professionalism to obey a direct order from an officer he doesn't deserve to be an E9 and if I saw him refuse such an order he would face charges for it.

That said, the E9 should also know how and when to properly instruct and discuss the issue as a professional in private.

Response by PO2 Loren Gilmore made Oct 19 at 2016 9:21 PM

2016-10-19T21:21:13-04:00

I have read allot of these comments and what I gather from the lot is respect. Both parties need to show the respect of the rank or position. Know that it doesn't bide well for the new Officer to be putting a Senior Enlisted to attention if they expect to have a long career just as it doesn't do the Senior Enlisted any good. Respect on both sides behind closed doors will take both parties far. Doc Gilly.

Response by SGT Mark Friedman made Oct 19 at 2016 9:27 PM

2016-10-19T21:27:53-04:00

In front of people or in private?.... I saw a E9 SGM who was over 60 years old and had almost 40 years of federal service take apart a 25 year old O2 in public at Fort McCoy at summer camp one year....was his last year and he was one his last nerve with this one....I think the O6 talked with him afterwards but the E9 was on short time...we got back, August drill was his retirement party and his last drill was October

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2016 9:57 PM

2016-10-19T21:57:55-04:00

one afternoon after getting to the squadron and hearing a bird was down for critical maintenance after a pilot messed it up upon landing i was walking by maitenance control and saw through the window on the door this particular pilot (O-3 or O-4 but cant remeber which) standing by the maintenance control counter. On the other side of the counter was our warrant officer who was incharge of the material condition of all 8 of our helos just screaming at this pilot (who caused the damage to the aircraft) while all the E-7s, E-8s, and the one E-9 (maitenance master chief) that ran maitenance control just standing around watching but not saying anything. Needless to say i carried on quickly after briefly witnessing that because i didnt want to run the risk of them seeing me through the window and getting my own @$$ chewing. Officers might have the rank but the chiefs mess and warrants have the power

Response by Col Tom Lytle made Oct 19 at 2016 10:05 PM

2016-10-19T22:05:40-04:00

I wish I'd had an E-9 to advise me when I was an O-1, but I didn't. Only a ROAD E-6. And I made a lot of mistakes. Would to G-d I'd had a senior enlisted person to protect me from my inexperience, And I'll pass my everlasting gratitude to AME1 Griffin who took me under his wing.

Response by 1SG Daniel Foote made Oct 19 at 2016 10:12 PM

2016-10-19T22:12:14-04:00

As a 1SG I was called to attention by a 2LT once. I was in the middle of instructing my NCOs on what needed to get done that day, when this 2LT barged in to the closed door meeting we were having (no knock, no excuse me, just opened the door and walked in). I was mid-sentence, when he asked me, "What the hell do you think you're doing"? My reply was along the lines of "NCO business and so I'd appreciate you leaving my AO". He told me to shut my "piehole" and come to attention when addressing an officer. I complied before requesting a meeting in my office. The young 2LT refused. No problem. My NCOs witnessed this 2LT being unprofessional and me continually calling him Lieutenant. or sir. At one point, I explained to my NCOs we would continue with our meeting later and I went and spoke to our Hospital Commander, a Col. that I could talk to and who had once told me who ran the unit - ME! So, I explained what happened and handed her the statements my NCOs volunteered to write. Then I asked her for a meeting with the 2LT. During the meeting, she explained to the 2LT that that had been his one and only time to do this and the next time she would allow me to handle the situation as I saw fit. Then I was dismissed from the meeting, without ever being able to say a word. About 30 minutes later, the 2LT knocked on my office door and asked if we could "work together". To this day I have no idea what the Col. said to him, but nothing was ever said about the incident again.

Response by Sgt Gregg Danielson made Oct 19 at 2016 11:24 PM

2016-10-19T23:24:42-04:00

Yes the e9 would have to comply with that lawful order

Response by PO2 Andy Tuzinski made Oct 19 at 2016 11:35 PM

2016-10-19T23:35:08-04:00

I saw the opposite as a Navy Corpsman working alongside Marines. Field Medical Service School, Camp Pendleton, April 1986. Gunney Kleinchieck at one end of the parade ground, "Lieutenant, get your ass over here now!" 2LT (prior enlisted) flashed across the parade ground and stood at attention for his chewing out.

Response by SGT Josh Pamplona made Oct 19 at 2016 11:40 PM

2016-10-19T23:40:14-04:00

Had this happen once in Iraq. Mission brief being given by a 1LT from the bsb which happened to be a friend of mine, and still is. My squadron CSM kept jumping in and changing what the Lt was saying, Lt finally yelled at ease, at which point the CSM gave a death glare and walked off. Fast forward to post deployment, our CSM became the brigade CSM. The LT never understood why he was getting all the shit details.

Response by SSG Lon Watson made Oct 19 at 2016 11:49 PM

2016-10-19T23:49:35-04:00

This is such a retarded question it doesn't bear answering. Any 2LT who tried this is a moron....and probably an untabbed moron!

Response by PFC Steven Flores made Oct 19 at 2016 11:59 PM

2016-10-19T23:59:04-04:00

This one time after running about four miles for a friday motivational run o e of our platoon sergeants fell out.After getting back to the battery our first sergeant chewed out the platoon sergeant right in front of everyone in the battery stretching

Response by Sgt Charles Welling made Oct 20 at 2016 12:11 AM

2016-10-20T00:11:08-04:00

The fact that this is being discussed is telling of today. It is much like a conversation I saw in which a warrant officer questioned saluting a 2nd Lt. Maybe the Marine Corps is different, but superior officer is not debatable.

Response by SA Tim Hyde made Oct 20 at 2016 12:26 AM

2016-10-20T00:26:45-04:00

If the shave tail had any sense he wouldn't show his stupidity by calling an E9 to attention in the first place, but, technically, yes the E9 would be remiss if he did not comply.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 12:28 AM

2016-10-20T00:28:46-04:00

Stand back because hilarity will ensue

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 12:47 AM

2016-10-20T00:47:05-04:00

Years ago when I was a young SPC (E4), one of my friends and I were walking in front of the building that housed the Troop Commanders and the HHT barracks. Our CSM stopped us to talk about an upcoming field exercise (he was known for this throughout the Squadron). A Soldier walked by, stopped after passing us, turned around and asked why we hadn't saluted. The CSM realizing it was an officer (a CPT) went to attention and saluted as my friend an I stood at attention. After saluting the CSM tried to explain that we were in conversation and he had't noticed the officers rank. He started to apologize but the CPT cut him off, put him at attention and proceeded to "correct" the error of the CSM's ways. The CSM raised an eyebrow and stood at attention the entire time. When the CPT was done he asked if he was dismissed. The CPT said yes so the CSM saluted again and walked off. As the CSM was leaving the CPT looked at us and said "let this be a lesson to you." We headed to Squadron HQs to finish some work we were doing. After about 15 minutes we were headed towards the front door of the HQs when in walked a particular CPT from earlier. He knocked on the Squadron Commander's door. We decided to stick around. Needless to say the conversation could be heard through the closed door and it was one sided. As the CPT was leaving he passed the CSM in the hallway and apologized. The CSM never said anything to the Squadron CO. Apparently the Command Group Admin Assistant, a civilian, had witnessed the incident and informed the Squadron CO.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 4:59 AM

2016-10-20T04:59:39-04:00

I had this happen to me as I was walking into the McKellars Lodge on Ft. Bragg....IT WAS HILARIOUS!!! I think my laughing at him made him more madder!! I simply told the young LT that "Sir....This has been a very bad day...1st off...my wife told me that she wanted a divorce, 2nd...my teenage daughter told me that she was pregnant, SOOOO...I was thinking about killing somebody and I really may start with you!! The group of NCO's following him...ALL STARTED LAUGHING and one of the MSG's pulled the youngster aside and escorted him on in the lodge....my boss heard about the incident and literally fell off the tailgate of a HUMMV he was sitting on, then proceeded to look at the XO and told him to "go fetch the young DUMBASS and bring him to my office"!!! That was the first time a 2nd LT ever apologized to me!!! The kid has ended up being one of the best officers I have ever known!!!

Response by CSM Andrew Perrault made Oct 20 at 2016 5:58 AM

2016-10-20T05:58:52-04:00

As the battalion CSM every soldier enlisted or officer that was assigned to the battalion came into my office for a talk, there was no doubt when they left who was there to help them. Had many officers seek out my advice. Never had issues with officers. Part of the BN Cdr's brief to newly assigned officers was if the CSM suggests you do whatever consider it came from me. If a LT called me to attention I would comply, but we would be having a one on one talk shortly after.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 6:33 AM

2016-10-20T06:33:17-04:00

LT: SGM, do you have change for a dollar?
SGM: Sure, LT
LT: That's no way to address an officer! Now let's try it again. Do you have change for a dollar?
SGM: No, SIR!

Response by SGT Robert Crowley made Oct 20 at 2016 6:57 AM

2016-10-20T06:57:36-04:00

Yes, enlisted always salutes officers

Response by LCpl William Perry made Oct 20 at 2016 7:29 AM

2016-10-20T07:29:27-04:00

In the Corps once you hit Gunny I see nothing but respect from enlisted and officers as well. Those stripes come with years of dedication and hard work. From E-7 to E-9 are areas of RESPECT by all and admiration by enlisted. Semper Fi!

Response by 1SG Charles Lyons made Oct 20 at 2016 7:47 AM

2016-10-20T07:47:15-04:00

He has no choice ... its in his oath of enlistment!

Response by PO2 Joseph Fast made Oct 20 at 2016 7:47 AM

2016-10-20T07:47:48-04:00

Had an O-1 tell other officers that my Senior Chief worked for her. She had some words for her and put her in her place lol.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 7:49 AM

2016-10-20T07:49:13-04:00

I have seen for myself an E7 put an O1 in his place. And when it was over that Smoke was walking around like it wasnt a thing. He had an ora around him like he was the next best thing to Jesus.

Response by MSG Lou Wig made Oct 20 at 2016 7:55 AM

2016-10-20T07:55:38-04:00

2LT out ranks a CSM....

Response by SSG David Kaelin made Oct 20 at 2016 8:13 AM

2016-10-20T08:13:48-04:00

I've seen it a couple of times. It's always pretty hilarious except for those rare kids who didn't quite grasp the concept. A squared away CSM is a powerful thing.

The only time that I've seen a Senior NCO deserve it was when the guy was on ROADs. Had a few of them. Even those guys, though, would rarely be so Roadied out that they'd take shit from a brand new 2LT.

Response by PO2 Samuel Lewis made Oct 20 at 2016 9:28 AM

2016-10-20T09:28:29-04:00

tgechnically yes because of rank but we all know better.

Response by AN Mike Lentz made Oct 20 at 2016 9:57 AM

2016-10-20T09:57:29-04:00

Has too it depends on the situation if a captain / colonel walks in or a flag officer if the 01 calls for attention you snap to it as i said it depends on situation

Response by 1LT William H. made Oct 20 at 2016 10:26 AM

2016-10-20T10:26:07-04:00

Sometimes, very rarely, it is the CSM out of line, way out of line. And usually the sign of some pretty toxic leadership. When I was a young O-1, I came upon a SGM (not a CSM but still an E-9) with two of my squad leaders at parade rest screaming his head of in an unprofessional and undignified manner. I approached the SGM and asked him to step away for a second to tell me what was going on. He then tells me he doesn't have time for "my ass".

That was when I told this piece of shit "to get at attention when he talked to me" "he was welcome to call my chain of command" and in 30 words or less tell me what his issue was. Seems this his personal crusade against improperly bloused BDU pant legs, and having two junior NCOs stand at attention while he berated them in public was his idea of corrective action.

So yeah, O-1 locks up E-9.

Response by PFC Bruce Flaherty made Oct 20 at 2016 10:39 AM

2016-10-20T10:39:13-04:00

Yes he would; and the o-1(small o) would NEVER make that mistake again. Just a personal view point from a career E-3.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 11:32 AM

2016-10-20T11:32:21-04:00

Of course he would have to, but I'm sure afterwards the LT would be talked to about his place in the food chain.

Response by SSG Micheal Bowden made Oct 20 at 2016 11:43 AM

2016-10-20T11:43:18-04:00

The E-9 would have to comply because an officer is over an Enlisted regardless of rank. It's called respecting the rank. You don't have to respect the person but you must respect the rank.

Response by LCpl Michael Stanley made Oct 20 at 2016 11:45 AM

2016-10-20T11:45:24-04:00

This really would depend on who was around. If it is only the 2 men, likely the younger one would get a lesson on respect for elders, followed by a build them back up moment. if it were a group of people then I would expect the E-9 to show the respect for the rank in front of him, followed by a personal meeting soon there after. E-9 get where they are because they lead by good example typically. Not to mention they have a high level of respect for the military and traditions. Ultimately the young officer would soon get a lesson in some of those traditions, the one where the salty old dog teaches officers how to be leaders of men.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 12:04 PM

2016-10-20T12:04:32-04:00

As a new 2Lt, I had Brigade Staff Duty (as we all did) and the MPs brought the CSM into the Brigade Headquarters. He was being "detained" for a domestic issue. I called Brigade Commander (BDE XO wasn't answering) and he told me to tell the CSM to stay in the office until he got there. I told him "Sir, no CSM in the world is going to listen to a 2Lt". He started laughing and said you're right, put him on the phone. Later, my Battalion Commander asked me why the Brigade Commander thought I was one of his smartest Lts. I didn't tell him about the CSM issue- wasn't my place. I just let it go. My father was a senior NCO- helped me know when to stay quite.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 12:43 PM

2016-10-20T12:43:13-04:00

I was carrying a couple slave cables out the front door of our armory and here comes a LTC carrying a printer( me was a PFC,oh joy). We passed each other and locked eyes, and said "Wanna forget this happened sir?" His response was " Ya damn skippy Private, carry on."

Response by SFC Robert White made Oct 20 at 2016 12:56 PM

2016-10-20T12:56:26-04:00

all i can sat to this is this. as a soldier/salior/airman/marine we are all taught to respect those who our rank us. respect goes up it does not have to do down. with that. yes CSM/SGM would have to go to attention address the LT apporpriately. after all is said and done. when tempers calm down, if in the same battalion meeting with the BC would be at hand to school the young officer on leadeship respect and dignity. if was a LT from another unit then there would be phone calls made. and yes PSGs train LTs 1sgt/MSG train capt. and SGM/CSM tain and work with MAJ and above. and when i say train. keep in mind that most of the times an NCO is in position for 3 to 6 years. where an officer is typically in postion for 18month so teh SGM and CSM would train thier officers on customs and practicies of the unit but also support (role of the chain of support) the chain of command once a desicion is made. now for that young LT. he will have his feelings hurt, hopefully he/she can learn from it and move on and take a positive lesson from it. now with that being said. I have seen a CPT tell the BN CSM you will do as I say when I say to do it the capt was prior enlisted, they were in a pissinig contest (jubject i can't remember) but after all cooled down you seen the two of them laughing and joking. and yes the cpt did appologize to the CSM with something to the effect of SGT MAJ, sorry about that man, i was just pissed and you caught it. they shook hands and was done.

Response by CPL David Brown made Oct 20 at 2016 1:07 PM

2016-10-20T13:07:18-04:00

CSM would laugh his ass off everytime

Response by SSG Grant Hansen made Oct 20 at 2016 1:06 PM

2016-10-20T13:06:54-04:00

Yes, they would. After all, senior NCOs must set the example for the other soldiers. But if the E-9 was ordered to do so in a disrespectful manner or tone, it would likely end up with the 0-1 standing in front of the Bn. CO.

I've seen a lot of new officers forget that just because they happen to outrank someone doesn't mean they know more or don't have to show respect. That's why most of the best officers I have ever met are prior enlisted, usually former NCOs.

Response by SrA Patrick Neader made Oct 20 at 2016 1:20 PM

2016-10-20T13:20:20-04:00

You obey orders. Its part of your oath. You might not like it but it's the rank structure.

Response by CPT Clint Connell made Oct 20 at 2016 2:22 PM

2016-10-20T14:22:31-04:00

I was only in Army for a short while as a 2LT, then a 1LT. I never encountered a senior or mid-level NCO who showed me anything less than professional respect. I reciprocated, and everyone got along. This scenario has less to do with being an officer than it does with being a general all-around turd.

Response by SSG Erik Jensen Jr. made Oct 20 at 2016 2:28 PM

2016-10-20T14:28:15-04:00

The baddest CSM I knew was about 5ft 6 and the I am sure he would have come to attention, about 2 inches from the 2Lt. I once ask him why he always got that close to people and his response was, if I can make you nervous by standing close to you, what does that say about you with dealing with stress.

Response by SGT Tony Shope made Oct 20 at 2016 2:53 PM

2016-10-20T14:53:08-04:00

I was a seasoned NCO and rated among the best. We had a new LT. in Kuwait who just could not have any less common sense. I repeated advised that his plan of action would result in definite mission failure. He chewed my ass up and down in front of the other SQL's and I said 6 bags full charlie mike LT. Well he screwed it all up and damn near got troops killed when I told the troops to do what we had trained for. I was briefed before the AAR by the Regimental CSM. That he was going to call me out in front of the Colonel & Cdr & )-1 (both briefed by the RCSM but I did not know that) The RSCM asks me why I let a poor new 0-1 set up a mission that could cause casualities and destroy the op sec. I replied I failed Sergeant Major. The Colonel tells me to wait outside the tent and yells Bullshit Sgt that will never happen again if you want to keep that rank. I leave puzzled a bit. Then as I wait outside the tent I hear the Colonel ask the Lieutenant what he recommended. The LT threw me under the bus and said I would have taken his advice had it been offered. The Colonel then got pissed. He screamed at the LT go pack your shit, your headed stateside. I spoke to the troops you Lying bastard. That is a fine NCO. I felt like a god and then the Colonel told me never put up with any shit from a rookie. You have a problem make the choice I have your back.

Response by CPL Wesley Jackson made Oct 20 at 2016 3:29 PM

2016-10-20T15:29:55-04:00

You have to salute the rank

Response by PFC Daniel Shutts made Oct 20 at 2016 3:34 PM

2016-10-20T15:34:06-04:00

If and I say if the situation is to the point of any senior rank needing to do something like that someone is 8 up. If the officer is smart and is a true leader you will never see such a thing unless your behind the doors where it should take place in private. Even as a SPC I have taken senior nco's and officers to the side later and corrected them. Only once have I ever had to cuss yell and put down a SGT in front of other NCO'S and officers and that was due partially her big mouth and safety violations on a obstacles course when I was attempting to save another NCO from falling. After taking the assignment chewing I explained to my plt Sgt what happened then he delt with her. We respect the rank not the person until that person puts them self or others at risk

Response by SFC Jeremy Johnson made Oct 20 at 2016 4:25 PM

2016-10-20T16:25:21-04:00

The O-1 would have a really short career.

Response by MSgt Russell Normandin made Oct 20 at 2016 4:27 PM

2016-10-20T16:27:47-04:00

True story seen with my own eyes and ears. On a day we were wearing Charlie's a Master Gunns walks by two 2nd Lt's without saluting. One Lt turns around and says hey Master Gunns you didn't salute us. The Master Gunns stops turns around points to his chevron and says see these rockers? Climb over my shoulder and kiss my ass and walks away. I was a PFC and from that day forward I always wanted to be a Master Gunnery Sergeant!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 4:50 PM

2016-10-20T16:50:09-04:00

There was an incident at a unit I was with in Germany. The Brigade CSM was at our company and had removed his headgear as he entered the door. About this time, a 2LT was walking out the door and the CSM gave her the greeting of the day. She stopped and said "you're supposed to salute". He turned around, stepped back outside, and saluted. It seemed to make her day that she had this power. The next day her soul was crushed when the Bde Cdr called and basically told the Co Cdr to bring her junior officer to heel. At the time, and in front of troops, the CSM remained professional even though, having crossed paths inside the doorway with his headgear off,, the 2LT was wrong. He won the Battle in the end though.

Response by SPC Richard Hansen made Oct 20 at 2016 5:00 PM

2016-10-20T17:00:27-04:00

Yes he would. Had our LT call the SGM to the position of attention, while the csm was chewing his ass. Csm complied. The LT wasn't with the platoon or company much longer. He was "repurposed". There's a reason no one walked on his grass! Also had a 1st Sgt tell the captain, in no uncertain terms, that he should unfuck himself before he did it for him. Ah, good times.....

Response by CW3 Larry Northe made Oct 20 at 2016 5:04 PM

2016-10-20T17:04:53-04:00

Yes

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 5:34 PM

2016-10-20T17:34:04-04:00

I can't think of a single occasion where I have been treated anything but fairly and professionally by NCOs or any time ever where I've even considered this "ordering to attention" as an option. If you find yourself having an unprofessional conversation with an NCO you are probably already six months behind in a game you didn't know you were losing.

Response by LTC Francis Irwin made Oct 20 at 2016 5:36 PM

2016-10-20T17:36:32-04:00

I saw this happen once in person. A CSM made a disparaging remark to a 2LT in front of the battalion HQ. The 2LT locked his heels, tore him up one side and down the other. When she was done she went straight to the BN CDR's office, told him what she had done, and said if he had a problem with her correcting the CSM's sexist bullshit she'd be happy to find another job. He didn't.

Response by MAJ Daniel Hammond made Oct 20 at 2016 5:38 PM

2016-10-20T17:38:45-04:00

I never allowed myself to be put in a position where I would need to direct an E-9 to come to attention. Any disagreement I ever had with any E-9, whether CSM or SGM, was handled in a sit-down session, usually in their office. And we always came away with an understanding that left us in each others good graces.
The only time I ever had any such situation arise was with a CW3 when I was a 1LT. He was standing outside with no cover, smoking a cigarette and didn't offer a salute as I approached.
I took him inside to his office and made sure he understood the Army rank structure and the difference between warrant officers and commissioned officers and what the standards of appearance were in our unit.

Response by SGT Bob Taylor made Oct 20 at 2016 5:43 PM

2016-10-20T17:43:45-04:00

Military lives by having rank. It is necessary but that doesn't mean that there are not times to make an impression by doing what is right. One of my fondest memories is of when I was SHORT (1971) in the 82nd Airborne and was pulling CQ as an E-5. After 5 pm all doors were locked except the main door everyone was to use, but due to safety you could get out by using the crash bar. CQ desk was in the hallway by the main door and all visitors were to sign in at that point and monitor all egress to prevent theft. I was notified by someone that someone was trying to get in the locked door at the other end of the barracks. I called back and told him to tell him to come around to the proper door. He called back and told me I had better come tell him because it was the IG, (Colonel). When I approached the door he began cursing me and giving me direct orders to open the door. I refused citing 82nd regs that the doors would only be used in emergencies to escape not to enter. More cursing and direct orders and by this time I had several people behind me including the Sgt. of the Guard who came up behind me and was telling me that it was the IG. I told the Sgt. of the Guard that he may let the IG in but would escort him to the desk to sign in. I turned and left and reached the mid point in the hallway when the IG caught up with me followed by the Sgt. of the Guard. He began chewing me out and I must admit that I was slouched when he said, "Don't you stand at attention when an officer talks to you"? I snapped to attention and told him that he was in my barracks now and would come to my desk, sign in, and state his business. I turned and left him there and went to the desk and he followed telling me that he represented the General and did not have to sign in. I told him that the General would sign in if he came in while I was CQ. I told the runner that I was making a tour of the barracks and if the IG stepped one foot past the desk without signing in to call the MP's. When I returned, he was gone.
I filled out the CQ report, about 4 pages, with quotes for everyone. Next morning I gave it all to Top without mentioning the incident and was relieved of my duty. Went up to my room, showered. and broke starch and was lacing my boots when there was a knock on the door. Told Top wanted to see me. Told him I would be down in 5 minutes. Reported to 1st Sgt. and told the CO wanted to see me. Went to his door, knocked, told to enter, approached his desk, saluted. Told to dispense with that and have a seat.
Asked to tell the story again and afterward was told by the CO "...I would never hear anything about this issue again". I didn't.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 5:49 PM

2016-10-20T17:49:33-04:00

Different situation, but since the popcorn is out.... A few years ago (I was still an E8 as I am today) in Kansas. Two officers, one male one female, both O4s, were walking towards me. The male was to the far right (my left) . I saluted and said "Good afternoon Sir." and kept walking. Then from behind me, female voice "Excuse me 1SG?" I turned back around. "Ma'am?". "I'm just curious how you chose him to give the greeting of the day and not me." "Ma'am, based on all available information, he is senior to you." "All available inf...?" "Ma'am he was walking on your right, where the senior ranking person is supposed to be." "Oh...OK, thank you." I salute her, "Have a nice day Ma'am." and continue on my way, so if you hear a Major or new LTC tell this story from his point of view, it is perfectly true. Made my day. I wish I had turned around to see if she took the position to the right after that.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 6:08 PM

2016-10-20T18:08:33-04:00

My grandfather was a retired E7, I am now an O-4. I was told before I left for training not to be a 'like the lts he knew'. I rely on my senior NCOs, they are the reason I have made it this far.

Response by Sgt Chris Banks made Oct 20 at 2016 6:32 PM

2016-10-20T18:32:51-04:00

Out of respect for the officer, he would comply, but would explain to the young officer about TIME IN GRADE RESPECT

Response by SGT Clark Ridgaway made Oct 20 at 2016 6:48 PM

2016-10-20T18:48:15-04:00

As a new E-5, I was on CQ duty. About 05:45 1SGT comes in, followed about 5 minutes later by a newly minted O-1 reporting in for his first duty station. I came to attention, greeted him and was promptly chewed out for not saluting him. Top came out of his office, asked the O-1 to please step in his office with him. Top told me I was relieved and could go. He proceeded to chew this O-1 a new asshole. I was in the off base locker room preparing to leave for home when the O-1 knocked on the door, introduced himself as my new Plt Ldr and apologized for eating me out for not saluting indoors.

Response by MSG Rich Hediger made Oct 20 at 2016 7:12 PM

2016-10-20T19:12:27-04:00

Actually I'm a retired E-8 Infantry and had a few of these experiences personally. They never turned out well for the little shits that didn't know their butter bar was an opportunity to learn the real way of how the military works and not try to love themselves.

Response by Sgt Aaron Hodgdon made Oct 20 at 2016 8:00 PM

2016-10-20T20:00:12-04:00

I had the luxury of getting to know my Battalion MSgt and working with him in country (Iraq) in 2007. As WPNS CO Police Sgt, it was an unspoken rule to familiarize ones self with as many people possible to improve the likelyhood of exemplary job performance. After we returned back to CONUS, he was promoted to MGySgt and even shared a soda with me down the road. One morning well after colors was played, he swung by the office and asked me to join him in the smoke pit. while there, he advised me that it had come to his attention that I would be receiving a personal award for my services in Iraq and wanted to congratulate me on the hard work put into it.

A 2ntLt was approaching and I uttered the traditional warning of "stand by...", to which he replied "no, we're talking, and the butter bar can wait for his salute". Speechless, I stood there with cigarette in hand with jaw dropped. The O-1 approached and opened up with "Marines, I do believe as an Officer I warrant a salute and an appropriate greeting of the day." To which the E-9 before me replied "Sir, this teufel and I are engaged in an important conversation to which you've rudely interrupted just because you've got something shiny on your collar. If you want a salute, you can climb over my chevrons and find one. Good morning, sir."

I know that was far from the right thing to do, but being outranked by both and witnessing the blatant disrespect, I undoubtedly would've received harsher words had I attempted to intercept the choice words.

On the other hand, I had finally seen what happens to an officer that barked at a senior enlisted Marine and I was very silently chuckling inside. It's still no excuse, as I should've said something. But for once, I enjoyed not being the one in a higher-ups crosshairs.

Response by AN Michael Munn made Oct 20 at 2016 8:42 PM

2016-10-20T20:42:01-04:00

Yes he would. He would also educate the O1

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 8:59 PM

2016-10-20T20:59:14-04:00

I wouldn't count on it. Unless it was in front of young soldiers, and even then I doubt it.

Response by SPC Michael Eskew made Oct 20 at 2016 9:21 PM

2016-10-20T21:21:28-04:00

I have personally seen a butter bar get his bell rung for arguing with a CSM, that major reamed him big time.

Response by Aimee Hristofidis made Oct 20 at 2016 9:27 PM

2016-10-20T21:27:03-04:00

As a former junior officer, I would have never presumed to "lock up" an E9. If I had a problem, or if there was a disagreement, a simple conversation would suffice. As it was, I had a ton of respect for my senior NCOs and never presumed I knew better than them since they had the wealth of experience and knowledge I did not. The way I saw it, if you weren't a dirtbag, I gave you the respect your rank and your person deserved. They were the ones training me to be a better leader and officer.

Response by SFC Chris Dyer made Oct 20 at 2016 9:33 PM

2016-10-20T21:33:14-04:00

Court martial

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 9:41 PM

2016-10-20T21:41:07-04:00

The O1 would either get laughed at, or put in his place with a quickness. I don't know a single Master Chief that wouldn't lose his shit on the Ensign. I don't know how other services do things, but we don't play that shit in the Navy...at least not in the 19 years I've been in.

Response by SGT Vernon Brown made Oct 20 at 2016 10:10 PM

2016-10-20T22:10:14-04:00

Yes

Response by SFC James Haltom made Oct 20 at 2016 10:13 PM

2016-10-20T22:13:24-04:00

As a retired lifer, I will say I have seen a few E9s that needed to be dressed down by O1's, O2's & O3s. Funny story, about 39 years ago while in ADA, we had a smart-ass O9 that was coming around with a LTC (another useless position) for a MAIT inspection. I guess because he was with the LTC, he thought his $hit didn't stink. Well he came to out BOC site talking $hit and making lives miserable, he managed to alienate both the enlisted an our older 1Lt. Well he bite the wrong a$$. The Lt invited the SGM for a private conversation. When the returned the SGM looked a little ruffled but his attitude completely change. He treated us all with the respect we deserved being on the miserable hill in Germany. During the inspections deficiencies were discovered, we were given the change to correct for re-inspection. We came out looking good and better at our jobs because things were explained and we were better trained. It turns out that the Lt was an E-7 with about 11 years in service with a couple of tours in Vietnam before he was commissioned. He was fully aware what was NCO business and what was Officers business and did not cross the line and wasn't about to let the SGM cross the line. That scene stuck in my mind and made me a better NCO.

Response by PFC Dan Hubbard made Oct 20 at 2016 10:23 PM

2016-10-20T22:23:03-04:00

Yes but I wouldn't want to be the butter bar that tried it

Response by SSG Sapu Maiava made Oct 20 at 2016 10:28 PM

2016-10-20T22:28:41-04:00

NO, 2lt will be straightened up or get put in place by an e9

Response by LTC Carlos Llarena made Oct 20 at 2016 10:47 PM

2016-10-20T22:47:15-04:00

When I became a Bn Co, I had an officers call. My CSM was there. I pointed to him and said, "Gentlemen, meet my alter ego. He goes where he wants, does what he wants understanding he represents me. He doesn't need your permission or have to report to you. He has my permission. Out of courtesy he may brief you on what he saw but it's not required unless he discovered a breach in rules, regulation or SOP. Any questions"? CSM looked at me with a slight grin as if to say, "All Right!!!"

Response by SMSgt Mike Wood made Oct 20 at 2016 11:26 PM

2016-10-20T23:26:15-04:00

Yes, If the reason was inappropriate, the E-9 would have a "heart to heart" behind closed doors. I've had 01's call out attention when the Brigade Commander enters the room.

Response by SPC Greg Lee made Oct 20 at 2016 11:29 PM

2016-10-20T23:29:14-04:00

In front of troops, sure, but I'm sure things would be handled behind closed doors with superior offcers handling the verbage....

Response by SN Rick Linscott made Oct 21 at 2016 12:53 AM

2016-10-21T00:53:56-04:00

Mamudiya, Iraq Nov '04. Kicking back with the CSM and another SM smoking Cuban cigars in front of the CSM's hooch. They were taking turns thundering at soldiers for various sins and infractions (real and imagined) as they walked by. The porta johns were about 30 meters away and an O-3 energes from one. He casually flops his kevlar on his head,slings his M-4 over one shoulder and his flac over the other and starts to shuffle away. Without a word, the CSM takes a quarter outta his pocket and flips it and the SM calls "tails". The CSM says "You're up Ricky" The SM roars "HEY FUCK STICK!!!Get your goddamned flac on and buckle that chinstrap!!!" Capt. Fuckstick about pissed his shorts and complied immediately and scurried off to his hooch. The SM puffed on his Cuban a couple of times, chuckled and said "Life is good"

Response by SFC Richard Caroll made Oct 21 at 2016 2:19 AM

2016-10-21T02:19:46-04:00

Absolutely, and later on screw with him or her forever.

Response by PV2 Jake Swearengin made Oct 21 at 2016 5:08 AM

2016-10-21T05:08:56-04:00

I know i got out as a PV2... But. I was in S3, was my commanders driver for a time, then was my S3 sgtmaj driver afterwards. I've seen fresh from westpoint butterbars rip into CSMs a few times, to very bad effect for the 2LT. On the same note, saw one tore up 2LT park in one of the "GENERAL OFFICER" spots at the PX and get his head ripped off by my Bde. CSM, guy tried to act like he didn't know what "GENERAL OFFICER" meant... We need more info on the realistic situation. I as a fuzzy corrected my SFC platoon SGT about his ACUs being jacked up, just said "SGT *******, your boot lace is hanging out, just thought you'd like to know." he fixed it, then thanked me for pointing it out to him in a way that didn't bring everyone elses attention to the issue. Tact people, tact.

Response by SSG Charles Holleran made Oct 21 at 2016 5:45 AM

2016-10-21T05:45:09-04:00

I think that the O1 would benefit and learn from the E9 better if he or she would not try to throw their rank around.

Response by 1SG Ken Gillespie made Oct 21 at 2016 6:16 AM

2016-10-21T06:16:03-04:00

I saw this happen at Fort Campbell in 1978. The LT ordered the 326 EN BN CSM to attention after stating that the CSM failed to salute him. The CSM stood at attention for almost 15 minutes while the LT chewed him out. When he was done the CSM held formation for all the enlisted members of the battalion and space each enlisted person 10 feet from each other along the path to the LT's office.
as the LT left the office he had to render over 300 salutes before reaching the parking lot. .
This continued to next day for all three meals along the route to the mess hall from the LT's office.
The CSM was the last person in line for each meal. He then informed the LT that a CSM or any other enlisted person in the BN would not intentionally not render a salute to an officer.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 8:27 AM

2016-10-21T08:27:02-04:00

Yes, but i dont think the O1 will like the out come. I seen a CO yell at a junior officer for not learning or listening to a senior enlisted.

Response by CW2 Timothy Slaght made Oct 21 at 2016 9:08 AM

2016-10-21T09:08:42-04:00

So would people still have the same responses if the 2LT was a direct commission and the troop was an E-6 or higher priority to commissioning?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 9:11 AM

2016-10-21T09:11:43-04:00

Not a chance! A great time for some professional development from E9 to O1.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 9:32 AM

2016-10-21T09:32:04-04:00

Now this one of those outrageous situations but in general It's all about human decency- some sergeants major poke their nose where it doesnt belong and some LTs pump their chest out a little too much. As a prior NCO I stood at attention for all officers because it was the right thing to do and being and E-9 doesnt exempt you from those rules - if we're going to be technical. That Sergeant Major expects a junior NCO to stand at parade rest but it's not OK for a Lieutenant to ask for the respect he is warranted? SAt the end of the day show up with a great attitude, lend your fellow man a little respect, and the position you stand at when you speak becomes a little less important.

Response by CPL Richard R Rawley made Oct 21 at 2016 9:41 AM

2016-10-21T09:41:22-04:00

Yes he would because the officer is a higher rank

Response by SP5 Irene Holiday made Oct 21 at 2016 9:51 AM

2016-10-21T09:51:51-04:00

I've only seen this done once. I was station in Freiburg, Germany 501 FSB A company. Our SGM, extra cool dude, all about training! 1st Lt Said something out the way, he corrected him, Lt became mad, and put him at attention. He looked at him, for a very long time, he did it, than the Lt went off! After that, SGM turned to us, asked us to leave, and it was fireworks from there. That Lt was transfered to another company and everytime he saw SGM he would put his head down.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Oct 21 at 2016 10:09 AM

2016-10-21T10:09:31-04:00

In 35 years I can't recall any LT's 2nd or 1st that went out of their way to talk to a 1SG let alone a SGM/CSM. I do remember a 2LTthat attempted top correct a CSM that was talking to some NCO's and the CSM just have a good day Sir,and walked away shaking his head. Later that day the LT met the BC, problem solved. Hell even before I retired I avoided CSM's/SGM's who in their right mind goes looking for trouble :) . On a side not that maybe some officers can answer, don't they teach you guys/gals to steer clear of grumpy old NONCOMS? There has to be a power point or briefing before you commission. Hell PVT's figure it out in basic :)

Response by CPO John Joffe made Oct 21 at 2016 10:54 AM

2016-10-21T10:54:29-04:00

Technically yes
But the o1 would live to regret
E9 would not donit

Response by AN Mike Goree made Oct 21 at 2016 10:59 AM

2016-10-21T10:59:17-04:00

If any officer more than an 02 were watching.

Response by TSgt Richard Killebrew made Oct 21 at 2016 11:25 AM

2016-10-21T11:25:28-04:00

He'd hate it but he'd do ot

Response by MSgt Tom Redd made Oct 21 at 2016 11:26 AM

2016-10-21T11:26:56-04:00

Yes, a respectable chief still complies with orders.

Response by SGT Mark Greenhaw made Oct 21 at 2016 11:51 AM

2016-10-21T11:51:16-04:00

Yes,but with a good conversation afterward

Response by Maj Darren Stephens made Oct 21 at 2016 12:03 PM

2016-10-21T12:03:34-04:00

Sadly, yes he would have to comply, but in the end, it will kill the O-1...

Response by Cpl Mike OConner made Oct 21 at 2016 12:21 PM

2016-10-21T12:21:00-04:00

Well, this is hardly equitable.

But back in 1981, I was a salty E4, former Recon-Marine, who had spent the last couple of years of my tour skating out in Headquarters company, 7th Marines. I was the NCOIC of the Regimental Armory and had been given a no bullshit warning to get the keys to the armory back to the head-shed Guard Shack no later than 1630, unless I was ordered otherwise by CWO-4 Culbert over at the S4 and my boss.

One day, shortly thereafter, I look at the clock, it's 1615 and I tell my subordinate to get us logged out and let's call the guard and get them down here so he can walk the key home. He says that Special Services still haven't come back with their rifles. So I call down to special services and explain that they've got to get those weapons back down to the armory. I'm informed that the Platoon Leader is going off on the birds... and its going to be a while.

So I call the 4 shop and WO Culbert is out... as is the Major, no one around to OK the time. So i call back down to Ss and inform them that he needs to tell the Lt that if he doesn't get the weapons down to the armory, he'll have a charge sheet sitting on his desk by 1700... and I slam the phone down.

Sure enough, right at 1630, Special Services is doing the best they could in terms of a formation marching down the hill to the armory.

When they get there, Hoover and I are receiving their pieces as fast as humanly possible and I am yelling at them to get those rifles ready and in. A Marine comes to the window and informs me "Corporal we've got a Lt out here" and that I should stop yelling. To which I responded "Good, tell him to get his piece in here."

The next thing I know, there's a pounding on the main hatch and I'm busy as hell os I don't respond. When I finally get the rifles in, I walk out and see what all the pounding is and sure enough it's the Butter-Bar, who is demanding that I get outside and 'lock my body'. "Sir, I'm going to need that .45, I'm under orders to get this armory shut down and your piece is the only thing stopping that from happening.

He continues to demand that I get out there and 'lock my body'. I turn toward Hoover, who's a low time Lance-Corporal and is shitting his pants... . I guess I sorta smiled at the hilarity of the scene, because the Lt went nuclear, jumping around throwing knife hands at the bars... and I said "Lt, you need to calm down or I'm going to have to have the guard lock you up." The Lt. stopped immediately, looked at me like I'd just shot him in the heart... and 'calmly' began to sort of hum or vibrate in rage... slowly telling me to 'get out here'. I said "Lt. I need your piece, once I put in its whole, I'll return your card and you can do what ever you want to me, once I get the keys back to the guard shack."

He slowly pulls his pistol, hands it through the bars, trying to stare me down... I take his piece back to the Hd Qtrs bin, put it away and take the Lts Card back to him. I quietly do a quick security sweep to make sure all the respective bins are locked down and walk back down the quarterdeck looking at the Lt standing there, humming staring daggers through my soul.

When I open the door, the Lt looses it, starts jumping around doing his bet Drill Instructor. So bad is his tirade, the sentry stops, and when I look at him he pulls his rifle from his shoulder to port.

The Lt is steadily demanding that I 'lock my body'. I shook my head toward the sentry and did as loose an attention as I could, without being accused of refusal... listened to him threaten me with everything from being busted to death... and after probably 30 seconds I informed him that I had to get the key to the guard shack and he was welcome to come along, but that I had to go, turned and went.

(Wow, this took longer than I thought it would)

The Lt screamed at me all the way from the Armory, up the hill to the Guard... When I handed the key over to the Duty, I was informed that WO Culbert want to see me ASAP.

The Lt. gets this look of satisifaction on his mug and immediately calms down, returning to some semblance of military bearing... and we walk across the street to the four shop.

When I knocked on Jack Culberts door, the Lt shoves in past me and starts reading WO Culbert the riot act... He just sits there in his chair, as calm as a cucumber; as was his nature... he holds up a finger toward the Lt. and said 'excuse me sir', turns his head toward me... where I am standing with a curious smile in my face... waiting for the show to get started and he says: "Corporal OConner, I'll see you in the morning." The Lt immediately starts to demand I stay, claiming that 'this isn't over...'.

WO Culbert held his attention toward me and firmly says to me, "Leave, take the office with you and close the door."

So as I am backing out, I see the Lt turn to look at me, demanding I stay and I turn my head so as that he wouldn't see the burgeoning smile on my face... and close the door. He continues to yell with no response from the WO, until he hears the outer door close.

THEN... the conversation quieted down. The last thing I heard was "SHUT THE FUCK UP Lt and sit your ass down".

The next morning I had a fatherly/son and matter of fact discussion with Jack. "OConner, You're a good kid...". From there the discussion went real and I was informed that he was rotating back the Rock soon and 'wouldn't be there to protect me' and I should probably find a place to be that wasn't there'. My explanation was that when he gave me the gig, (I was a 27 months Lance Corporal at the time... ) that I promised him that of all his problems, the armory wouldn't be one of them... and that he'd ordered me directly to get that key back, time certain, no excuses. He agreed, but continued to coach me on 'appropriate responses' and that Lts were his problem, not mine, 'situational awareness' and the like.

WOW! I haven't thought of that in a million years... thanks for lettin' me get that out.

Best regards,
Mike O'Conner
Corporal
USMC - 'tired.

Response by SSG Chris Morrison made Oct 21 at 2016 12:28 PM

2016-10-21T12:28:44-04:00

A story, many of which exist, about CSM Burns. After a spur ride SGM burns at the time was enjoying a beer minding his own business. A LT who had enjoyed a few drinks and proudly wearing his newly earned spurs walked over to the SGM and asked "where are your spurs SGM?" Burns showed him his 2 ACR desert storm combat patch and said "these are my fucking spurs right here." Then signaled for LTC at the time McMasters to come over. Then legend has it Willie B still has that LTs nuts in a cup on his desk.

The nuts in a cup thing is an inside joke if you know CSM Burns.

Response by Sgt Robert Jolley made Oct 21 at 2016 1:05 PM

2016-10-21T13:05:32-04:00

Contrary to popular opinion in the Army, a Lieutenant out ranks a CSM. That CSM has great power due to time in service and senior officers that he knows personally. However, a CSM is required to follow lawful orders of those appointed over him. The good ones (i.e., those that understand this fundamental military relationship) will comply and provide counseling in private afterwards.

Response by Cpl Mark Lovell made Oct 21 at 2016 1:18 PM

2016-10-21T13:18:43-04:00

If a fresh 2Lt got up in a Seargent Major or Master Gunnery Seargent's face I as a Corporal would have taken cover!!

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 1:22 PM

2016-10-21T13:22:43-04:00

Yes the E-9 should comply with the order to show respect for the rank.....then immedately knife hand the LT to death behind closed doors lol

Response by SPC Jacqueline Terrell made Oct 21 at 2016 1:37 PM

2016-10-21T13:37:44-04:00

I wouldn't but by military rules an enlisted must salute an officer. I doubt any would go to attention though

Response by SPC Rick LaBonte made Oct 21 at 2016 2:53 PM

2016-10-21T14:53:52-04:00

First off an E9 is usually the NCO directly attached to an O5 or higher, better get two buckets of popcorn, butter bar won't have an ass left!

Response by CWO4 Tim Hecht made Oct 21 at 2016 2:55 PM

2016-10-21T14:55:46-04:00

Although I was wrong and showed extreme disrespect to a prior enlisted O-2 as an E6 I had a "confrontation" with the Ship's Engineer Officer. We were underway and the EO came storming into my office, yelling at me about something I told his Supply Petty Officer. (I was the senior Storekeeper onboard; the other, an E4, was assigned to the Engineering Department). I turned to the ship's clerk, suggested he get a cup of coffee, and after he left, closed the door and locked it.

Tact and diplomacy are not family traits - perfect for when I made CWO, but they were quite useful in this situation. I figured if the LTjg was rude enough to scream, yell, and cuss at me I would give him back, in kind which I did. After a few minutes there was a knock on the door; opening it there stood the XO who said: "Can you hold the noise down a little? We're having a board in the wardroom." The LTjg stormed out, in a huff, in my opinion he lost the argument with me.

Later that day I went to the XO's Stateroom, explained what happened, apologized for my part in it; and all I got was a thank you from the XO. The next day, at quarters (all hands formation for your landlubbers) the EO was called front and center by the XO and made a public apology to me for his childish behavior the previous day...

Bottom line though - I was wrong, was disrespectful, but I held my ground.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 2:57 PM

2016-10-21T14:57:37-04:00

My mentor as an E-5 was the BN CSM, as I was charged as one of the NCO's running the PSD. I remember working outside with some of my guys and he walked passed a 2LT without saluting him. His mind was on other things and he just didn't take notice. This the only time I have ever seen him not salute and officer regardless to rank. Anyways this LT just starts losing his shit, yelling at him , I insulting him and then he just tells him to drop. My CSM just smiled and got down and started knocking them out. When the LT told him to recover he made some snide comment about respecting higher ranks. Then my CSM walked back into the BN smiling. About ten minutes later the BC comes sprinting out looks at me asks where he is and I just point. That's the first and only time I have seen an LG get smoked, the only time I've seen an Infantry Offcer cry about anything other than losing a guy, and needless to say he didn't enjoy his life from that point on.

Response by SSgt Timothy Lange made Oct 21 at 2016 3:24 PM

2016-10-21T15:24:41-04:00

Doesn't fit the question exactly, but...

We had a 2ndLT at my Aircraft Maintenance unit. He was probably the 5th LT since I had been there. He was a Academe grad, and loved walking into the door way of our office, wait for everyone to go to attention and then just leave. Or, if he actually needed something, he'd come to the doorway, wait for everyone to go to attention (just about 6 of us working in there) and then to talk to the person he needed to talk to with out telling us we could sit back down. So, he was kind of a dick.

One day, Myself (as an E5) and my boss were talking to our Squadron Commander, an O-5, who's back was to the door. The LT walks in and stands in the doorway like usual. My boss and I looked up at him, and then looked back to the Commander, because he was talking to us. So the LT clears his throat...

The commander slowly turned around in his chair and said, "Yes?" The LT's face was priceless. He was stuttering and spittin. The Commander talked shit to him for about 3 minutes and then asked him, "Do you actually do anything around here?" The LT was just like, 'Uhh, yessir.' and left. It made my month.

Response by CW3 Kevin Franks made Oct 21 at 2016 3:34 PM

2016-10-21T15:34:28-04:00

As a prior enlisted to Warrant Officer, it was my pleasure to witness too many of these events. Army Aviation is very officer heavy with the bulk being Warrant Officers. WO1's are very similar to 2LT's in the lack of experience department, however, they do have the benefit of the rest of the Warrant Officer Corps looking out for them so as not to make that same idiotic mistake (pissing off an E-9). That is unless we would set them up for it (did I mention CWO's can be deviously clever when they aren't drinking coffee?). The same can apply to a O1 trying to correct a CW3/CW4 in some random situation "based on his experience" which typically consisted of his college ROTC and flight school. My way to handle those was to say "thank you, sir, but, respectfully, you really have no fucking clue what you are talking about".

Response by MSG Johnathan Mathes made Oct 21 at 2016 3:45 PM

2016-10-21T15:45:46-04:00

Gentlemen....
1st thing to remember is professionalism...... 1sgs MSGs Sfc ... and all other NCOS.... LTs are a direct reflection of what they are taught... yes they are a leader... but they are learning alot on the fly... sit them down and brief them and debrief them ... behind closed doors... coach mentor teach.. yes you will run into hard headed people... you have a commander at other levels to handle those guys..be a professional...id have taken the ass chewing.. and politely asked them to step into my office... afterwards.. and have invited the commander to attend...lts are stressed out creatures.. most have so many additional duties... and not enough hours in the day... you treat them like they are human... a little dignity and respect goes a long ways

Response by CSM Mike Keuten made Oct 21 at 2016 3:59 PM

2016-10-21T15:59:08-04:00

Had this happen to me. I was the Bn CSM, one of the units had a platoon going on an FTX, I went to the platoon formation and started to inspect the soldiers. The PLT LDR came out of the building and yelled who is in my formation get out now. I turned faced the LT smiled and saluted and walked away. The LT had to talk to the Bn CDR and Bn XO with his Unit CDR. He did not look happy walking out of the office. I had a talk to the Plt Sgt and 1SG.

Response by Cpl Ron Watson made Oct 21 at 2016 4:20 PM

2016-10-21T16:20:13-04:00

Once witnessed a young 2LT at TBS in Quantici, call the MGYSGT that I was walking with to attention, due to an "improper" salute.....what this 2LT was not aware of, is that this E-9 was a multiple Purple Heart receipant from Vietnam. He complied, but not before he , the E-9 dismissed me. I stood back, out of my AO, and watched an education bring taught....there was much respect from that 2LT, following the discussion.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 5:02 PM

2016-10-21T17:02:30-04:00

Yes, then he we discuss any grievances with O-6 to O-8 he works for. The L T will learn the a new understanding of respecting the enlisted branch

Response by SSG Greg Murray made Oct 21 at 2016 5:19 PM

2016-10-21T17:19:02-04:00

Technically an E-9 would come to attention, but in reality another officer would snap that butter bar to attention.

Response by SR John Futchko made Oct 21 at 2016 5:19 PM

2016-10-21T17:19:57-04:00

Had something similar happen while I was in Great Lakes. I was in my bunk on medical with a badly messed up knee and under orders from my CPO to not put weight on it. One of the recruits saw the LT come in and called for attention officer on deck. Because of my knee I couldn't move as fast as the others and needed crutches to stand. Naturally the LT notices me not on my feet yet and starts to chew me out. Chief walks up and tells me to stay at ease until I got my crutches squared away then to stand. LT did not like that order and told my chief to belay the order and immediately orders me to my feet. So with out crutches in hand I attempt to stand on my good leg, while the LT is waiting for a proper attention. LT asks why am I not at proper attention, I tell him I am unable to bear weight on my bad leg and show him my paperwork from the hospital. He looks it over and looks at my leg, tells me to grab my crutches. The whole time this is going on Chief looks like he's about ready to explode. I didn't get to witness the conversation later between the LT and Chief, but I can imagine it did not go well at all.

Response by SP6 Jeffrey Coins made Oct 21 at 2016 5:39 PM

2016-10-21T17:39:54-04:00

Yes that 9 should come to the position of attention when an lieutenant who is an officer commissioned by the president of the United States

Response by SP6 Jeffrey Coins made Oct 21 at 2016 5:40 PM

2016-10-21T17:40:03-04:00

But on the other hand yes that Lieutenant's life will be a living hell to the day he gets it out of or he resigns

Response by PO3 Steven Cummings made Oct 21 at 2016 6:22 PM

2016-10-21T18:22:03-04:00

I believe that the call to attention should be obeyed but I also believe that the O-1 should as respect the years of service of the E-9. The E-9 I believe should request to continue the conversation in private with the O-1 and respectfully be reminded of that fact as well in case he has forgotten. In that manner there is no disrespect between ranks in the eyes of those who may be witnessing the interaction.

Response by PO1 David Yochim made Oct 21 at 2016 6:26 PM

2016-10-21T18:26:58-04:00

Technically, maybe. Real world, he'll no.

Response by LTC Pete Munster made Oct 21 at 2016 7:22 PM

2016-10-21T19:22:31-04:00

I served with, and was mentored by numerous CSMs and SGMs (E-9s) all throughout my career. Whether as a lowly "butter bar" (O-1/2LT) until 24 years later retiring as a LTC (O-5). Only an idiot would create an incident, regardless of today or in the "old days"... I was "Blessed" to have NCOs that, regardless of the situation, or circumstances, would "train and mentor" me in making tough decisions... fairly, and "on time". In America, THE NCO Corps is STILL the backbone of ALL THE Services. I wouldn't trade any of mine, or the ones I know, for anything...

Response by SGT Anthony Villafana made Oct 21 at 2016 7:35 PM

2016-10-21T19:35:34-04:00

Two words "fuck no"

Response by CPL K Wu made Oct 21 at 2016 7:40 PM

2016-10-21T19:40:13-04:00

The one time I saw a 2LT call a CSM to attention, a Full Bird came out of nowhere and ripped that 2LT a new one.

Response by CPT Jack Petzko made Oct 21 at 2016 8:50 PM

2016-10-21T20:50:57-04:00

Any O1 stupid enough to lock the herls of an E9 doesn’t deserve to be an officer

Response by PO1 Rexford Dundon made Oct 21 at 2016 9:26 PM

2016-10-21T21:26:32-04:00

I know this is just a movie scene.. but just imagine something like this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q-hLyUZS9E

We Were Soldiers Deleted Scene - Soldier Stories (2002) - Mel Gibson War Movie HD

Subscribe to TRAILERS: http://bit.ly/sxaw6h Subscribe to COMING SOON: http://bit.ly/H2vZUn Subscribe to EXTRAS: http://bit.ly/1u431fr Like us on FACEBOOK: ht...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 9:53 PM

2016-10-21T21:53:38-04:00

When I was a private stationed in HHC 44th Engineer Company, Camp Howze Korea, I was in the hallway of the Company area one day when a 2LT was performing sensitive items inventory with a soldier that was placed there to physically assist him. The soldiers Squad Leader walked in and asked how everything was going and how much time it would take before they completed the task. The 2LT said, " He'll be done when where're done Sergeant"! The sergeant said, "Sir, I was just asking when he would be done"! Long story short this escalated into an argument. The First Sergeant walked up with a smile on his face after hearing the exchange between the two and told the Sergeant to go back to his prior place of duty and he would handle the situation. Before the First Sergeant could say anything the 2LT in front of everyone said, "First Sergeant your jacked up for allowing an enlisted to question me" in addition the 2LT said that First Sergeant shouldn't question him when he's conducting business. This 2LT was known around the unit for being very aggressive and cocky. The First Sergeant calmly informed all the soldiers including myself to leave the company area. We where standing outside the building, but you could still hear what was said. The First Sergeant exploded and said "I'm the Goddam First Sergeant of this Company Lieutenant, if I want to come in and question any soldiers status that's what the fuck I'm going to do, including you". Now get the fuck out of my office, because you look like a jackass chewing barbed wire"!!! A few seconds later the First Sergeant walked off and we all walked back in. The 2LT said, what did I say wrong? and a private responded and said, "Sir, you did get smart with him with your comments". The 2LT had a shell shocked look on his face and surprisingly, the cockiness left him that day, lol!

Response by Sgt William Burton made Oct 21 at 2016 10:05 PM

2016-10-21T22:05:55-04:00

The E-9 would because the O-1 is an officer. I'm sure a discussion would follow, but yes, the E-9 would comply.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 11:19 PM

2016-10-21T23:19:37-04:00

Yeah, they warn us against that at OBC, or BOLC or what ever latest TRADOC Acronym they have come with. As our Team CPT put. You might outrank that E-9, but I promise you he works for someone that massively outranks you. Most E-9s I knew, would not have violated any kind of UCMJ in any overt sense, but I know that their BDE S-3, BN CDR, BDE CDR or who ever their officer counterpart is would know about it in a hurry, and then there would be a world of hurt on that young LT. I watched an LT who was to be my replacement as I as moving out of my PL slot try to hem up the 3rd ARC CSM for not saluting her, but it was a very stupid thing to do for several reasons. 1) We were on FOB Marez in 2007, Saluting was kind of low on everyone's priority. 2) he had his back partially turned to us. 3) he was clearly engaged in some type of professional development with 3 1SGs and a MSG. We walked past, almost into the DFAC, when she turned. I tried to stop her, but it was too late. She asked why the CSM hadn't called the group to attention to salute, so he did. When we got back to the CO CP, the BDE CDR was waiting. I was not going to take that HEAT round, and found I had pressing business with the CO XO in his office. They had to find another replacement for me.

Response by MAJ Anthony Maravola made Oct 21 at 2016 11:22 PM

2016-10-21T23:22:12-04:00

Way back when I was a 2LT (1969, Ft Bragg, Airborne), I watched the Bn CSM just completely ream out a PFC for failing to salute the Co CDR. "Good," I thought. We need discipline . Not one minute later, the same CSM walked past me, looked me in the eye and didn't salute. Yes. I locked his heels. And There were no trips to the Bn CDR or any such nonsense. I had his respect from that day forward. No matter what you might think of 2LTs, they are officers and SGMs and CSMs are enlisted and there is protocol. Throughout my career, I always relied on my NCOs and I always had their back. I would never have tolerated any of them disrespecting even a 2LT.

Response by PFC Adrian Hazard made Oct 21 at 2016 11:27 PM

2016-10-21T23:27:48-04:00

Hahahaha, this brings back memories...DRB Qualification March, brand new butterbar shows up with a fully loaded mountain ruck. SoB must have weighed 100 lbs. Platoon Sgt. calls the LT to the side and tries to explain that the ruck only has to weigh 20 lbs (every single enlisted man has EXACTLY 20 lbs. in their ruck) for qualification. LT basically tells the Platoon Sgt. to fuck off and mind his own business.

By the end of the march, LTs ruck "might" have weighed 20 lbs., but our rucks were definitely over. LT never questioned the Platoon Sgt. again.

Response by PFC Justin Bracewell made Oct 21 at 2016 11:28 PM

2016-10-21T23:28:26-04:00

Yes. Article 15

Response by Sgt John Mazza made Oct 21 at 2016 11:54 PM

2016-10-21T23:54:33-04:00

My personal opinion is that we should get rid of that potential conflict by combining the top 3 enlisted ranks with the bottom 2 officer ranks. Promotion from E6 should be an O1, and make the academies a shortcut.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 12:39 AM

2016-10-22T00:39:40-04:00

Is this a serious question? Good grief.

Response by SrA Kyle Hargrett made Oct 22 at 2016 2:02 AM

2016-10-22T02:02:59-04:00

I wish anyone less than an LTC woulda called my first Chief out #S/OChief...he would have honored it in the moment and then set everything straight

Response by Sgt Gyaltsen Lobsang made Oct 22 at 2016 2:17 AM

2016-10-22T02:17:09-04:00

lol I have seen something similar
It was a cmsgt and a new LT Oh man it was fun

Response by PO1 Robert George made Oct 22 at 2016 3:52 AM

2016-10-22T03:52:30-04:00

back in the day, i'm a BM1 rig captain on an LKA putting mike6's and mike8's in the water in choppy seas with a freshly minted butter bar as safety officer. I've got a 10 ton mike 8 swinging over my head and he starts giving orders to my crew getting em all jacked up. I tell the ensign his job is safety officer not rig captain and unless he sees something unsafe he needs to be quiet. went thru this several times before I finally told him to STFU and get off my station and not come back til he learned something. got a "i'm an officer, you can't talk to me like that". Told him " I will promise you an ass-chewin from the old man every day for the next two weeks if you don't leave". he don't leave and by this time CO goin nuts and BMC on station wantin to know what's goin on. BMC ends up dragging the ENS away and I finish getting boats in the water without getting my crew hurt. 2 weeks later ENS comes up to me and says 'OK Boats, you made your point. What do I need to do?" so I laid it out for him. Turned into one of the best damn DivO's I ever had. Sometimes they just don't know what they don't know!

Response by PO2 Rick Jones made Oct 22 at 2016 4:57 AM

2016-10-22T04:57:32-04:00

Yrs

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Oct 22 at 2016 5:22 AM

2016-10-22T05:22:06-04:00

The CSM would comply. that is protocol. I am sure that LT would never again make that mistake. I never seen it happen. But I know as a 1SG, I would come to attention but shortly afterward, the demons of hell would be loose in the closed door office of the commander

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 6:12 AM

2016-10-22T06:12:44-04:00

My Dad was Navy. He regaled me once with a tale of a Lieutenant J.G who took it upon himself to dress down a Senior Chief for some percoeved infraction. Infront of junior enlisted like my Dad no less. In the midst of this, the XO who had known and served alongside said chief since antiquity likely predating the LTJG's conception. The XO leaned against a bulkhead and watched silently while the young officer continued his tirade, the Chief dutifully at attention. When the younger officer finished, still oblivious to the Commander's presence in the room, the XO spoke up finally, not to the LTJG, but to the Senior, their exchange somewhere along the lines of, "Hey Frank." "Hey Bill." The XO then told the LTJG to step out with him, not wanting to repeat the impropriety the younger officer had just committed by berating a subordinate in front of lower enlisted men. But when the Liuentenant sullenly shuffled across the flight deck to the next supply helicopter, kicked off the ship and bound for parts unknown (it was presumed Antartica), no one wondered why. The Senior Chief never lost his cool because he never had to. He didn't need the respect of the LTJG because he had the respect of someone who actually mattered.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 6:47 AM

2016-10-22T06:47:03-04:00

A good E-9 would comply but take it offline to resolve because someone who has reached E-9 has done it using common sense, finesse and great leadership. For that matter, I am eternally grateful to the SNCO who saw potential in me and became an advocate to refining my leadership instead of a adversarial hindrance. His years of experience became a stepping stone to who I am as a Lt Col and I will forever be grateful to his gruff, honest assessments. I am also grateful to the NCOs that became team players even when I stumbled because they knew I still had their backs. I have worked with some amazing NCOs.

Response by CPO John Hopkins made Oct 22 at 2016 7:19 AM

2016-10-22T07:19:05-04:00

I remember an old Chief of mine, who looked at the young Ensign and said to him "You know Ensign, and I'm going to call you Ensign, when I was a boy....about your age...I was taught to respect my elders..so I'm going to call you Ensign, and you can call me Sir!"

As for my own interactions, well I played rugby for some military sides and for a well known local civilian club, and I remember coming off the pitch after a match with my Division Officer/LT saying to me "Good match Chief, please remind me to never, ever piss you off!"

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 7:59 AM

2016-10-22T07:59:50-04:00

Officers are considered higher ranking than enlisted. No matter the officers rank.

Response by John Nunez made Oct 22 at 2016 8:19 AM

2016-10-22T08:19:44-04:00

Short answer Yes. But the Lt./ENS has a lesson to learn when he does. Its not going to be pretty.

Response by PO1 Digger Brooks made Oct 22 at 2016 8:38 AM

2016-10-22T08:38:16-04:00

Whats the "boy" gonna do? Cant do a damn thing to the E9.

Response by SGT Ricky Ricardo made Oct 22 at 2016 8:44 AM

2016-10-22T08:44:43-04:00

Yes

Response by SGT Clinton Gardner made Oct 22 at 2016 9:27 AM

2016-10-22T09:27:52-04:00

Sure just because he is an officer. But I'm sure most 01 would have enough respect for E9 to not

Response by 1SG James Johns made Oct 22 at 2016 10:31 AM

2016-10-22T10:31:25-04:00

Diamonds are trump 1SG, and there are only 2 soldiers in the Army that wear stars..Generals and Sergeant Majors.

Response by CDR Robert O'Byrne made Oct 22 at 2016 10:44 AM

2016-10-22T10:44:27-04:00

I retired as a Navy O5. Some of the best leadership lessons I learned were as an O1-O3 from a CPO and/or USMC Gunny or above. These lessons were always delivered with "intense" respect that always impressed me as them being deeply interested in me being a better leader. I thought of them as my "Disney" moments. You know ... when you go to Disney you want to see Mickey. When in the military you haven't had the full experience until the Chief/Gunney has yelled in your presence ... and you are the only other person in the room.

Response by TSgt Johnnie Keller made Oct 22 at 2016 11:02 AM

2016-10-22T11:02:50-04:00

We had a weak platoon leader bring our Div CSM into our training area and I yelled out "At East!!" The CSM walked up to me, shook my hand and smiled. The 2LT said to me; "for your information SGT, a 2LT out ranks a CSM." I responded with; "well sir, once you are SF, Master Blaster, CIB and silver star owner, I will show you that same respect." He just looked at me with that "deer in the headlight" look and walked off.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 11:11 AM

2016-10-22T11:11:34-04:00

1 MEF Ball 07. I'm in the Band and we had just finished setting up, so I walked outside for a smoke before a 2 hour jazz combo set. Saw a SGTMAJ helping his wife out the car as a 1LT went by. SGTMAJ sees him and acknowledges him. Officer gets huffy and says " SGTMAJ I didn't catch that salute." The SGTMAJ stops, looks at him and says: "Climb up my chevrons and get it. " I laughed and got yelled at by both. Great night .

Response by SSgt Jeremy Martin made Oct 22 at 2016 11:51 AM

2016-10-22T11:51:07-04:00

The best thing I ever witnessed was on my first day at my first duty station. I was a E-2 Airman and didn't know anything. As I was walking up the stairs to report into my SQ, there was a brand new butter bar in front of me. Coming down the stairs was a Chief (E-9), who saluted the 2nd Lt and said "good morning Lt." As they passed the butter bar thought it was his job to stop the Chief and bring him to attention and "fix" his salute. After being dismissed, the Chief put his stuff in his car and went back up the stairs to the SQ. About an hour later, I was sitting next to the same butter bar doing some inprocessing on the computers. A Capt came into the office and asked for the butter bar to come with him, saying " the Commander would like to talk to you." The LT walked into the office and gave a reporting statement, the CC turned and looked at the couch and asked the Chief sitting there if he would like some more coffee. The Chief said no, I am good Sir. The CC asked the Chief to go about his day and he would meet up with him later. The LT was still holding the salute as the Chief walked by and then the CC asked the Chief to close the door behind him. The door and walls were thin enough to hear ever word that was being said to the LT and where he rates in this military. I believe the phrase, "The man you corrected his salute has more time in this military than you have alive."

Response by SGT Bill Harmon made Oct 22 at 2016 12:10 PM

2016-10-22T12:10:18-04:00

Definitely, but the aftermath would be awesome to watch lol

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 12:15 PM

2016-10-22T12:15:13-04:00

technically yes for the E9 is outranked by the young lt - it sucks but that's our military. I disagree with the fact that a 50 year old E9 who has 25 years in the military has to salute and take orders from a 19 or 20 year old 2nd LT who has been in the army 1 year if that. That's our military though. They have no experience, yes one day they will and I feel that the young officers should respect the SR NCOs enough in such a way as to not put them in such a position - it's not right at all.

Response by MAJ Rick Breneman made Oct 22 at 2016 12:23 PM

2016-10-22T12:23:42-04:00

Of course he would. But that butter bar needs to be looking over his shoulder. One of the worst chewings I ever had was by my company First Sergeant when I was the company XO. He did it without raising his voice and with total respect. If young officers don't appreciate the wisdom of senior NCOs, their careers will be woefully short.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 12:32 PM

2016-10-22T12:32:28-04:00

Yes he would have to comply to the direct order from a superior officer.

Response by SFC Tony Billingslea made Oct 22 at 2016 1:27 PM

2016-10-22T13:27:21-04:00

Yes, the Senior NCO would comply, IAW rules & regulations, not to mention NCO professional decorum.
But, the young lieutenant's military career would hit a wall!!

Response by SP5 Tom Carlson made Oct 22 at 2016 1:42 PM

2016-10-22T13:42:31-04:00

I have to agree I would like to be a fly on the wall behind the closed door meeting.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 2:22 PM

2016-10-22T14:22:10-04:00

I've seen this happen personally...the CSM was absolutely professional and complied then later in the day the Battalion Commander fully informed the young Lieutenant on the true food chain of the Army.

Response by PO2 Michael Carson made Oct 22 at 2016 2:27 PM

2016-10-22T14:27:07-04:00

Of course, the E-9 would come to attention.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 2:33 PM

2016-10-22T14:33:55-04:00

I'm sure that once the CSM complied The young pompous LT. watched as his world melt around him while standing at attention in the Brigade Commanders Office. I truly believe that there should be a class for these young officers in OCS or there college ROTC program that teach these kids and yes I mean kids to respect CSM's not only for there knowledge but also for the simple reason that some CSM's have been in so long they remember when Jesus was a private. When these kids get there commission they think they are gods and they can treat soldiers like shit. What they don't realize is it's the soldiers that can make or break there career. In short do not mess with a CSM unless you have a death wish.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 3:01 PM

2016-10-22T15:01:06-04:00

Slap the butter bar right in his face !

Response by SGT Corey Gray made Oct 22 at 2016 3:21 PM

2016-10-22T15:21:10-04:00

In front of the troops, yes. He has to set the example.

But the instant it's no longer in front of junior enlisteds and VERY junior NCOs, poor butter bar's going to get his shinies all corroded by the language he's gonna hear...and if he goes running to the railroad tracks or bird...well, when he's done blushing over being laughed out of the CO's office, he'll have got the point.

Response by SPC Heath Orr made Oct 22 at 2016 3:32 PM

2016-10-22T15:32:10-04:00

Had a 2d LT lock our 1SG up for something stupid.

2d LT spent the next few hours in the commander's office after he caught wind of it. Came out soaked in sweat.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Response by FA Dennis Prow made Oct 22 at 2016 3:37 PM

2016-10-22T15:37:33-04:00

I was a Corpsman (E3). One night working in the Medical Surgical ward, I had a patient began to come, VT. So I yelled to my nurse to call the code and I would rush the crash cart to the Bed Side. Of course LTJG bla Bla got upset and tried to put me in my place also claiming my patient was DNR. I repeatedly told him he was in fact NOT A DNR (do not resuscitate) so I told him to check his nursing notes and meet me at the bedside when he is ready to save his patients life. Needless to say he almost got sent to the record department for not responding correctly. Point being watch each other's backs both enlisted and officer alike. Yes we answer to officers but we have so much to offer as enlisted.

Response by SCPO John-florida Killin made Oct 22 at 2016 3:41 PM

2016-10-22T15:41:07-04:00

That would be career suicide for the O-1, and would be commented on in his fitness report with great prejudice. However, I have always advised newly commissioned and junior officers that they are in charge and ultimately responsible. More than one officer has had his career ruined by not holding senior enlisted, including the E-9s, accountable, and when something goes wrong on your watch because of a drunk, an abusive individual, a dishonest or thieving individual, or a sexual harasser, make no mistake about it, the CO is going to hang you too. Do not be afraid to pull senior enlisted aside and give them clear expectations when you see something going on that you know isn't right. And do not EVER neglect your responsibility to document an individual's shortcomings in a performance evaluation.

Response by PO1 William Jones made Oct 22 at 2016 3:56 PM

2016-10-22T15:56:11-04:00

The O-1 is still an officer, so the E-9 would be compelled to obey his order. One thing I learned in the Navy is that you respect and salute the uniform, not necessarily the person wearing said uniform. Were junior enlisted to see the E-9 disregarding the O-1's order(s), a bad example would be set. Were this not to happen in front of other military members, a different outcome would most likely occur, but the O-1 is still an officer and the E-9 is still enlisted, so respect should still be rendered to the uniform, if nothing else.

Response by SFC Stanley Wood made Oct 22 at 2016 3:57 PM

2016-10-22T15:57:04-04:00

In the late 70's I saw a CPT tell the division CSM to come to attention as the CSM was chewing on his 1SG after having the MP's called to their company Christmas party three times. It didn't end well for the CPT.

Response by Sgt Jason Beach made Oct 22 at 2016 3:59 PM

2016-10-22T15:59:13-04:00

The little butter bars better ready themselves for an ass beating!

Response by PO1 Keith Vasvary made Oct 22 at 2016 4:54 PM

2016-10-22T16:54:12-04:00

Yes, and then rip his ass in private

Response by SGT John Goodwin made Oct 22 at 2016 5:28 PM

2016-10-22T17:28:25-04:00

I had a similar thing happen to me but it was a cadet trying to get me to go to attention and salute her while in airborne school and in the training area no less oh and I had already received my wings while she was still waiting to start training don't know if the story warrants further mentioning as this question is in reference to O-1's calling out E-9's.

Response by SFC Charles Magee made Oct 22 at 2016 6:23 PM

2016-10-22T18:23:09-04:00

Yes

Response by SSgt Kent Vickery made Oct 22 at 2016 6:38 PM

2016-10-22T18:38:43-04:00

Yes. 2 Lt. Probably not going to like the ass ripping he's about to experience

Response by COL Dallas Wurst made Oct 22 at 2016 6:43 PM

2016-10-22T18:43:09-04:00

As a professional NCO he should. He knows there will be another meeting in the Commanders office that will have corrective actions.

Response by SGT DePatrick Mitchell made Oct 22 at 2016 7:14 PM

2016-10-22T19:14:29-04:00

It's a lawful order and should be obeyed. You don't have to like it and can report if you feel it is retaliation for a disagreement.

Response by PO3 Paul Sisson made Oct 22 at 2016 7:19 PM

2016-10-22T19:19:52-04:00

I have seen a similiar incident of this.
It was back in about 92 on an ASR. Don't remember if it was a Ensign or a LTJG but he was trying to tell a 28 year MC how to do his job. It didn't go very well as the MC chewed up the poor kid and spit him out.

Response by MSG Frank Burns made Oct 22 at 2016 7:33 PM

2016-10-22T19:33:21-04:00

He would sat that Lt straight

Response by LCpl William Massey made Oct 22 at 2016 7:44 PM

2016-10-22T19:44:01-04:00

I have seen both sides of this. Hash marks don' t always equate wisdom or competency. All junior officers are not idiots. You respect the rank and not the man or woman wearing it. There is a chain of command for a reason. I once saw a First Sargent attempt this with a Second Luitenant and was eaten alive by him. Second Louie was exactly right when he said you may not respect me but you will respect this pointing to his gold bar. There are plenty of examples on the other side. The best senior NCO's avoid this kind of dust up by establishing their worth not through bluster but rather competence.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 8:04 PM

2016-10-22T20:04:18-04:00

A outstanding Chief would comply for the sake of subordinates. However, I do believe that a private conversation will happen very soon afterwards.

Response by PO2 Mark Wallace made Oct 22 at 2016 9:06 PM

2016-10-22T21:06:06-04:00

He would have to respond but I feel sorry for the LT

Response by Duane Weimerskirch made Oct 22 at 2016 9:22 PM

2016-10-22T21:22:51-04:00

it is in the oath we take . I feel it would hold a little more credibility to the position of O-1 on up if the person coming into the officer ranks has at least an E5 befor they are commissioned. I feel there would be less of a breakdown of leadership. too many officers get a power trip because of a butter bar then end up getting people killed for stupid shit.

Response by PFC Terry Shofner made Oct 22 at 2016 9:50 PM

2016-10-22T21:50:09-04:00

In all technicalities yes he must comply. But the following shit storm will be funny to watch.

Response by SgtMaj Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 9:52 PM

2016-10-22T21:52:14-04:00

1) "That" is something that would never happen in the Corps. 2) SgtsMaj don't usually have the opportunity to interact with officers below Major unless it is in passing. 3) Rank is one thing; power is another. An 0-1 (or an O-2 or 0-3 for that matter) doesn't "out power" the SgtMaj.

Response by Cpl Daniel Lee made Oct 22 at 2016 9:53 PM

2016-10-22T21:53:24-04:00

I saw a MGySgt tell a boot Lt. "Climb up my stripes and get it!!" in reference to a salute when i was a young boot... That man was like a god after i saw that happen hahaha

Response by SGM Curtis Young made Oct 22 at 2016 10:08 PM

2016-10-22T22:08:56-04:00

Yes

Response by LT Derek Wood made Oct 22 at 2016 10:34 PM

2016-10-22T22:34:58-04:00

Question should be: "Should an E9 comply if ordered to attention by an O1?" Yes, in public. no question. Maybe not in private (no audience). It boils down to a courtesy correction. I guess it really boils down to: are you truly a professional, or an ass-hat.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2016 11:38 PM

2016-10-22T23:38:05-04:00

It should never come to that.

Response by SGT Scott Moreland made Oct 22 at 2016 11:41 PM

2016-10-22T23:41:46-04:00

Technically, they should as it is a lawful order. The reaction of the E9 depends on the circumstances. In ceremony and day to day military courtesy it is appropriate for the E9 to set the example. If it originated from the O1's ego, there would certainly be a conversation that followed. A good E9 worth his salt would attempt to advise and mentor that young officer but if that officer was not receptive to the seasoned guidance being offered then it would be necessary to involve the CO.

Response by SFC Melvin Frazier made Oct 22 at 2016 11:53 PM

2016-10-22T23:53:13-04:00

Well, you know the drill... If the situation is unethical, no! If the LT is legit, yes.

Response by LTC Denis Sullivan made Oct 23 at 2016 12:00 AM

2016-10-23T00:00:56-04:00

Would he or she HAVE to comply? Technically, yes, or they would be in violation of military regulations. I would imagine there would be an interesting conversation shortly thereafter, however.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 12:10 AM

2016-10-23T00:10:47-04:00

So 2LT tells BN CSM that her bar outranks his stripes and that he can't order an officer to do anything. This happens in the CSM's office. BN XO, ENG, prior INF, hears this. He calls thr 2LT into his office, and through a closed door, we hear him destroy her soul. "How can I give you a command if you don't respect your NCOs?" "He has been in this unit longer than you have been in the Army!" Et cetera, et cetera... when she was dismissed, she ran out crying.

Response by LTC Steve Jordan made Oct 23 at 2016 12:26 AM

2016-10-23T00:26:33-04:00

I was enlisted, made E5 before OCS and retired out as an O5... I have seen some E* and E9 troops that should be locked up and read the riot act, but likely not by a 2LT unless it was an issue of serious injury... but some of the comments about Jo are funny... last I remember you take an oath to take orders of those appointed over you... also different mentalities in combat arms and non combat arms units... in a cav squadron I was assigned to before OCS, the CSM would great newly assigned company grade officers... he always addressed them as "sir" but would highlight the need for a haircut, uniform issues, spit shined boots, etc. and tell them to come check with him before they meet the commander as not to have them embarrassed if the old man ate them up on the initial visit... he was squared, hard but did not talk down to the JOs just helped them look squared away... and to realize the "cav standard"...as I was leaving for OCS, called me to ask why I did not want to work to be a CSM one day... then found a LT that had recently graduated OCS to tell me what to expect... then when I was leaving to Benning he called me in and gave me a butter bar, said he was proud of me and to put that bar inside my helmet liner and when times got hard to look at the bar and focus... then told me he did not want to see me again until I was commissioned... bottom line I was more scared of CSM and did not want to let him down vs any of my tactical officers or RI's that I ever met... but as an O3, and as a field grade locked up a few SGM/CSM who truly needed it; normally out of site of troops, as well as a few WO's that needed it... same with troops, but again normally not in front of others unless absolutely necessary.. as a commander 4 times my senior NCOs new that I had their backs when it came to supporting UCMJ issues... that way troops didn't come before me for silly shit, that is easily handled by the NCO Corps, as troops knew it would be hammer time... and the NCO leadership could truly run the unit as needed... I truly believe all Officers should do two years enlisted time until they pin on their O1... when your enlisted you are trained in your specific MOS and JO's receive a little about their specific branch, but also have some training in personnel, logistics, operations, communications, etc.... just enough for orientation and the idea you will learn more specifics depending whatever job you are assigned... thus some JOs come across as book smart but no military knowledge... lastly, had a friend that was an E7 (P), and took a direct commission to 2LT... was an SF stud, Vietnam vet...Silver Star, 6 Purple Heats, master blaster, Ranger, bla bla... anyway hilarious to see him in dress blues with all his warrior awards and medals walking @ field grade officers that looked naked in comparison to this "butter bar"... he was the oldest 2LT, 1LT, CPT, and MAJ on AD... was a great Soldier's Soldier at all grades he held...

Response by SPC Adam Reier made Oct 23 at 2016 1:15 AM

2016-10-23T01:15:02-04:00

During the time I was in I saw several E9s and there were only a very few that could and would tell him or her what to do and I'm sorry to say it an OK was not one of them.

Response by SGT William Boggs made Oct 23 at 2016 3:21 AM

2016-10-23T03:21:27-04:00

The soldier would comply with a law order. End of discussion.

Response by SCPO James Britton made Oct 23 at 2016 3:37 AM

2016-10-23T03:37:26-04:00

01 can call an E9 to attention, not advisable but hey if he has the testicular fortitude to do so better stand by for heavy rolls afterwards

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 4:00 AM

2016-10-23T04:00:18-04:00

I've never seen an O1 so brave lol

Response by PO2 Cedric Johnson made Oct 23 at 2016 6:38 AM

2016-10-23T06:38:14-04:00

Yes

Response by LCpl Eric Mach made Oct 23 at 2016 6:44 AM

2016-10-23T06:44:05-04:00

Yes by the book only respect for the rank

Response by SPC Becky Ann made Oct 23 at 2016 7:51 AM

2016-10-23T07:51:46-04:00

No way in hell a butter bae would dare call a CSM to attention. They wouldn't have the balls.

Response by Mary Brown Fry made Oct 23 at 2016 9:17 AM

2016-10-23T09:17:51-04:00

My father retired 30yrs Sgt Major USMC. In my late 20's I attended an event with my parents. Walking up to the building, I was beside my mother, not paying attention, my dad was coming around to walk curb side. The Generals car was approaching ... my dad almost knocked me down, telling me to get out of the way. He stopped and saluted the passing General. RESPECT.... for my dad.

Response by CMSgt Rick Hoover made Oct 23 at 2016 9:30 AM

2016-10-23T09:30:06-04:00

I'd have come to attention right in his face and he'd have squirmed like the worm he is. I spent my last 10 years training officers and it's not hard to put them in their place without being insubordinate.

Response by Sgt David Andrzejewski made Oct 23 at 2016 10:31 AM

2016-10-23T10:31:23-04:00

One of the best moments in my enlistment...
2nd LT walks by a MSgt and CWO3 talking. Neither salute
Lt: So neither of you have the intention of saluting an officer today?
MSgt: Sir, you can have our salute when you climb up our rockers to get it.
Lt walks away speechless.

Response by SP5 Jimmy Maravola made Oct 23 at 2016 10:37 AM

2016-10-23T10:37:53-04:00

Most definately......a 2lt is a commissioned officer and an sgt/major is an enlisted man. .....protocol and regulations dictate saluting and respect of sn officer.....

Response by 1SG Dr. Dennis Zerull made Oct 23 at 2016 10:52 AM

2016-10-23T10:52:33-04:00

Respect for rank is one thing. Disrespect from a man child is quite another. I never stood up for anyone less the field grade in my orderly room BTW...

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 11:41 AM

2016-10-23T11:41:20-04:00

I would because no one is more professional than I. But as a Leader there are professional ways to fix this misguided LT. Narrow is the path and few our on it.

Response by COL Clarence Wells made Oct 23 at 2016 11:43 AM

2016-10-23T11:43:43-04:00

Yes

Response by SPC Thomas Carroll made Oct 23 at 2016 11:46 AM

2016-10-23T11:46:12-04:00

Yes Lt out ranks a E9

Response by MSgt Orvie Mattson made Oct 23 at 2016 12:09 PM

2016-10-23T12:09:46-04:00

Tough call. Most E-9's answer directly to the commander and most butter bars would know better but the rank stucture is the rank structure. ..

Response by SFC Michael Streeter made Oct 23 at 2016 1:07 PM

2016-10-23T13:07:41-04:00

I think the word "attention" can be used in a fashion to where it feels like you're in control of a situation. No matter what your grade is or how many days you have left in the service, disrespect is disrespect. What goes for a private should go for an SGM/CSM

Response by MSgt Charles Baca made Oct 23 at 2016 2:05 PM

2016-10-23T14:05:16-04:00

Under the uniform code of military justice, the short answer is yes. However, those of us who know how things are really done and where respect is really earned.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 3:18 PM

2016-10-23T15:18:40-04:00

Even if the CSM is wrong, there's a tactful and professional way to handle that, then, there's this way. Just like there's a difference between saying "hey CSM, just wanted to let you know your boot's unbloused" and saying "hey, guy, fix yourself."

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 3:22 PM

2016-10-23T15:22:00-04:00

Having been a CSM at the BDE level this would never happen but if it did I would comply.. I promise you it would never happen unless the E9 was a shit bag. That LT would be almost murdered by the COL or LTC..

There is a rank structure but when you have a CSM most officers respect that and know the boundaries and I as a CSM would never put myself in a position to cross that.

Response by SPC Johnathan Jarrett made Oct 23 at 2016 4:29 PM

2016-10-23T16:29:11-04:00

Stationed in Alaska from '94-'97 as part of 4/9, 6th ID. I was working in the "S" shop for a while. One day, our CSM was trying to explain something, I honestly don't know what as up to this point it was a quiet conversation. The butterbar started screaming at the CSM that he had better get to the position of attention if he was going to speak to an officer. At this point, the entire building stopped breathing, and waited to see what our CSM was going to do. He snapped to attention, begged pardon from the butterbar, and just stood there looking at the wall behind this kid. When the O1 was done with his tirade, he had this smirk on his face and went about his business. Meanwhile, our CSM marched up to the Battalion Commanders office, and shut the door. 2 minutes later, we hear "He F***ing did what!?!?!? Get Lt. Cantrememberhisname in my office NOW!"

When the O1 entered his office, we all heard "Get into the position of attention! Sargent Major, please close the door." Thunk went the door. However, for the next 2ish plus hours, we heard yelling, and what I would have sworn was a first rate smoking session. As far as I know, that O1 never ever tried to do something like that again...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 4:37 PM

2016-10-23T16:37:52-04:00

So back when I was a PVT, we had a new O1 arrive 30 minutes late to the BN. No one paid her any mind, as she was just a butter bar and all the BN/CO officers had arrived for the day.
So she flips out on the junior troops hanging around the staff duty desk. "Who's in charge here? Why didn't anyone call the bldg to attention when I walked in? I'm an officer!"
The outgoing staff duty runner, E4, acknowledged that he had just got off duty at work call, so she dropped him and started to berate him loudly for not calling her "ma'am" or standing at attention.
We all did a quick vanishing act, listening around the corners, and someone ran for the guy's NCO.
So SGT comes down to ask her, "What's going on here?"
She orders SGT to attention and goes off on him. He tells his troop to get out of there, troop doesn't need asking twice.
The commotion draws BN CSM'a attention. "What's going on here?"
This little short female LT faces off to our CSM (whose personal motto was "Strike Fear") and informs him that HIS BN is ate-up and lacking discipline and oh btw HE should stand at attention and call her "ma'am", because "technically, I outrank you!"
I've never seen CSM turn so red in my life... then he took a deliberate deep breathe and his face went back to normal, and he said, calmly, "Technically, you are correct, ma'am. But why don't we take this conversation to the BC's office just down the hall?"
BC was retiring. Gentle teddy bear of a man, anyone could walk in and ask, "So how 'bout them Yankees?" And be invited in eagerly, "Come in, come in, how's everything going?" Never saw him get mad before.

We. Could. Hear. Him. From. The. End. Of. The. Bldg!
Which is how I know that LT was BORN the year CSM enlisted!! LMAO!

Response by PO3 Noah Dawicki made Oct 23 at 2016 4:42 PM

2016-10-23T16:42:05-04:00

E9 has earned their position with a LOT of time put in. A lt is what 3-5 years? Come on
Seniority rules. That's so disrespectful. Wouldn't have flown on my ship I'll tell ya that.

Response by PO3 Rich Brozowski made Oct 23 at 2016 4:43 PM

2016-10-23T16:43:22-04:00

Had the a almost same experience as an E-3. On quarterdeck watch on Enterprise the Stennis was pier side. We carried 12 gauges for watch. The Stennis carried 9 mil. Our captains orders were not to salute anybody on watch just come to attention. Well... had a O-1 from the Stennis come across the brow. Popped to attention and said good morning sir. Which he replied shipmate where is my salute? I said Sir i do not salute when carrying this weapon per my co's orders...Sat there for a good 5 minutes demanding his salute. Never gave him one. Well the gunnery division warrant 4, 32 years in the navy btw...came by and heard what was going on an dragged that O-1 through the quarterdeck to the hangar bay and went up one side and down the other on this kid. I couldn't help it was laughing my ass off... The CO came aboard saw me smirking and heard the warrant screaming in the hangar bay... I told him what happened and the CO joined the warrant and about 5 minutes later that O-1 hauled ass across the brow no salute nothing. I just popped to attention and said sir....

Response by SPC Jackson Stevens made Oct 23 at 2016 5:02 PM

2016-10-23T17:02:27-04:00

The way it was explained to me.
O1- never heard of god.
O2- has heard rumors that there is a god.
O3 - confirmed sightings of god.
O4 - brief encounters with god.
O5 - regular encounters with god.
O6 & above - communes with god.
E8 & above - god!
A good Senior NCO usually has the ability to take that "problem" out of the "public" location. Any intelligent 0-1 knows that the Senior NCO spends a lot more time (has the ear of) with the O-1's boss's boss's boss!

Response by LTC Wes Rogers made Oct 23 at 2016 5:16 PM

2016-10-23T17:16:25-04:00

Yes he would have to respond! Many (not all) E9's resent officers period. I had enlisted time (SGT) and Commissioned time. Taught HS JROTC. And many E9's in system had problems still working with Officers. Wish I knew why. Hope I just worked with egotistical Non Com's.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 6:23 PM

2016-10-23T18:23:44-04:00

Yeah technically, but this is not an all or nothing scenerio....very much a grey area. One the audacity of the LT would dictate where it goes, and more importantly the patience of the E9.
Remember the E9 has made his career and doesnt need promted, but that LT has stiff road to Maj and beyond. The politics of him getting there with behaivor like that could mean a very rough, difficult road with no future

Response by SSG Roger Hampton made Oct 23 at 2016 6:39 PM

2016-10-23T18:39:58-04:00

I remember this actually happening in an MI unit I was assigned too in the 90s though I think it was O1 and 1SG. The 1SG was soon after it happened, the Bn staff SGM so it could have been after he made E9. Needless to say this O1 not only had a very rapid meeting with out Bn CDR but she also soon relieved of her duties (was S1 LT) and reassigned (or given the boot who knows).

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 6:57 PM

2016-10-23T18:57:50-04:00

In my experience, they wouldn't destroy the LT in public, but there's usually a follow up meeting with the BN or BDE Commander. A very, very, close and intimate meeting that can be described as "life changing." Rarely would the SGM openly rebuke an officer, only when necessity and common sense required.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 7:09 PM

2016-10-23T19:09:54-04:00

I respect the O's, but I don't know any E7s that would let an O1 do that, let alone an E9.

Response by SSG Michael Robertson made Oct 23 at 2016 7:31 PM

2016-10-23T19:31:16-04:00

If that young Lt had a good OBC instructor, and respected the NCO corps, it would never happen. AS a basic course instructor myself, this almost seems like an unrealistic scenario, but the professional would comply, but that would definitely not be the end of that encounter. Lol

Response by TSgt William Paez made Oct 23 at 2016 7:56 PM

2016-10-23T19:56:45-04:00

Response by SSgt John Rosenthal made Oct 23 at 2016 8:03 PM

2016-10-23T20:03:01-04:00

I was in the US Army and the Air Force from 77-90
I never once saw an E-9 be disrespectful to any officer. Maybe because they know that every enlisted soldier and airmen that sees them looks to them for guidance. And they know they set the example for all to see!!!!

Response by SP5 Ford Ross made Oct 23 at 2016 8:06 PM

2016-10-23T20:06:56-04:00

Yes. The subject is closed! HUA!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 8:42 PM

2016-10-23T20:42:21-04:00

If he is a classy disciplined POG yes, call a e9 to attending as a grunt, he will laugh seen it done

Response by PO1 Joseph Hale made Oct 23 at 2016 8:51 PM

2016-10-23T20:51:52-04:00

Yes but the jg had better be ready for the result unless he is a mustang then it wouldn't happen it would be done in a nonpublic manner

Response by SGT Michael Brooks made Oct 23 at 2016 9:30 PM

2016-10-23T21:30:01-04:00

The E9 would comply

Response by SGT Dan Miller made Oct 23 at 2016 9:37 PM

2016-10-23T21:37:46-04:00

He would comply in front of other Soldiers but there would most definitely be a private discussion between them later.

Response by CPT Mordecai O'Shea made Oct 23 at 2016 9:40 PM

2016-10-23T21:40:52-04:00

The regulation is clear on this topic. That being said, a CSM should NEVER be in a situation where a LT felt the need to assert his authority.

Response by Cpl William Bumbalough made Oct 23 at 2016 10:22 PM

2016-10-23T22:22:02-04:00

While deployed with my battalion (5th Marines) a butter bar called our battalion SgtMg by his first name while in the chow hall in Camp Fallujah.

This is the real reason you cannot have your phones while on deployment.

"THE FUCK DID YOU JUST SAY?!"

Response by PO1 Greg Allen made Oct 23 at 2016 10:50 PM

2016-10-23T22:50:58-04:00

I was an E-6 in the Navy. Never have I failed to salute any officer. Never have I witnessed any NCO failing to salute. It's a military courtesy that should be honored. I realize that a green officer knows less than an NCO. The salaute should still be rendered. A good officer will not go out of the his way to belittle those under him. A good officer will consult with his NCO's and respect their opinions.

Response by LT James Fox made Oct 23 at 2016 11:22 PM

2016-10-23T23:22:58-04:00

When I was an E5, I was on a ship and we were going through OPPE (Operational Propulsion Plant Examination) where they test the engineering plant on the ship. While on watch during the examination we had an issue and the ship went in the dark. I was controlling the speed of the ship and our engineering officer of the watch (EOOW) was a Master Chief (E9). After we got the ship back up answering bells the head of the inspection team came up and chewed out the EOOW for not following proper protocol and giving directions to the watch standers. We all knew our jobs and worked like a well oil machine. He stood there facing this officer, who was a Captain, full bird, O6, clenched his fists at his side and said, "With all due respect sir, get the hell out of my space." The Captain left. A little while later the Captain came down and apologized to the Master Chief in front of everyone. He was a great E9 and someone I looked up to with great respect. When I received my commission I never ever talked to any E7 and above without due respect nor did I embarrass them in front of others by talking down to them or making them stand at attention. I guess with 17 yrs enlisted experience you understand that sort of thing. LOL

Response by CPO Dempsey Faulkner made Oct 23 at 2016 11:33 PM

2016-10-23T23:33:44-04:00

The O1 would not be happy or have a ass to sit on

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 11:56 PM

2016-10-23T23:56:22-04:00

Age or rank should not be the sole determining factor whether or not you address another service member as sir. I may just be a lowly little Senior Airmen in the Air Force, but I address everyone either by sir or their name and rank. Obviously because most people out rank me, but I even render the same courtesies to the airmen below me. All the same with standing for anyone who talks to me. It's about professionalism.

Response by PO2 Eric Vorlage made Oct 24 at 2016 12:28 AM

2016-10-24T00:28:46-04:00

Yes.we are taught to respect the rank...not the man (or woman).

Response by SPC Rodger Johnson made Oct 24 at 2016 12:36 AM

2016-10-24T00:36:58-04:00

If he were as professional as all I ever knew in my 11 years in both National Guard and active he would politely comply while smirking the whole time and then when meeting with the battalion commander for their usual afternoon drink the Lts name would be mentioned and the boys CO would get a call and the next time that college boy saw CSM he would just nod and wish the Sergeant Major a good day then carry on about his business.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 1:04 AM

2016-10-24T01:04:07-04:00

As a Master Sergeant (E8) in Afghanistan I passed a young 2LT as I was leaving a building and he was entering. I gave him a quick nod as I put my cap on my head and continued on. He called out, "Hey, troop." I turned my head and he said, "is that how the Army taught you to treat an officer?" I said "I'm not sure what you mean sir" to which he replied "oh now it's sir? You couldn't be bothered to even acknowledge me let alone salute when you passed me a minute ago!" So I went to attention, snapped him a salute, and said, sorry sir, I had things on my mind. I'll remember next time." He actually had the audacity to say, "you'd better."
Fast forward to a regional briefing a few weeks later. All of the brass were there, and I spotted this young 2LT sitting in one of the chairs against the wall as I came in. He also saw me, but looked confused as I took a seat AT THE TABLE. During the meeting the 2LT meekly raised his hand at one point to ask a question about Intel. The 1-Star in charge told him that it would be addressed during the Intel briefing part of the meeting. Shortly after, the 1-Star introduced me and said that as the resident Intel expert for our area I would be delivering the Intel briefing. Then he swiveled in his chair toward the 2LT and said, "Lieutenant, listen to this man. He has answers to questions you don't know to ask yet."
After I completed my briefing the 1-Star informed everyone that my office was the coordinating office for all Intel in the area and that they should all go to me for any questions or needs.
After that the 2LT found his way to my office, and apologized about twenty times over the course of an hour for his behavior. To which I continuously replied, "no worries sir, you're new. Everyone's gotta learn sometime."
MORAL: 1. Treat people with the respect that we all deserve as human beings. 2. Treat those with rank with the respect their ranks demands. 3. Don't EVER lord what you think is your power over others, because 4. someone else's position may be beyond what you think is your power.

*That lieutenant and I got along swimmingly after all of that.

Response by SPC Erik Frame made Oct 24 at 2016 2:00 AM

2016-10-24T02:00:34-04:00

I've seen this before with a MSG with Delta Force under his belt. Both had a disagreement with the string order on a airborne jump. After the bickering the MSG finally said," Sir, I've got more confirmed kills than you got college credits, so we are doing this my way!"

Response by Sgt Frank Sleeper made Oct 24 at 2016 4:53 AM

2016-10-24T04:53:05-04:00

Oh hell with E9. I had a Butterbar "attempt" to humiliate me (Sgt USMC) at the time near a formation for complete BS. A quick trip by the "Top" (Master Guns) and the little puppy learned appropriate respect for his troops and especially NCOs who are keeping his dumb ass slice and training him

Response by SGT Bill DuRose made Oct 24 at 2016 5:39 AM

2016-10-24T05:39:21-04:00

I would want believe the 01 would have more respect than to do something so foolish.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 6:00 AM

2016-10-24T06:00:01-04:00

As an NCO with near 8 years experience in the Army. I have seen several E-9's, all of them I would dare say we're the epitome of professionalism. We're I in their shoes, I will do as instructed. Even as a young SGT, I find myself consistently educating new PLs/Pilots about they way we operate in the hangar. I do not tell them how to do their jobs, that is the CDR'S role. I ensure they are educated and advised so they make the best decisions for the unit, as is their role. With these experiences, utilizing appropriate tact and respect will never get you Locked Up, especially if they understand what an NCO really is... keyword is BACKBONE.

Response by 1SG Charles Simpson made Oct 24 at 2016 7:58 AM

2016-10-24T07:58:49-04:00

By the book, the E9 is required to obey the orders of commissioned officers but I believe the circumstances at the time would dictate whether it should be expected that the E9 would obey. I probably would not comply because I would be laughing too hard.

Response by COL Bill McFarland made Oct 24 at 2016 8:36 AM

2016-10-24T08:36:14-04:00

The premise here is nonsense. These senior NCOs work directly for senior officers and under the cover of those officers' authority. I know of no organization where an E-8 or above reports to an O-1. Everyone must understand their place in the organization. As a 2LT, I treated these senior NCOs with a great deal of respect and genuinely deferred to their experience. I think their assistance and insights were key. I also cannot remember ever seeing a senior NCO not beating any company grade officers to a salute or other formal sign of respect. I think they had a sixth sense or radar for avoiding the issue so they could focus on the job at hand. Lastly, I remember junior NCOs in places like PX parking lots with arms full and toddlers who would make a nod or other reasonable effort. Common sense, folks, right?

Response by LT Carlos Barata made Oct 24 at 2016 8:57 AM

2016-10-24T08:57:00-04:00

My father was an Senor Chief in the Navy (E-8) when I graduated from the US Naval Academy (25 years ago, yikes), and while he is a man of few words, he made sure to "educate" me on the proper way to interact with all the enlisted I'd work with, but very much what I should and better yet, should not do, as a newly minted Ensign. Basically he said, none will ever publicly make me look bad, even when I'm an ass, but if I listened, treated them with respect, and understood that I still had a lot to learn, an effective relationship with my senior NCOs would be incredibly career enhancing. He was right! At least this Ensign made sure I kept my mouth shut, ears open and learned the dazzling pearls of wisdom the senior NCOs I got to work with handed out. Their advice serves me, even today.

Response by SGM M Crisp made Oct 24 at 2016 9:06 AM

2016-10-24T09:06:54-04:00

As a Sergeants Major Drop the mic, enough said...

Response by PO2 Janna Ryals made Oct 24 at 2016 9:23 AM

2016-10-24T09:23:48-04:00

I'd just want to stand back and watch the repercussions.

Response by Sgt Robin Weaver made Oct 24 at 2016 9:36 AM

2016-10-24T09:36:23-04:00

Response by LCpl Dan McTiernan made Oct 24 at 2016 9:42 AM

2016-10-24T09:42:03-04:00

As a relatively boot Marine an Officer (O1) ordered us to secure and lock up crypto equipment at the reboot (1969). The Officer got upset with me when I walked to the back of the open cabinet and make the crypto update and he insisted that I open the door, turn the crypto make the update, turn the crypto gear around and secure the door. Keep in mind that there was a large door on a 4 or 5 shelf cabinet with no sides. No sides and he wanted me to only go through the door? Cabinet sitting in the middle of the room next to the teletype machine! What! I had more than a few choice words, yes I was smart enough this time to keep my comments under my breath. An E7 coached me later to salute the rank not the person. Stupidity has no limits. I apply the same to POTUS.

Response by Sgt John Bynum made Oct 24 at 2016 9:51 AM

2016-10-24T09:51:39-04:00

RHIP

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 9:56 AM

2016-10-24T09:56:25-04:00

Response by SN Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 10:07 AM

2016-10-24T10:07:20-04:00

Response by SCPO Jeffrey Curran made Oct 24 at 2016 10:19 AM

2016-10-24T10:19:54-04:00

First I would stand up and face this young ensign and address the issue head on. This did happy me a few times in my career and understand one thing I showed the young officer the difference between earned respect and demanded respect all in one sentence and in front of his/her subordinates. And as with the article above I was called in front of the XO and CMC but, as the Doc on board who due you think took the hit? Wasn't me. All I was told was try and play nice because we need our young officers to want to stay in. So moral of the story don't surrender to young impulsive officers who think after two years in the Military they know more then a 24-30 Veteran.

Response by AN Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 10:45 AM

2016-10-24T10:45:57-04:00

I witnessed a master Chief tell an a butter bar to climb up fid gold anchor and kiss his two silver stars.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 10:46 AM

2016-10-24T10:46:38-04:00

Hew better comply, for all kinds of reasons -- appearance, UCMJ, all kinds. But afterwards, there would likely be some fallout.

In 1977, I was a brand new Marine PFC going to tech school at NAS Memphis. One day, while walking down the sidewalk, I heard what sounded almost like a dogfight on the sidewalk across the street. When I looked over there, here was this Master Chief about 6' 6" tall, with an Ensign perhaps 5' 8" tall, yelling up at him. I mean, it looked almost like Odie going after Garfield. After a minute, the Master Chief stopped walking, looked down at this Ensign, and just BLASTED him. "WOULD YOU JUST SHUT THE F*** UP!!!" I guess they didn't see me over on the other sidewalk staring at them with my mouth open! :-) When the Master Chief noticed me, it was MY turn -- "AND WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?"

I've never forgotten that incident. Embarrassed for the both of them, my own embarrassment at seeing them, wondering if that Ensign woke up or went to the civilian world in a couple of years, etc.

Response by SFC Randy Stoneroad made Oct 24 at 2016 12:56 PM

2016-10-24T12:56:28-04:00

The E-9 may comply because he/she is a seasoned professional, but the LT would likely be schooled up by his chain of command.

Response by CSM Christopher St. Cyr made Oct 24 at 2016 1:20 PM

2016-10-24T13:20:48-04:00

Yes. Staff sergeants and Lieutenants run the Army. Sergeants major work for senior officers and are traditionally viewed as their representative. Life would suck for a young LT who acted disrespectfully towards his commander, even through the commander's proxy. The NCO does have a duty to comply with the orders of a commissioned officer regardless of which end of the pay scale either falls.

Response by SSG Matthew Wolfe made Oct 24 at 2016 1:24 PM

2016-10-24T13:24:54-04:00

I am here to read the story.

Response by SPC Dennis Brown made Oct 24 at 2016 1:36 PM

2016-10-24T13:36:25-04:00

you have to respect the rank not the person

Response by Brian Schoonmaker made Oct 24 at 2016 1:55 PM

2016-10-24T13:55:52-04:00

Yes

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 3:30 PM

2016-10-24T15:30:50-04:00

Depends who has lost their military bearing.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 3:56 PM

2016-10-24T15:56:43-04:00

This reminds me of a story my old man (a retired E-9) once told me. My father prepared for the day with his 0-5 in the orderly room when a young 2LT walked in a fit yelling at all my dad's PSG's. My old man looked at the 2LT and asked "Sir, do you know what the maximum effective range of a 2LT is?" As the 2LT looked back at the CSM, my dad held up his two fingers as they touched. "This far" he said "now shut the hell up and let the colonel and I handle this"

Response by A1C Sean Black made Oct 24 at 2016 4:28 PM

2016-10-24T16:28:00-04:00

Do it unless you want to retire early...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 4:29 PM

2016-10-24T16:29:23-04:00

Um, funny story about that lol

Response by MSG Daniel S. Rodriguez made Oct 24 at 2016 4:36 PM

2016-10-24T16:36:45-04:00

YES.......like it or not. unless it's an unlawful order.

Response by COL David Lahm made Oct 24 at 2016 6:26 PM

2016-10-24T18:26:38-04:00

Yes but as for the LT he will soon become familiar with the phrase "win the battle; lose the war"

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 6:28 PM

2016-10-24T18:28:39-04:00

I mean yea they would have to comply... My first deployment the command center had a 1LT(former SFC) and an SGM who didn't get along and the 1LT would lock him up all the time but justly so (the CSM often concurred). But in my opinion a 2LT shouldn't be locking up anyone unless they are brazenly and blatantly disrespected. A soldier missing a salute... Whatever. I try to avoid my CSM as a WO1 but we are always cordial to eachother but I don't ever try and get in his lane or interfere with NCO business. And I damn sure never expect a salute from my CSM nor would ever ask for one

Response by SMSgt Lonnie Backus made Oct 24 at 2016 6:38 PM

2016-10-24T18:38:30-04:00

Yes the military has RULES and regulations

Response by SPC Randy Benetti made Oct 24 at 2016 7:51 PM

2016-10-24T19:51:45-04:00

Yes he would because he has respect.

Response by SGT Stanley Bass made Oct 24 at 2016 8:03 PM

2016-10-24T20:03:45-04:00

I would agree with most statements below, The LT would be called LT not sir, and behind closed doors there would be some verbal counselling for sure. By the CSM of course

Response by SA Troy Wyant made Oct 24 at 2016 8:04 PM

2016-10-24T20:04:35-04:00

Asked that quesrion of a 01. He stated that when young people are around the E9 treated him as a superior but when just the two of them he treated the E9 as his mentor. Very classy young officer.

Response by AN Pete Landon made Oct 24 at 2016 8:22 PM

2016-10-24T20:22:55-04:00

Absolutely,chain of command,
off the books touchy.

Response by Sgt Jason Shaw made Oct 24 at 2016 10:06 PM

2016-10-24T22:06:08-04:00

Just about every butter bar Lt I ever knew was intimidated by Sergeants Majors, and downright terrified of Master Gunnery Sergeants. I don't think most of the SgtsMajs and Master Gunnies I served under even acknowledged the existence of 2nd Lt's anyway.

Response by MSgt David Hudson made Oct 24 at 2016 10:34 PM

2016-10-24T22:34:46-04:00

Yes by custom. Then the O5 would tell the 2LT that his next assignment would be 3 days the other side of the end of all the supply lines.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 10:36 PM

2016-10-24T22:36:29-04:00

The thing is, everyone knows who the actual BDIC here, it's the e-9. It's upon him to be magnanimous and humble with his proverbial schlong he throws around his shoulder. If the enswine or whomever tries that shit, all it would take is a private conversation after standing at attention, and coming back to the squad. Where it will be obvious the chain of command and moral unaffected

Response by PO3 Christopher Jonah Nelson made Oct 25 at 2016 12:39 AM

2016-10-25T00:39:53-04:00

Absolutely they would, but if it's over a disagreement, then that O1 is going to get jacked up. There are better ways of handling your troops when you don't agree on how to run the team than coming at your senior staff full-bore.

All of these stories actually remind me of when I was an E2 just running papers back and forth from one desk to another at my facility. Anytime I left the Flight Planning Branch I had to go outside of the hangar doors into another wing of the building to get to our RADAR room or the control tower...we had a Gunny come by one day and I had just walked out of the doors of one wing towards another with no cover on, and our ET2 on duty was just walking out of the central hangar bay where they do repairs, and I heard ET2 greet the Gunny (pretty loudly).

Turns out the Gunny was getting ready to get after me for not wearing a cover, but got put in his place (pre-emptively) by a proactive Second Class who saw what was coming and informed this Gunny that he was in the wrong for wearing a cover on a flight deck. I didn't even find out about it until about a week after.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Oct 25 at 2016 12:43 AM

2016-10-25T00:43:39-04:00

Yes, of course, because "no one is more professional than I" and it is the law. But, I would say unlikely, if the 2LT has a brain...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 2:22 AM

2016-10-25T02:22:40-04:00

Yes the would have to comply. In respect to rank structure. After 2LT getting rough up with out a doubt.

Response by SFC David F. Podesta made Oct 25 at 2016 2:33 AM

2016-10-25T02:33:48-04:00

Praise in public, criticize in private.

Response by SPC Lori Ann Smith made Oct 25 at 2016 5:18 AM

2016-10-25T05:18:48-04:00

My XO my first time in Germany was a very young female LT... All of the NCOs in our unit were older than she was but they had a mutual respect for each other... the young E-1s E-2s & E-3s however didn't quite understand the importance of respect between Ranks... she & I were working our company booth at an on base fest and a few of the boys came up and asked what her first name was... she responded Lieutenant... they asked again... "no ma'am, we mean out of uniform or off base?" I (an E-4 Specialist) responded got her... "On base or off she is a 1st Lieutenant and your company Executive Officer, she will always be addressed as Lieutenant (last name), L T, X O, or ma'am... are we clear?" the boys agreed and the issue never came up with them again... In the office and out, she & I were friends, but I never broke that respect line by calling her anything else but her rank or position...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 6:07 AM

2016-10-25T06:07:47-04:00

I've definitely never witnessed this, although I have seen a CSM tell a butter bar to stand at parade rest.

Response by PVT Carl Malone made Oct 25 at 2016 8:10 AM

2016-10-25T08:10:04-04:00

In Basic at Banning we were in cattle trucks heading out to get our initial equipment issue and stopped at an intersection. An E9 comes walking past with his head down in concentration and passed 2 butterbars. One of the butterbars turns as they pass and says " Excuse me Sergeant, but do you know how to salute?"
The E9 pivots on his heel turns and faces the butternut and says " Yes Sir I do, unfortunately at the moment I don't have time to teach you"
He turned and was gone so fast the butterbars has no time to answer.
Needless to say the WHOLE cattle truck busted out laughing......

Response by PV2 Patricia Banks made Oct 25 at 2016 8:43 AM

2016-10-25T08:43:14-04:00

In the military it seems officer have forgotten respect they believe that civilians are their only help but remember who does the true work. Respect is earned not not given and many enlisted fake it.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Oct 25 at 2016 9:38 AM

2016-10-25T09:38:32-04:00

Not really related but thought I would share a second story.

I was OJT out to the motor pool for a possible position in the motorpool, was just before Desert Storm at Campbell. I am a lowly PFC at the time. Everyone had went to lunch in the shop. I was under a HMMWV replacing a starter, 24 V, heavy as hell. I had one bolt started barley, when someone walked up and kicked my feet, then asked where the Chief was. We had a WO 2 over the motor pool. I said that he was probably at chow and continued to work. I got kicked again and I told them if they did it again I was coming out and there would be hell to pay! With a few expletives added. When the individual grabbed me by the feet and pulled me and my creeper out, me cussing and just as I clear the HWMMV the starter hit the floor! When I look up it's the Brigade CSM. I snap to parade rest and start apologizing immediately! He held his hand up stopping me. Asked what had just hit the floor. I told him that I had been replacing the starter and that I was having trouble treading the bolts when he yanked me out! He apologized and we talked for almost 30 min. He was cool as hell and I didn't die!! From that point on when we seen each other there was a difference between us, not in a bad way. He would always greet me and shake my hand and ask me how everything was going. Made me see that CSM and SGM where human and that they really DIDN'T want to eat me! LOL

Response by Sgt Bob Deardorff made Oct 25 at 2016 10:00 AM

2016-10-25T10:00:01-04:00

He certainly would, but a big mistake by a butter bars. The butter bars should respect the E9 in a manner that goes beyond just rank.

Response by SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates made Oct 25 at 2016 10:11 AM

2016-10-25T10:11:47-04:00

Sgt Jason Shaw I was going to speak up, but decided to see if it had already been addressed.

Response by LCpl Wesley Piner made Oct 25 at 2016 10:18 AM

2016-10-25T10:18:41-04:00

Depending on situation is how e9 would act but it wouldn't end there

Response by SFC Michael Dillon made Oct 25 at 2016 11:15 AM

2016-10-25T11:15:21-04:00

I've seen it happen and it's funny, but usually the "LT" is corrected later

Response by SPC Mike Donovan made Oct 25 at 2016 11:50 AM

2016-10-25T11:50:26-04:00

Yes

Response by A1C Ted Davidson made Oct 25 at 2016 12:53 PM

2016-10-25T12:53:18-04:00

yes, chain of command

Response by Cpl Mark Stroker Burnett made Oct 25 at 2016 1:50 PM

2016-10-25T13:50:35-04:00

Yes, but the 2lt would lose in the long run

Response by SSG Gary Dilworth made Oct 25 at 2016 1:54 PM

2016-10-25T13:54:34-04:00

Yes, out of respect for the officer rank. Hopefully the LT would have the brains and proper training to avoid such situations.

Response by SSgt Scott Noble made Oct 25 at 2016 1:57 PM

2016-10-25T13:57:00-04:00

I don't think a properly trained O1 would even consider doing this and on the flipside, a truly professional E9 would never put his or her self in that situation.

Response by PO3 David Fancher made Oct 25 at 2016 3:35 PM

2016-10-25T15:35:36-04:00

Yes of course, the E9 is still Enlisted, however their might be a problem with a ASS chewing from a CO to the 01 later! LOL!!!

Response by CDR Thomas Townsend made Oct 25 at 2016 4:26 PM

2016-10-25T16:26:12-04:00

Yes, the 01 while new to the military is still senior to the E9

Response by Michael Killingstad made Oct 25 at 2016 4:48 PM

2016-10-25T16:48:50-04:00

My father was a SGM and said he never called a lt, sir.

Response by PO3 Tammy Gibson made Oct 25 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-10-25T17:01:43-04:00

I will obey all orders, so yes

Response by PO2 Bill Kanellis made Oct 25 at 2016 5:22 PM

2016-10-25T17:22:25-04:00

yes

Response by Cpl Johnboymurdock . made Oct 25 at 2016 5:34 PM

2016-10-25T17:34:49-04:00

I saw this happen once. Butter bar in camies, SgtMaj is Alphas. Walking in and out of a building at the same time. Over no salute. SgtMaj refused and in his demonic "go fuck yourself voice" responded with if you want a salute climb my rockers and get it. And walked inside

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 5:46 PM

2016-10-25T17:46:48-04:00

Ones an enlisted, ones an officer...not much debate..... BUT, no one ever said 2LTs had common sense( especially a West Pointer).

Response by MSG Steve Fultz made Oct 25 at 2016 7:47 PM

2016-10-25T19:47:55-04:00

Come to attention

Response by SN Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 8:05 PM

2016-10-25T20:05:07-04:00

Personally my Grandfather was an E-9 Radioman now (Electronic technician) at the time when he served and he told me stories. Anytime an O-1 - O-3 wants to command respect but not have the time in you better watch how you address them cause it doesnt matter if your superior if you dont kniw what your talking about. (I have personally never seen a situation like this in person)

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 8:07 PM

2016-10-25T20:07:44-04:00

Yes

Response by SFC Paul Olsen made Oct 25 at 2016 8:30 PM

2016-10-25T20:30:07-04:00

My favorite story regarding this situation goes like this...

When I was a young Specialist in Germany in the early 90's I was serving On Staff duty one day. I was out in front of the building taking a smoke break and our very grizzled but soldier friendly CSM joined me to smoke and chat as he usually did with other soldiers. I noticed a an angry young LT approaching from behind the CSM and he started yelling at us about smoking and BSing in front of HQS and demanded we drop and push. I looked at the CSM who half sneered and half smiled, kept his cigarette tight in in his mouth and dropped and started pushing. Of course I crushed out mine and pushed too. The LT continued to yell and scream at the CSM because he was still smoking while getting smoked (of course the LT thought he was barking at just another soldier). Then the CSM slowly rose, turned to look at the LT and blew a huge cloud of smoke into is wide eyed and terrified face. The CSM flung his cigarette on the ground and said that he had and appointment with the Colonel. He turned, went up the steps and gently beckoned me with him as he went into HQS. I quickly returned to the duty desk, but not two minutes later, the Colonel came storming out of his office, and ran out the door. I'm not sure what went down but all I know is that when I made my way to how that evening, I saw that LT standing at attention at the flagpole with a stack of FM's in one hand.

It doesn't pay to piss off the CSM and the commander's best friend.

Response by SGM Edward Sullivan made Oct 25 at 2016 8:50 PM

2016-10-25T20:50:25-04:00

I would of course come to attention as ordered, let the young officer spout whatever it was that was so darned important, then I would tell said young officer to report to the Commanders Office to explain to him/her as to why he/she had the audacity to brace the Commanders SGM. IF said officer ignored me, that would be fine also, because said officer would be hard pressed NOT to respond to an ORDER to report to the Commander. Luckily I NEVER was faced with this extraordinarily ill thought out exercise of stupidity. Most MP Officers are smart enough to NEVER do this.
In my Battalion, after their initial brief by the XO, new, young officers were told to report to the SGM for further briefing. After calming them down and telling them they needn't stand a Parade Rest, I had them sit in one of the comfortable chairs and I would explain how they fit into the Battalion, an overview of the Senior NCOs in their Unit, and then a more in depth view of their PSG. After this briefing, these young Officers were NEVER afraid to ask for my advice and I gave it as best as I could for the situation the Officer had.

Response by SGT Steffen Siegrist made Oct 25 at 2016 9:47 PM

2016-10-25T21:47:24-04:00

It would be a show.

Response by LCpl Julian Acciard made Oct 25 at 2016 10:14 PM

2016-10-25T22:14:10-04:00

Does he have to comply with a lawful order yes, but should he, no the disagreement in a nonprofessional manner taints the officer's judgement and ability to give orders to that CSM.

Response by SGT Eddie Lee made Oct 25 at 2016 10:14 PM

2016-10-25T22:14:27-04:00

Honestly, I would sit back and watch the fireworks...

Response by CPO Robrandt-Paul Sy Go made Oct 25 at 2016 11:40 PM

2016-10-25T23:40:51-04:00

As the official hierarchy dictates, and in the presence of junior personnel, yes, as to avoid the perception of undermining appointed authority. But once the kiddies have dispersed, stand by for heavy rolls, Ensign!

Response by SGT Alex Kendrick made Oct 26 at 2016 12:17 AM

2016-10-26T00:17:36-04:00

Yes the E9 would have to based on rank. How ever the E9 was promoted how many mor times than the LT.? Officers should not be in position based on the fact that they went to college. Most NCO's have more experience in lofe than most Officers have in Rank. You should not be able to be an Officer until you are an E4.

Response by CPL Tony Mullins made Oct 26 at 2016 4:16 AM

2016-10-26T04:16:49-04:00

Yes

Response by CPO Chris Lockett made Oct 26 at 2016 5:08 AM

2016-10-26T05:08:37-04:00

Haha, No! Especially not in the Navy. Sorry Butter Bar... Hope you enjoy your new duty station!

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 5:52 AM

2016-10-26T05:52:31-04:00

Nope. He'd laugh.

Response by SSG Charles Elia made Oct 26 at 2016 6:37 AM

2016-10-26T06:37:52-04:00

He would comply but boy what a storm later in the Man's office.

Response by CPL James Lynch made Oct 26 at 2016 6:38 AM

2016-10-26T06:38:53-04:00

Only out of courtesy

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 8:02 AM

2016-10-26T08:02:02-04:00

Yes they would obey the order. But best believe that O1 has NOTHING coming afterwards.

Response by SN Lonnie Wilcox made Oct 26 at 2016 9:15 AM

2016-10-26T09:15:36-04:00

Saw this with my own eyes, the new ensign was chewing out a master chief on the main cargo deck of our ship. THE ensign had his finger in the master chiefs face. This went on for what seemed like eternity. After the ensign was done the master chief asked " are you done? Cuz now it's my turn! First don't you ever stick your finger in my face ever again! Second I respect that bar on your collar, but you on the other hand need to earn that respect. Third this ship will cease to function if it weren't for me doing the things that I do! NOW, get the@$!# off my cargo deck! The ensign went to the CO, and the CO told him that the Master chief was right and that when he (the CO ) had certain questions he went to the Master chief .

Response by SSgt Robert Atkinson made Oct 26 at 2016 10:38 AM

2016-10-26T10:38:27-04:00

Mysquadron commander would take a group of EM's to the chow hall on Steak Days. He loved to play "butter-bar." When we saw a butter-bar we'd get in single file behind our Maintenance Officer, a captain. The Colonel would be in the rear. The Lt. Would salute the captain and We'd each salute the Lt, by the time he got to the Colonel he'd expect a salute, and the Colonel would read him a riot act for not saluting him! Tended to put young butter-bar in their place

Response by SGT Dean Stjohn made Oct 26 at 2016 12:12 PM

2016-10-26T12:12:51-04:00

It would be fun to watch as the E9 puts the O1 in his or her place

Response by SSG Jason Letterman made Oct 26 at 2016 12:16 PM

2016-10-26T12:16:40-04:00

Unfortunately the SGM would have to comply with the butter bar however shortly after I would expect the 3 the 5 and the 6 would be smoking the shit of the Lt unless there is something else going on

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 12:52 PM

2016-10-26T12:52:03-04:00

Technically they have to especially if they are in front of others

Response by PV2 Steven Ball made Oct 26 at 2016 1:29 PM

2016-10-26T13:29:40-04:00

Yes, the E9 would have to follow the order. However, at the end of the day the LT. Would be in charge of removing shit stains from the underware of privates after they complete 1st combat readiness drills

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 2:51 PM

2016-10-26T14:51:24-04:00

Response by PO1 Rbarreto372 . made Oct 26 at 2016 5:00 PM

2016-10-26T17:00:16-04:00

Yes

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 6:08 PM

2016-10-26T18:08:18-04:00

Sure, but does that Lt realizes his soul is about to be completely and utterly crushed?

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 6:18 PM

2016-10-26T18:18:24-04:00

Supposed to yes. Would he... Most likely not. I think about it when they do as a SGT. Haha

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 6:51 PM

2016-10-26T18:51:35-04:00

If i saw this happen, my butt would pucker for the fate of the 01.

Response by SPC Max Simon made Oct 26 at 2016 7:15 PM

2016-10-26T19:15:06-04:00

When I served we showed recept for the rank and position the Lt holds. The only time we didn't saulate an officer was in a battle zone

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 7:23 PM

2016-10-26T19:23:36-04:00

I'm here to read the comments but it is a given that an E9 would destroy a young O1 officer with no prior enlisted experience. An O1 that was prior enlisted depending on the rank he got up to prior would know better than to try a charade like that or would be able to match him if they were that rank prior (even still a situation like that would be handled differently amongst chiefs)

Response by SSgt Conlee James made Oct 26 at 2016 8:22 PM

2016-10-26T20:22:45-04:00

Once as an E-3 I was recovering an aircrft upon its return from a mission. The 2Lt stepped out of his aircraft and I rendered the customary salute and took his bag. He then began to tell me that his piddle bag had ruptured in the cockpit during the mission and that I needed to clean the cockpit. I politely explained to him that the jet was the responsibility of the maintainer and that the ruptired piddle bag was a bio hazard and asked him if he would mind taking care of it. He then proceeded to call me to attention and explain that it was now my responsibility then quickly turned and left me his mess. After he left the spot my flightline expiditer an E-7 asked me what had happened. I explained what had happened and he rold me not to clean it. In approximately 15 min the O-1 returned accompanied by a O-6 who then had the Lt clean the cockpit and appologized for the Lt's behavior.

Response by SSG Tom Pike made Oct 26 at 2016 8:46 PM

2016-10-26T20:46:38-04:00

My uncle used to tell a great story about his time in the air force. My uncle went through basic, graduated tech school top of his class and they made him in instructor as an E-2. First morning as an instructor he walked into the instructors lounge area to get some coffee. A young butter bar walked up in front of him to get a cup and the pot was empty. The 2lt shouts out "I want the lowest ranking man in this office to make a pot of coffee!" My uncle started to move towards the coffee pot as the old E-8 in the corner shouts out "Sir, there is nothing on this earth lower than a second lieutenant." The Lt made the coffee.

To answer the original question, yes an E-9 has to render proper respect to all commissioned officers, even an O-1. But any O-1 that doesn't respect the value of a senior non commissioned officer failed to listen in his OCS/ROTC classes.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 12:38 AM

2016-10-27T00:38:08-04:00

Sit back and watch the destruction

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 1:07 AM

2016-10-27T01:07:12-04:00

Hell no

Response by SSG Richard Roark made Oct 27 at 2016 1:22 AM

2016-10-27T01:22:18-04:00

Yes, then he'd let his O5 or O6 explain to the O1 the error of his ways. I was a TAC at Arty OCS in 1971, I never let a candidate that stupid graduate, ROTC is a totally different environment. I've held the hands of puppies from USC, VMI, and the Citadel, no idiots there, at least thru the mid 80s.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 1:31 AM

2016-10-27T01:31:15-04:00

Adam Burfitt I figured you'd like this

Response by CPL Geza Geisz made Oct 27 at 2016 1:53 AM

2016-10-27T01:53:12-04:00

Yes but, I wouldn't want to be that 2nd Lt stationed very long with him. I was a Cpl in Nam and I didn’t listen to anyone.

Response by SGT Enrique Reyes made Oct 27 at 2016 2:31 AM

2016-10-27T02:31:56-04:00

I saw an 01 tell an E7 what to do once. Needless to say it was the last time too. I can only imagine what would happen if an 01 even dared to speak out to an E9...better dig a hole!

Response by SSgt Carl Malone made Oct 27 at 2016 7:29 AM

2016-10-27T07:29:33-04:00

Had to deal with a 2Lt overseas who replaced my E8. The guy had no idea what the hell he was doing and was eventually reassigned somewhere else. Sending a greenhorn from the academy isn't any different from sending a greenhorn fresh from the streets.

Response by CPT Bruce Cantie made Oct 27 at 2016 7:33 AM

2016-10-27T07:33:30-04:00

As a young O1 many years ago, I could only laugh at a fellow 2LT that thought they would set the world on fire. I, however, being the son of an E8 knew what they did not. "Eyes Open, Mouth Shut". Listen to your PSG, he knows a hell of a lot more than you, learn from him, and stay the hell out of his way. And never, EVER ask one of your troops to do something you are not willing to do yourself. I got right in there and worked along side them, doing their job with them, so I knew what they were going through. My masters degree don't mean shit in the field.

Response by Timothy Orr made Oct 27 at 2016 7:43 AM

2016-10-27T07:43:13-04:00

Yes. 2Lt would catch hell after SGM talk with COL. though.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 8:22 AM

2016-10-27T08:22:30-04:00

Sure as a the military courtesy. Later the 2LT would be schooled.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 1:37 PM

2016-10-27T13:37:28-04:00

At FT Carson in the 90s I seen a CSM and 1SG rip a 1LT new asshole....nnw that is reality tv

Response by SFC Edwin Schoonover made Oct 27 at 2016 1:54 PM

2016-10-27T13:54:12-04:00

A an E-9 would comply with the directive however shortly thereafter the upper echelon staff of the command would take a big giant shit on the 0-1 behind closed doors

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 2:37 PM

2016-10-27T14:37:30-04:00

According to regs yes but that just made his life mistake.

Response by CW3 Jan Newman made Oct 27 at 2016 3:52 PM

2016-10-27T15:52:42-04:00

In my day respect the rank and not the person.

Response by PFC Richard Johnson made Oct 27 at 2016 5:08 PM

2016-10-27T17:08:18-04:00

Yes but a good captain will reel the Let in

Response by LTC Gary Roberts made Oct 27 at 2016 5:28 PM

2016-10-27T17:28:30-04:00

Let's get real! There are going to be rare occasions where it is both right and proper for a Second Lieutenant to order an E9 to attention. All this posturing about boys and youth directly detracts from the chain of command. When I was a Lieutenant I assumed complete responsibility for every order I ever gave, even those that resulted in the loss of my soldiers in combat. So if I jacked you up, then you deserved it, and I'd accept the consequences. This glorification of E9's on RallyPoint is great respect, until you realize a certain percentage don't deserve it. Google "Sergeant Major" and "criminal charges" and read and weep. You will find Command Sergeants Major of the Army in your results, along with the actual clown in Generation Kill who went to jail for child abuse. My apologies to the good Sergeants Major I served with, but to the man, they'd respect the Lieutenant. Besides, this ordering to attention is pretty damn rare. Treat the chain of command (up and down) with respect and you'll do well. I can't remember ever needing to jack a soldier to attention.

Response by SN Cody Elkins made Oct 27 at 2016 6:00 PM

2016-10-27T18:00:10-04:00

When I was in the navy, around 2012, I read a masting report where a Master Chief got masted (NJP) for insubordination, and Article 92. This happened at NNTPC when I was a booster with recruities. He didn't salute an Ensign and got told to halt and ordered to salute. He then said he had more respect for his pen before ignoring the order to salute. I forget if it was public or not, but Cpt Faus was very mast happy.

Response by Cpl Frank Randall made Oct 27 at 2016 6:33 PM

2016-10-27T18:33:03-04:00

Yes, and then in private, let the Lt. know how little he actually knew about the Corps, or life in general.

Response by SPC James Lemson made Oct 27 at 2016 6:42 PM

2016-10-27T18:42:26-04:00

I am glad to say I had mostly good officers and many great NCOs also while I was in. I was a Spc and more than once I had officers and NCOs who reported to me for details. I didn't deal with many LTs, but the CPT I normally worked with would ask for my advice and follow it with no problems. The one-time I had an issue with an LT was when I was driving the BDE CMD, I had am LT order me out of the vehicle and he had me do h push-ups in the middle of the road, I was only up to about 10 when the COL ordered me to recover and count for the LT who then proceeded to attempt 82 push-ups. That was an eye opener for me 2 weeks out of AIT.

Response by SSgt Sherry Thomas made Oct 27 at 2016 7:38 PM

2016-10-27T19:38:28-04:00

Yes. He/she would comply. But there would be consequences.

Response by SSG Eric Mohr made Oct 27 at 2016 9:26 PM

2016-10-27T21:26:58-04:00

Yes, but the lt would be schooled afterwards

Response by CPO Steven Voigt made Oct 27 at 2016 10:06 PM

2016-10-27T22:06:28-04:00

I would obey the order but I would explain the facts of life to him while at attention
Did twice shortly before retirement. 2 different enswines

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 10:09 PM

2016-10-27T22:09:45-04:00

As per the UCMJ he would have to, since technically a superior officer gave him an order. BUT! As an E-9, he/she has ridiculous authority and that O-1 wI'll definitely learn their place and the never fuck with an E-9 ever again lol

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 10:45 PM

2016-10-27T22:45:18-04:00

In front of juniors, he would. The knife hands would come out later.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 11:15 PM

2016-10-27T23:15:06-04:00

Yes the E9 is required to but at the same time the 2LT needs to respect that E9 because that E9 had earned his or her place and respect.

Response by SGT Nancy Page made Oct 28 at 2016 12:55 AM

2016-10-28T00:55:58-04:00

Nothing would happen

Response by SSgt Coby Crewse made Oct 28 at 2016 1:39 AM

2016-10-28T01:39:18-04:00

I dont believe I've ever seen an O-1 stupid enough to do that l.

Response by SPC Bryan Krebsbach made Oct 28 at 2016 1:56 AM

2016-10-28T01:56:11-04:00

I knew an Lt that when asked a question about senior NCO'' needing to salute.. the Lt replied they do it outta courtesy and that they wouldn't want to piss of one...

Response by SN Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2016 2:28 AM

2016-10-28T02:28:34-04:00

Response by A1C Tony Schultz made Oct 28 at 2016 4:22 AM

2016-10-28T04:22:28-04:00

Yes as to it being professional, but never should someone brand new need to command someone who has been in for so long to attention, that is more abuse to power. Any enlisted will know to respect an officer, and will help guide them through their knowledge as a professional.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2016 12:04 PM

2016-10-28T12:04:20-04:00

Yes

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2016 12:37 PM

2016-10-28T12:37:30-04:00

The other day I was walking through BN HQ and I saw this boot walking over in alphas with his firewater ribbon and shooting badge. As we crossed paths he goes, "good morning gentlemen" my buddy simply said "hey" I said "what's up man" and continued walking. Assuming he was a pvt who just got to the fleet I didn't think much of it until I looked behind me and noticed the butterbars on his shoulders. Well sir... the tables have changed lol

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2016 5:11 PM

2016-10-28T17:11:43-04:00

Well of course the E9 is going to acknowledge and abide by customs and courtesies, but I can also promise the E9 is going to be having a talk with someone else that easily out ranks that butter Bar and hinge will be very different.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2016 7:08 PM

2016-10-28T19:08:11-04:00

An O1 (Ensign -Navy) and an E9 (Master Chief- Navy) crossed paths in a Training command; the O1 stops and sees that he wasn't saluted and Turns around to the E9 to say "excuse me Master Chief did you forget something?" , The Master chief looks back perplexed then says "Oh I suppose I did", Master Chief reaches into his pocket and pulls out a Navy Coin and Tosses it to the O1, "Here" he says!, "tell your mother you met a real sailor today!" then goes about and carries on with his day.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2016 7:08 PM

2016-10-28T19:08:26-04:00

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2016 7:13 PM

2016-10-28T19:13:18-04:00

I was walking from the LSA to work along a road we called sniper alley (for a reason) on Camp Victory Iraq back in 2003. A reserve 2LT walks pass me (a PV2 at the time), I do not slaute but instead say the greeting of the day. He stops and calls me back to him insisting a salute. I oblige and say "Roger, sniper check sir." rendering a bold and over the top salute.

Just behind him was the General and CSM. The General walks up to me with the CSM right behind him. I think I am about to get ripped apart. The General says "Did that LT just tell you to salute him?" I said yes sir. He smirked, "Fuckin Lieutenants." and walked away. The CSM patted me on the back and gave me the same smug smile and followed the General.

When I got to work I told my section who didn't believe me! But who would? If I wasn't there I wouldn't have believed it my self.

Response by SPC Steven Seig made Oct 28 at 2016 11:42 PM

2016-10-28T23:42:12-04:00

He should reply but I'm sure the commander would tell that butterbar to back off

Response by SP5 James Asel made Oct 29 at 2016 12:07 AM

2016-10-29T00:07:57-04:00

Yes he is suppose to but better have a sack on you to do it

Response by LCpl Robert Jones made Oct 29 at 2016 1:25 AM

2016-10-29T01:25:05-04:00

According to the UCMJ and the oath, technically the E9 should. However, not too many lower echelon officers are that stupid.

Response by CSM David Byrnes made Oct 29 at 2016 1:32 AM

2016-10-29T01:32:36-04:00

An officer is an officer.

Response by CW4 James Taylor made Oct 29 at 2016 1:54 AM

2016-10-29T01:54:02-04:00

Yes, but the LT would be ansering to a higher command.

Response by SA Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2016 1:12 PM

2016-10-29T13:12:20-04:00

This week I had an O1 fail my room and my instructor (LPO) said you took that from somebody who just got out of college and put on an officer uniform said if that was him, he wouldn't take that shit

Response by AN Brian Jackman made Oct 29 at 2016 1:21 PM

2016-10-29T13:21:43-04:00

Of course he would.

Response by LCDR Martin Jones made Oct 29 at 2016 5:39 PM

2016-10-29T17:39:42-04:00

A newlyintend 90 day wonder reported aboard USS Tripoli (LPH-10) and proceeded to tell a fleet E6 (who had been on board for 5.years) to.take.an unlit.cigar out of his mouth. THE E6 locked the O1 in a paint locker. Afterwards, the department to head suggested the O1 take some time to learn the Navy way.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2016 6:04 PM

2016-10-29T18:04:50-04:00

Technically yes, but it's not in his or her best interest. The senior officer that the CSM works for will surely have a come to Jesus moment with the entire chain of command. He or she will not allow their battle to be messed with.

Response by SSgt Shawn Raker made Oct 29 at 2016 6:53 PM

2016-10-29T18:53:35-04:00

Sure, that's the duty. However, I'd like to be a fly on the wall for the closed door follow up. Wouldn't be the 1st time I've seen a butter bar piss himself

Response by MSgt Charles Figueroa made Oct 29 at 2016 8:23 PM

2016-10-29T20:23:55-04:00

Ive been retired for 1yr after a 24yr career as an E7 in the AF.. I will say that 01 is about to get a rude awakening....

Response by SGT Dario Diaz made Oct 29 at 2016 9:26 PM

2016-10-29T21:26:52-04:00

Yup

Response by SGT Dario Diaz made Oct 29 at 2016 9:28 PM

2016-10-29T21:28:22-04:00

Than, he would have him for lunch.

Response by PO2 Frank Hess made Oct 29 at 2016 10:18 PM

2016-10-29T22:18:21-04:00

E9 would comply and settle the disagreement peacefully at a later date

Response by CPL Bobby Robbins made Oct 29 at 2016 10:59 PM

2016-10-29T22:59:13-04:00

Of course he would.respect the rank, not wanting to burst his little bubble.. . I would be rough on the O1 for a long time after.. I have known many O1s and oO2 that would not have survived without the leadership of a E6 much less a E9.. Most weren't too smart when I WAS IN 1970 / 1973

Response by Sgt John Dunworth made Oct 29 at 2016 11:56 PM

2016-10-29T23:56:40-04:00

I ran it on the similar situation. I respectfully ran him up on side and down the other because he was going to get my Marines hurt. The SGM and XO took care of the rest... There is a line that must be crossed only when needed but discipline must be regarded and up held...

Response by Cpl Dyshawn Bessant made Oct 30 at 2016 10:04 AM

2016-10-30T10:04:16-04:00

That butter bar needs a quick hip pocket class on the unspoken rules of ranks

Response by PO1 Dave Hayward made Oct 30 at 2016 10:15 AM

2016-10-30T10:15:37-04:00

Yeah but the Ensign would soon regret it.

Response by SP5 Cesar Samaniego made Oct 30 at 2016 10:24 AM

2016-10-30T10:24:55-04:00

He has too. Superior Officer by rank.

Response by Sgt Robert McLean made Oct 30 at 2016 12:09 PM

2016-10-30T12:09:37-04:00

Yes, at least from my experience in the Marines. However, I must say senior leadership in the Marines would never have to be corrected. The senior leadership set great examples and really exemplified what leaders are.

Response by MAJ Jim Ellis made Oct 30 at 2016 1:10 PM

2016-10-30T13:10:31-04:00

Out of respect for the rank not the person yes. With a respectable discussion on future request.

Response by SPC Ashlie Harris made Oct 30 at 2016 3:11 PM

2016-10-30T15:11:04-04:00

Yes

Response by SGT Johnny Jeannette Benavidez made Oct 30 at 2016 3:22 PM

2016-10-30T15:22:15-04:00

That O1 has lost his mind!! From my past experience I saw a fresh out of training 2lt get mad about comments being made and told the CSM to watch it and at ease, man did that CSM put him in his place and strike fear into that sorry piece of shit, mind you the 2lt fell behind in a platoon run. Then shortly after the battalion commander caught wind of the situation and dug into that butter bar like nobody's business it was by far the best run I had had!!

Response by SN Greg Dahlenburg made Oct 30 at 2016 4:16 PM

2016-10-30T16:16:41-04:00

YYe

Response by SN Greg Dahlenburg made Oct 30 at 2016 4:16 PM

2016-10-30T16:16:50-04:00

Yes

Response by MSG Dee Henderson made Oct 30 at 2016 4:26 PM

2016-10-30T16:26:36-04:00

Comply, afterwards tear him a new a$$!

Response by MSgt Al Schrantz made Oct 30 at 2016 5:16 PM

2016-10-30T17:16:13-04:00

Would of come to attention, not because the youngster had earned the respect, but the rank earned it. Than after the Lt was done talking would either let him have it in the traditional military style either on the spot, or if others were present in private. Senior NCO' s have long learned how to correct and direct a junior offices without disgracing either themselves or the officer.

Response by PO1 Larry Wilbee made Oct 30 at 2016 7:05 PM

2016-10-30T19:05:34-04:00

He would have to because of the enlisted - officer protocol but I'm sure that there would be something said in private !!

Response by SP5 Bill Malone made Oct 30 at 2016 7:11 PM

2016-10-30T19:11:00-04:00

I can only speak as to how my father handled a similar circumstance, as a senior master sargent in the Air Force. And that was to throw the lieutenant out of his office until he understud the meaning of seniority. And I do mean he threw him "physically" out.

Response by SN Mike Kelly made Oct 30 at 2016 7:39 PM

2016-10-30T19:39:26-04:00

Yes he has to comply,

Response by PO1 James Jones made Oct 30 at 2016 8:26 PM

2016-10-30T20:26:48-04:00

He should comply with the order but the XO and CO would be visited immediately after the disrespectful public humiliation!

Response by PFC Mike Hemeleski made Oct 30 at 2016 9:24 PM

2016-10-30T21:24:37-04:00

Yes it's called respect for the rank

Response by SGT William Revis made Oct 30 at 2016 10:09 PM

2016-10-30T22:09:53-04:00

Its the rank you respect not the man commissioned and warrant have that right non commissioned will comply.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2016 1:48 AM

2016-10-31T01:48:49-04:00

I use to work in the command group of my battalion and anytime any LTs or CPTs were getting chewed out by our CSM they stood at parade rest

Response by Keith Wellman made Oct 31 at 2016 5:51 AM

2016-10-31T05:51:38-04:00

Yup, the law is the law, let's hope second Louie is not a raving dick (been known to happen). Moving on...

Response by PO3 Kristine Devlin Murphy made Oct 31 at 2016 7:24 AM

2016-10-31T07:24:13-04:00

Not quite a baby-face LT story but still bears repeating.
Years ago I was at a gas station on a Naval Weapons Station. A few people were utilizing the gas pumps. One a Seabee from the neighboring NCBC, another was a fleet officer. Both were in uniform, the Ensign wearing his cover, the Seabee was not. The ensign called out "shipmate", the Seabee ignored him. The ensign again called out shipmate, again, the Seabee ignored him. Frustrated l, the ensign marched over and started reaming out the Seabee chief for not responding to his call of shipmate, then continued for not wearing his cover. The chief calmly finished pumping his gas, paid for his gas and drove away.
Moral of the story? Know who you are talking to. Call a Seabee shipmate? You will get ignored.

Response by CPT Arthur Fort made Oct 31 at 2016 9:48 AM

2016-10-31T09:48:55-04:00

He would comply then in one-on-one educate the young lieutenant.

Response by SPC Chris Spivey made Oct 31 at 2016 11:52 AM

2016-10-31T11:52:48-04:00

I doubt it would be taken very seriously.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2016 1:12 PM

2016-10-31T13:12:42-04:00

By rank a SGM has to comply. But a CSM holds a higher office. Anyone lower ranked than O-4 will not even try it with a CSM mainly because they're the right hand to their boss the O-5 or above. Not to mention Officers generally stay out of NCO business just as NCOs stay out of Officer business.

Response by CPL Ray Muña made Oct 31 at 2016 3:15 PM

2016-10-31T15:15:06-04:00

To answer the question, affirmative, an officer's ranks out ranks an enlisted rank. History goes back since the birth of the Army. However, the O1 with respect to the CSM, should and must realize that a CSM rank has more time in service with more experience while he or she was still in pampers socking their thumb. Given the authority and responsibilities does make make one always correct as an officer. E-5 thru E--9's are the check and balances of the army. These ranks are to ensure orders are given and followed. Regardless if agree or disagree. As an officer 1st, 2nd Lt or Cpt. Realize that a MSGT 1st Sgt, SM, or CSM, has more experience and at times advice and correct your decisions. (So that you can look good).

Response by PFC Ray Price made Oct 31 at 2016 3:53 PM

2016-10-31T15:53:03-04:00

Yes, rank is rank, chain of comand

Response by SP5 John Rice made Oct 31 at 2016 6:18 PM

2016-10-31T18:18:34-04:00

The E9 would stand at attention and then blast the O1 from here to Timbuktu and back. There is not an O4 and above alive that would not b
thoroughly back the SGM.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2016 7:31 PM

2016-10-31T19:31:52-04:00

Yes!

Response by Sgt Ely Kalilikane made Oct 31 at 2016 7:53 PM

2016-10-31T19:53:44-04:00

Don't think so in small group, to save face of his unit yes.

Response by SR Don Wolfe made Oct 31 at 2016 8:00 PM

2016-10-31T20:00:20-04:00

I think so BUT, the upper brass would hear of it post haste! And the next liberty ?????????

Response by SP5 Micah Ramsdell made Oct 31 at 2016 9:24 PM

2016-10-31T21:24:55-04:00

Yed

Response by SMSgt Patrick Rushing made Oct 31 at 2016 9:45 PM

2016-10-31T21:45:56-04:00

Only at first... but afterward, watch out!

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2016 2:15 AM

2016-11-01T02:15:43-04:00

2d lt would hate his life

Response by SN Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2016 4:49 AM

2016-11-01T04:49:18-04:00

Oh my lord I seriously suspect all hell would break loose

Response by SPC Allen Lagrow made Nov 1 at 2016 6:35 AM

2016-11-01T06:35:48-04:00

The LT may get skull fucked

Response by PV2 Tavarez Richardson made Nov 1 at 2016 6:57 AM

2016-11-01T06:57:19-04:00

CSM would probably comply, but that butterbar would get his ass reamed by that Battalion or Brigade XO and CO.. And that would probably be a death blow to his career for screwing with a guy that has 26 years in service, considering he probably has 2 years in as a 2LT..

Response by SSG Charles Slane made Nov 1 at 2016 6:59 AM

2016-11-01T06:59:06-04:00

I did my last 7 years at ft.benning ga with the 36th engineer group. The only time we saw our CSM was on Thursday's in the motor pool and at this he had his head so far up battalion commander ass he carried a bottle of Windex so he could clean battalion commander's stomach off so he could he see where he was going. Now I did have few good CSM in my career.

Response by MAJ Ty Manns made Nov 1 at 2016 7:14 AM

2016-11-01T07:14:36-04:00

Yes. This actually happened to me when I was a young platoon leader. The Bn CSM called for my PSG to come to a meeting when my training meeting was going in. I sent word back by the CQ runner to let the CSM know he would be there when my training meeting was over (and since my training meeting was on the CO's training calendar I was obligated to conduct it); 10 mins later the Bn CSM kicks in my platoon room door, looks at me, points to my PSG and tells him to "collect his shit and get to his office now!" Then he turns to me and starts to tell me that When he calls for his PSGs I don't stop SFC ****** from coming, and- well that's where I stopped him. I was furious. I leaped up and even today can't remember all the things that came out of my mouth. I do however remember the very first words and they were "shut the fuck up and come to the position of attention!" At first he refused, but I gave him an ultimatum... do it or I call the MPs and file an official charge of disrespect and disobeying a lawful order. He did and I ripped into him for a good 2/3 mins. I made him announce in front of my PSG and SLs that he understood that I was an officer, that I outranked him and that he was wrong for disrespecting me. He was pissed, but what he didn't know about me was I had spend nearly 8 years enlisted so I wasn't a new, green LT and had witnessed the treatment CSMs gave LTs in the pass. Yeah, of course he ran his candy ass to BC, my CO and I were in his office 20 mins later, but when I explained what went down the BC yelled at both of us for a few mins and send us packing.

Response by CPL David Newsome made Nov 1 at 2016 7:47 AM

2016-11-01T07:47:54-04:00

Yes, but later on the 2nd Lt. would get his ass chewed out by his CO

Response by LCpl Harry Rice made Nov 1 at 2016 11:33 AM

2016-11-01T11:33:15-04:00

Yes the E9 would comply but believe it will not end there

Response by SP5 Michael Dalton made Nov 1 at 2016 1:02 PM

2016-11-01T13:02:55-04:00

My question is what would happen if an LT.tried putting the SMA at attention, that my brothers and sisters in arms would be a show

Response by PO3 Michelle LaMariana made Nov 1 at 2016 3:57 PM

2016-11-01T15:57:14-04:00

Yes - out of military respect, chain of command....but it would be brought to the 01 attention afterwards!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2016 4:15 PM

2016-11-01T16:15:38-04:00

He would obey the order but I'm sure there would be hell to pay from his BN Commander lol

Response by MSgt Vahan Aslanzadeh made Nov 1 at 2016 4:58 PM

2016-11-01T16:58:27-04:00

Yes

Response by PO2 Gordon Norris made Nov 1 at 2016 6:26 PM

2016-11-01T18:26:48-04:00

I heard of an old school E-9 was stopped by an O-2 and told the MC "on Governors Island we render and return salutes with pride". The MC reached in his pocket, pulled out a dime and tossed it to him, "call your mother and tell her you talked to a real sailor". The officer just stood and watched him walk away. The person who told me about this was a new fireman at the time, was walking with the MC, said he was shaking in his boots not knowing if he should salute or keep walking like the MC.

Response by SGT Ken Trimmer made Nov 1 at 2016 8:18 PM

2016-11-01T20:18:56-04:00

O1 would be better off brown nosing just about any NCO

Response by PO3 Larry Robbins made Nov 1 at 2016 9:27 PM

2016-11-01T21:27:16-04:00

Sure the E9 needs to comply, but life would be hell for the LT after that.

Response by Capt Charlie Neely made Nov 1 at 2016 9:38 PM

2016-11-01T21:38:20-04:00

Unofficer Ike to pull rank with other staff ncos and officers over an argument. The CSM would be fired up and definitely not come to attention.

Response by PO3 Norman Counts made Nov 1 at 2016 10:31 PM

2016-11-01T22:31:25-04:00

I never got to see a Junior Officer face off with a E-9 but I did witness a LCDR face off(lmao) with a CWO-3. It was glorious, I have never seen a man before with his tail so convincingly between his legs.

Response by Cpl Jonathan Bledsoe made Nov 1 at 2016 10:34 PM

2016-11-01T22:34:35-04:00

My csm was the most genialy terrifying man I have ever met. IMMIGRATED from south America to join the u.s.military, was sent to the Marines. IF a lewy tried to lock him on, I swear it would have dissolved into goo from THE LOOK, and then been taken to the tree line. Repeatedly.

Response by PO1 Jason O'Keefe made Nov 2 at 2016 12:28 AM

2016-11-02T00:28:50-04:00

2Lt would be left standing peeing in his//ers pants!!

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Nov 2 at 2016 12:29 AM

2016-11-02T00:29:58-04:00

The answer would be Yes, but I would not want to be that O-1 when they were alone behind closed doors later.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2016 1:41 AM

2016-11-02T01:41:10-04:00

What jo would be stupid enough to do that? The hypothetical is funny but I couldn't see it happening

Response by A1C Ray Lawrence made Nov 2 at 2016 1:41 AM

2016-11-02T01:41:59-04:00

No he would not and the little 2lt would be shoveling rubber dogshit to fly to Hong kong.

Response by Jc Sisson made Nov 2 at 2016 2:04 AM

2016-11-02T02:04:08-04:00

He might be pretty cheesed, but he would comply.

Response by SP5 Scot Alan made Nov 2 at 2016 7:35 AM

2016-11-02T07:35:44-04:00

Probably so, but Lt better be squared away with whatever his case is. Otherwise Top is going to eat that Lt for lunch.

Response by PO1 Jess Ryska made Nov 2 at 2016 10:50 AM

2016-11-02T10:50:02-04:00

He would, but it would be the last time it ever happened! The boot ENS/2LT would then have a come to Jesus meeting on Pecking order, respect, and who makes it possible for him to get promoted!

Response by SPC Shawn Williams made Nov 2 at 2016 11:41 AM

2016-11-02T11:41:01-04:00

I feel that he would do the same thing that i have read in most of the responses. He would comply with the first time and then ask the officer to step into his office for a conversation. Now saying that, how the officer's response must be considered. The situation can go either North or South

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2016 12:39 PM

2016-11-02T12:39:44-04:00

Only once!!! That 01 would have a very bad day!!!

Response by CPO Mike Turner made Nov 2 at 2016 1:23 PM

2016-11-02T13:23:00-04:00

An O2 tried it on me in the ward room. After I got through chewing him out a new asshole, the Skipper had some enlightenment for him also.

Response by PO1 Jose Mercado made Nov 2 at 2016 2:52 PM

2016-11-02T14:52:07-04:00

Indeed he would out of respect, but, ohh boyyy!! He would learn a lesson afterwards that would most definetly shape him/her into becoming a great officer.

Response by SMSgt Jesse Rocha made Nov 2 at 2016 4:39 PM

2016-11-02T16:39:20-04:00

Comply

Response by SPC Julius Stacy made Nov 2 at 2016 7:43 PM

2016-11-02T19:43:30-04:00

He would but also not like it

Response by SGT Michael Dibble made Nov 2 at 2016 8:55 PM

2016-11-02T20:55:14-04:00

Yes unf

Response by PFC Brian Grogan made Nov 3 at 2016 4:43 AM

2016-11-03T04:43:28-04:00

Under UCMJ he would have to but there would Def be some major issues happening, dietary first I don't know any 2nd LT''s that would have the balks to do it but if they did I think they would have their assess handed to then and I dint know any enlisted men that would day they saw anything

Response by MCPO Darnell Eschete made Nov 3 at 2016 7:18 AM

2016-11-03T07:18:53-04:00

Yes. The battle would relocate behind a closed door. E9 would win and the LT would be enlightened.

Response by SA Ron Ellis made Nov 3 at 2016 12:38 PM

2016-11-03T12:38:16-04:00

Yes

Response by LTC Carlos Llarena made Nov 3 at 2016 2:52 PM

2016-11-03T14:52:55-04:00

If he is a professional, he will. I recall as a young lieutenant getting a ration of you know what from a CW4. I respectfully reminded him that my commission was signed by the POTUS and that his was signed by the Sec Army. I further told him that as a novice, all helpful advice is welcome but that our individual positions in the military hierarchy must be respected, recognized and for the sake of unit cohesion, must be shared with those in lower grades than ours. To his credit he said, Well said. I think we can work together. We became very close and he taught me a ton. He and my first assignment 1st Sgt guided me through a lot. I remember when I was commissioned and went to my first posting. Arrived on a Friday and the CO told me to get squared away and meet on the parade field the next day. At the parade field, he introduced me to my platoon SGT, a ton of rows of ribbons with a blue one with five stars on top. He saluted me and said, "Lead me sir". I said, "SGT, Your job is to stay one step to my left and one step to my rear. When you see me doing something wrong or stupid, yell GAS. He leaned over and said, "Sir, we's gonna get along just fine. He was the best thing that happened to me. He taught me so much while staying in the background with off line discussions afterward. I was so lucky.

Response by PO2 Michael Hitchcock made Nov 3 at 2016 8:52 PM

2016-11-03T20:52:40-04:00

No, because "what does the Lieutenant know". A chief knows! That Lieutenant is there to learn.

Response by SFC Warren Halsey made Nov 3 at 2016 11:53 PM

2016-11-03T23:53:52-04:00

Professional answer- Comply with this cherry officer because as Sr. NCO's it's our DUTY to teach lieutenants how to become effective leaders, and why the NCO/CPO is the backbone of the uniformed service's.

REAL WORD ANSWER/Response-In whatever terms of expression you decide, it's now time to "school" this butter bar on topics such as Rank Vs Authority; Pride and Professionalism Vs a virgin ego; Using "creative language " explain that the stripes you are wearing are embedded into your personality, and that it took you longer to earn them than the Cherry officer has time on the planet. Then, as the Echo-9, you speak with all the NCO's in the unit and explain the incident. More than likely, the end result, this cherry officer will not have any enlisted person from E-1 up respecting, trusting him, or supporting him. Lastly, if none of the above work, point blank advise the little $hit bird that in a few months you'll have made a major transition, while this dirt-bag officer will have to wallow around in his own personal $hit he just created by trying to twist the age old military phenomenon of confusing rank with authority, and who really would give a good #uck that a SGM/CSM/MCPO/CMSGT didn't snap- to for some punk-a$$, wet behind the ear's- breast milk-on the breath butter bar. Who would really give a #uck! The E9 more than likely will have between 21-30 years of service. The only thing that may possibly be said by senior ranking officers, is that maybe the E-9 was a little " too hard, or too graphic" with the butter-bar, and it might create an insecurity complex for him. Big deal!

Response by MAJ Jim Cook made Nov 4 at 2016 12:28 PM

2016-11-04T12:28:21-04:00

The E9 bring the professional that he or she should be would comply, right or wrong the 2Lt is a commissioned Officier and does out rank the E-9. I would then expect the E-9 to address the situation in a professional manner as to not cause undo embassment to him or her self or the 2Lt.

Response by SFC Jeffery Lee made Nov 4 at 2016 2:15 PM

2016-11-04T14:15:52-04:00

Of course by Army Regulation, and the Army standard that SGM/CSM always stressing to uphold, he/she should come to Attention, but you can bet your bottom dollars, that will be the last time that particular 01 losses his/her mind!!

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2016 2:32 PM

2016-11-04T14:32:50-04:00

Got to watch this happen at nsa bahrain, right in the middle of the spine. That cmc stopped so damn fast i halted too (was walking behind him) for a hot second i thought i was in trouble too!!!

Response by SCPO Leonard White made Nov 4 at 2016 3:11 PM

2016-11-04T15:11:52-04:00

Yes, the ensign would pay. He would never make that mistake again.

Response by CPT James Willis made Nov 4 at 2016 9:53 PM

2016-11-04T21:53:11-04:00

The E9 from a professional standpoint and Army Regulations would be compelled to comply with the order.

Response by SPC James Hopkins made Nov 5 at 2016 4:00 AM

2016-11-05T04:00:54-04:00

He has to....but the 03 will have his ass later for the sheer disrespect to a senior enlisted

Response by SP5 Jason Davis made Nov 5 at 2016 10:45 AM

2016-11-05T10:45:50-04:00

He would have to comply, but his captain is going to pay for it, shit roles down hill

Response by SFC Benjamin Nelson made Nov 5 at 2016 1:18 PM

2016-11-05T13:18:32-04:00

Yeah but...

Response by Sgt Lucas Shaffer made Nov 5 at 2016 1:47 PM

2016-11-05T13:47:31-04:00

He has to weather anyone likes it or not

Response by AN Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2016 4:08 PM

2016-11-05T16:08:02-04:00

I had an ensign tell my cmc to get to attention and cmc complied but shortly after wards the CO walked over told the cmc to carry on and proceed to destroy the 0-1. One thing you do not do in the Navy is mess with a cos cmc especially when they like them.

Response by PO3 Donna Tucker made Nov 5 at 2016 6:27 PM

2016-11-05T18:27:04-04:00

WOW. Who is that fresh and stupid? #Whenbutterbarsscrewup

Response by PO3 Donna Tucker made Nov 5 at 2016 6:34 PM

2016-11-05T18:34:49-04:00

I've seen ignorance or arrogance but that level of disrespect towards an E-9? Nope. I will watch tho, from a safe distance!

Response by Sgt Charles Whitt made Nov 5 at 2016 10:59 PM

2016-11-05T22:59:25-04:00

2lt would lose

Response by SGT Richard Anderson made Nov 6 at 2016 12:16 AM

2016-11-06T00:16:47-04:00

Yes, as a young specialist at Ft. Ord, CA, a young O1 jumped on my battalion CSM and a group of 1SG. That evening, I was on staff duty at the battalion hq and the battalion commander called the young 01 into his office and ate him alive.

Response by Sgt Adam Johnson made Nov 6 at 2016 1:30 AM

2016-11-06T01:30:42-04:00

yes

Response by 1SG Bill Yandall made Nov 6 at 2016 2:27 PM

2016-11-06T14:27:56-05:00

It would be set day for the Lt

Response by PO2 James Blockston made Nov 6 at 2016 5:35 PM

2016-11-06T17:35:22-05:00

He should. I once saw a master chief GM choke the shit out of a lieutenant jg

Response by MSG Brian McDow made Nov 15 at 2016 10:05 AM

2016-11-15T10:05:19-05:00

it depends on the Situation. I have chewed on a couple of Lt´s necks and set them straight as an E-7. The bars on the shoulders are there to learn from their Senior NCO´s. I guess I pissed off a couple of officers because I operarted as a Platoon Sergeant for 10 years without a Platoon Leader.

Response by 1SG Charles Simpson made Jan 6 at 2017 7:49 AM

2017-01-06T07:49:48-05:00

Of course the E9 would be required to obey the order. No one id bound to obey any illegal order but a Second Lieutenant ordering Sergeant Major to attention is not an illegal order. Commissioned officers are commissioned by the Congress while Noncommissioned officers are promoted by the respective branches of service to serve in positions of authority over other enlisted members of lower grades only. Noncommissioned officers have no law enforcement over subordinates whereas commissioned offers do have such authority.

Response by SrA Robert Hubbard made Jan 14 at 2017 5:44 AM

2017-01-14T05:44:47-05:00

Yes, he would be required to, but it would be under protest most likely if they were arguing

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2017 9:18 PM

2017-01-19T21:18:53-05:00

From what Ive seen, back at my AIT at Ft Gordon, it wasnt really with an E9 and a 2lt, but it was an officer and the senior NCO, if anything after the NCO saluted and everything, the officer was the one standing in parade rest while talking with the NCO.
So yes, even though it is under the oath of enlistment, an NCO should render a salute to an officer no matter what, but in the end, the NCO (whether its an E-5 or E-9) has more experience than a new officer (who only got commissioned through the cadet program, or ROTC, or any officer school) and that officer should still respect the NCO.

Response by SGM Riki Hawk made Feb 18 at 2017 11:29 AM

2017-02-18T11:29:39-05:00

Yes. Does it happen? There are many variables to ensure it does not happen. But every good leader is a good follower. One thing I've done since I was a SGT was developed a relationship with my LT. They were a part of our team and he/she was our leader. They established trust and respect for me and my work, and confided in me as appropriate regarding military issues. Moving forward as a PSG/ 1SG, I did the same thing and met with my LTs. They obviously respected my rank and after time, the intent was to respect me as a person and vice versa. I mentored them because I knew I somehow had a role molding this young officer. I wanted them to succeed because I wanted all my Soldiers to succeed. I was only "locked up" once in my military career as a foolish SPC. But other then that- it won't happen. I know my role and a as a leader, we also have to follow giving mentorship and praise both publicly and in private. Hooah!

Response by SCPO Kenneth Myers made Feb 23 at 2017 2:13 PM

2017-02-23T14:13:25-05:00

I would at the time if young troops were around. But behind closed doors that O1 would get slaughtered.

Response by SrA Mark Freeman made Apr 11 at 2017 1:09 AM

2017-04-11T01:09:23-04:00

As an E4 SF, our former chief, at the time our Command Chief, was ordered by a 2LT to salute him while assisting at base entry...Command CMSGT says, "I've had these stripes longer than you've been in the Air Force"....guess who drove off, tail tucked between their legs? Lol

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2017 11:43 PM

2017-06-05T23:43:09-04:00

Absolutely not. Sure, he technically should but a Master Guns couldn't give two fucks about anything really and a SgtMaj would probably just lose his shot and make the Lt cry or something

Response by PVT Mike Antrim made Jun 16 at 2017 4:08 PM

2017-06-16T16:08:50-04:00

Djdjdjsjsdf. Sisjdjfkdjehsb ajdhbdkjsd

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 16 at 2017 4:34 PM

2017-08-16T16:34:27-04:00

I had a brand new 2LT in a Rapid deploying task force as my OIC when I was a SGT at FT. Hood. There was an empty office next to the Battalion Command Group and she took it. She told the Battalion CSM to take her trash out on day one. The CSM took her trash out at the end of day one. Day two I saw her with a cardboard box moving her office downstairs and started crying in front of our Soldiers...

Response by SFC Steven Keele made Oct 20 at 2017 10:16 AM

2017-10-20T10:16:58-04:00

I remember in Korea we had a 1st Lieutenant who was our commander while the commander was on leave. We were at PT formation when the CSM wanted to talk to the troops. The CSM was talking and out of nowhere the LT tells him to hurry up we needed to do our PT. There was silence. CSM raised his finger to say just a minute and continued to talk. The Battalion Commander who was present grabbed the LT and took him across the field and began tearing into him. Though the CSM was talking it was hard not to hear the BC ripping the LT. It was great time and hard to listen to the CSM after that.

Response by PO1 Eric Salas made Jan 6 at 2018 12:26 AM

2018-01-06T00:26:47-05:00

Definitely if it was in front of junior enlisted. He’s setting an example. In private? Probly not.

Response by PFC John Siebelink made May 24 at 2018 2:14 AM

2018-05-24T02:14:45-04:00

Not an LT story, but at Edson Range ten years ago immediately after earning the title of Marine, the Colonel in charge of Weapons Field Training Battalion was giving us a little rundown on a tradition of recognizing the conpany high shooter. He told us the story of how things worked when the current Btn SgtMajor was at boot camp and how he recently recommended that said tradition be brought back. The colonel told us, "I am not a smart man, so when a Sergeant Major with 30 years of experience says something, I listen!" Even at that high rank the colonel taught us all about the immense respect that SNCOs deserve even from high-ranking officers, and it is something I never forgot. Every Marine SNCO ive ever met would treat any fresh butter bar with the highest respect, but at the same time every butter bar I ever met--and MOS school was at Camp Johnson so it sas filled with new Basic School grads--ALWAYS treated our Sergeant Major and Master Gunnery Sergeants with respect.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2019 5:43 PM

2019-03-17T17:43:47-04:00

The LT needs to learn his place, I’ve LT’s do stupid shit like this only to get the CSM’s CDR to tear the LT a new one. If the CSM is like the pathetic example of the one with the hair grooming standards from hell. Have at it LT. Unfortunately many don’t understand the CSM’s relation and position in units as well as his authority and who he “only” reports too.

Response by SPC Merle Jantz made May 29 at 2020 2:10 PM

2020-05-29T14:10:41-04:00

Had a buddy, E-3 at the time, who worked in the biomedical equipment shop with a CWO at Ft. Campbell. Worked side by side all day long. So one day, these two brand-new Screaming Eagle butterbars come into the shop for something, and the first thing one of them does is start screaming at my buddy, who is quietly working, saying "When a superior officer enters the room, you come to goddam attention!!" Then they look over at the Chief, who's old enough to be their dad, and said "Chief, correct your man!" Chief just looked at him for a long time and said "Son, I hope whatever you came here for isn't a rush job, because you just made the bottom of the list."

Response by MAJ Joe Dempsey made May 30 at 2020 1:26 AM

2020-05-30T01:26:56-04:00

A smart gold bar seeks the advice of his senior NCOs. I’m not saying I am smart but that is what I did and it paid off. It was my job to make decisions and give orders, it was their job to make sure I had the proper information and suggestions to do mine. Give and get respect because we all want the same thing,

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2020 3:10 PM

2020-05-31T15:10:58-04:00

I’ve never seen a Lt correct anyone E6 SSGT (E6) and above.

What I have observed is senior officers setting the tone for new officers.

I was a/the Sgt Battalion S2 just down the hall from the CO. We would periodically have new officers check in and the first person they met was the CO. Suffice it that you could hear a rumbling from down the hall and a few minutes later, the young officer would walk in and humbly check in.

The CO’s message was don’t mess with my Staff NCOs and NCOs.

The Col was a fair and firm leader who knew how to get the most out of his leadership team. If you were one of those Staff NCOs or NCOs, you’d better be locked in as well.

Final note was the CO used those new fresh from OCS officers to run the remedial PT program if you fell out of his battalion runs. Suffice it that those freaking Lts were gazelles and got their payback!

Response by LTC Walter Lott made Jun 1 at 2020 2:38 AM

2020-06-01T02:38:40-04:00

Where I was a butter bar, most of my fellow lieutenants knew better than to show disrespect to a SGM. Except one.

This ‘brain surgeon’ complained that the gates of the motor pool weren’t opened wide enough for him to drive his POV through.

The E9 present said, “Sir, you could drive a fucking deuce and a half though that gate!”

And the LT responded “I’m a Lieutenant and you’re only a serg...”

He never got a chance to finish the sentence. I’ve never heard the word ‘fuck’ and the word ‘sir’ used in conjunction with one another as I had then.

Response by LCpl Larry Morgan made Jun 1 at 2020 5:15 PM

2020-06-01T17:15:33-04:00

Well, in the Corps, the E9 would come to attention.

Response by CPT Mark Andrews made Aug 11 at 2020 11:34 PM

2020-08-11T23:34:14-04:00

If my 0-1 or 0-2 disrespected my 1SG or SGM, that Lt would be moping floors and taking orders from privates. Do not fuck with my Top ncos. That being said, respect goes a very long way.
Just don’t be the new Lt disrespecting top Ncos.

No go