Would requiring Officers to have enlisted time (1-4 years Active, Reserve or Guard) improve leadership skills in a meaningful way?

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 15:41:51 -0500

It seems like a lot of enlisted soldiers feel that that time as an enlisted soldier would help Officers become more effective leaders.

Of those of you that share this opinion, what do you think about the Simultaneous Membership Program (SMP) for Cadets? I did almost 3 years of SMP prior to commissioning and I feel that this set me up ahead of my peers - but I also fully recognize this is very different from being an enlisted and Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) qualified soldier.

As Cadets, we were certainly treated differently by the lower enlisted, NCOs and Officers. Due to this, I feel SMP doesn't have the same effect as being MOS qualified enlisted soldier. Training us was always a second thought, which means we went through all the same suck but didn't always get the same training value (which is what I wanted out of SMP).

Would love to hear some from NCOs that have experience working with Cadets/LT's that went through SMP.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Feb 10 at 2021 4:39 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 16:39:31 -0500

It could be helpful, for O's to be on the other side, to see what orders really look like, before they learn to issue them.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Feb 10 at 2021 4:41 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 16:41:08 -0500

It has potential but the myth that all prior enlisted Officers are the best Officers is just that. I served with plenty of Prior Enlisted Officers and some of them were outstanding while others were politicians who liked the sound of their own voice. Labeling something as a certainty just creates unrealistic expectation. Lack of enlisted time is not what makes ineffective officers. There is more to it than that.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Feb 10 at 2021 5:01 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 17:01:35 -0500

I have served with ring knockers, other military schools ROTC, regular OCS and Mavericks, there are good and bad officers in all of them. I believe that leadership requires a combination of empathy and discipline that are almost impossible to train. You can give that soldier the tools to do the job, but it is harder to train to make men follow you effectively.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2021 5:03 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 17:03:05 -0500

I’m a prior service officer with 8 years of enlisted time (6 years active and 2 as a SMP cadet)

I feel that my enlisted service has made me a better leader because my leadership style is already set in place (I’m just tweaking it) while the average due course 2LT is developing their leadership style.

That being said, enlisted service doesn’t inherently make one officer material. Some of the best officers I’ve served with were right out of ROTC and the worst officer I served with was a prior E-6 who wanted to be an NCO drawing Officer pay instead of being a Platoon leader. He STAYED in NCO business, to the point that he demanded to be added to the NCO group chat. We added him.....and then made another one with just us lol.

I’m happy I had to serve under him because that experience influenced me. I promised myself that when I got my commission I would be the officer that respected “NCO business” by leading through my NCOs.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2021 5:03 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 17:03:36 -0500

This one depends on the person, having worked with both types of officers over the years. Sometimes the prior experience can hinder an NCO’s ability to do their job when an Officer wants to be in that lane instead of their own. Then sometimes it works out having an Officer with that knowledge by helping themselves and others to be better leaders in the long run. It boils down the individual parties involved and the issue/training on hand that you are dealing with at any given time. There is no cookie cutter answer for this because every troop is different, just like every “Officer” you meet won’t be the same.
As far as training goes, there are STPs for every MOS out there if you want to learn about them and most of the time a good NCO will take the time to include you in on the training if you show an interest.
As far as being an effective leader, have you asked your team what they need from you as a leader? When the counseling’s are done as they should be you can ask that question- “What do you need from me to assist you in being a better leader” or make a statement of “This is what I will be doing for you so that you excel”.
Sometimes it’s not “extra” training an Officer needs to be a better leader but the ability to connect to the individuals they are leading. Good luck in your endeavors!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2021 5:05 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 17:05:22 -0500

The SMP program is great in theory but it is not used correctly. I would always get upset if I found a cadet sweeping. Cadets are senior to enlisted but no one really knows that. When it comes to being prior service I don't think it should be required. It helps but it can hurt. I was an SSG before I commissioned. It has helped me but often I am out performed by another young officer. I don't think prior service officer are always at the top. It is another asset that makes us better but not the best.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Feb 10 at 2021 5:24 PM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 17:24:51 -0500

It certainly wouldn't hurt any potential officer to have served a period of time as Enlisted. Whether it would ultimately prove beneficial or make for "better" officers remains to be seen. I've had the privilege of working with some truly outstanding non-prior and prior service officers. I've also worked with a few of both types I wouldn't cross the room to piss on 'em if they were on fire.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2021 5:30 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 17:30:03 -0500

Maybe. I think mentoring from leaders with demonstrated humility would go much further.

Response by SGT Mark Halmrast made Feb 10 at 2021 5:31 PM

SGT Mark Halmrast — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 17:31:32 -0500

Leadership is a unit thing.

I wonder: what separates units with excellent leadership (vertically, at the officer and NCO levels...and horizontally, across unit roles) from the rest?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 10 at 2021 5:47 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 17:47:45 -0500

You ask some odd questions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2021 6:00 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 18:00:28 -0500

Leadership depends on the person. There was a 2LT I had who was the AS2 - prior enlisted as a medic and got branched to engineer when he went officer. He was honestly useless and not a great leader. I don't know what he did as enlisted but he was just an epic douche. He acted like he was better than me because he went officer. My 2LT OIC, who made CPT by the time she left the S2, was much better than he as a leader. She came in brand new and she admitted she knew nothing and leaned on me to guide her, which I did.

I think to be an effective leader, people need an effective leader to learn from.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2021 6:38 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 18:38:51 -0500

They can spend four solid years learning leadership and followership day in and day out at a service academy, and how many officers of any rank would we still call dipshits. Even a four-year service academy can’t guarantee improved leadership.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2021 7:06 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 19:06:46 -0500

The best officers I’ve had have been ncos first. Other than 1 who was absolutely fantastic

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Feb 10 at 2021 7:12 PM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 19:12:54 -0500

A leader's style and techniques are dependent upon his entire life experience and the examples he observes in how others in positions of responsibility exert their leadership. You can be taught the principles and techniques but all the book subjects are just raw material. Observing other leader's methods is probably of more value as you get to see the good and bad examples, but in the end it comes to your individual judgement of the most effective manner in dealing with that one individual or group

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2021 9:47 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Feb 2021 21:47:09 -0500

Loaded question... what makes a great NCO does not make a great Officer. One is there to mold the fighting force while the other is there to plan and develop the mission. I decided to not go OCS because I truly enjoy training up the Joe's. I feel that the only benefit would be that an Officer that was once enlisted knows what the NCOs role is, and just stays out of the way.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Feb 11 at 2021 9:04 AM

MAJ Javier Rivera — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 09:04:28 -0500

Speaking from experience. It could help to some extend to some degree, but not necessarily a revolutionary fix. just some sort of a microscopic band-aid.

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Feb 11 at 2021 9:06 AM

SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 09:06:39 -0500

I thought so. I had a B.A. when I enlisted, and I planned to commission after my first term having gained valuable experience on that side. Instead, I extended once to give myself enough time to either get the G2G ADO or not. I ended up not going that route, and also became extremely disillusioned with the Army. I decided to get out. It's possible that requiring Enlisted time would lead to a shortage of Officers.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Feb 11 at 2021 11:51 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 11:51:45 -0500

Sir,
I am not familiar with SMP. But here is what I would say...

Merely spending enlisted time is not, in and of itself, going to do a lot for an Officer's leadership. Yes, it MAY help them empathize some, but any good leader will already be doing that. Being MOS-Q also isn't a big deal. Your job as an Officer is not to know how to crank the widget handle and make the superfluxer flux. It is to know that we need more flux and tell the Soldier to give it to you. Sure, the more technical knowledge you have, the better decisions you can make. But (usually) as a PL, you have more than one specialty in your PLT (some of the combat arms are less true - but in those MOSs, usually the Officer MOS-Q is very similar to enlisted MOS-Q). So even being MOS-Q is only going to help some of the time.

That being said, having and understanding of what enlisted life is like (to include things like supporting a family on E1 pay) IS exceptionally helpful for a leader at any level, to include enlisted leaders. You don't have to BE enlisted to gain that understanding, you can do it by asking questions and LISTENING. Spending time as enlisted, especially starting as an E1, can give you a deeper, more meaningful, more tangible relation to the experiences of your current Soldiers, but it is not the only way to do it.

Additionally, Mustangs occasionally fall into the "this is how I did it, so this is how you will do it" and the "I don't see what the big deal is, it was way worse when I was a PVT" traps. These thoughts and attitudes ignore the shifting social environment, battlefield, and even TTPs that occur over time. (The worst PL I ever had was prior service; she consistently told me that she used to be an NCO (got promoted to SGT a month before she went to OCS) and therefore she knew what my job as a PSG was and how to do it.)

To sum up: Mustangs have definite advantages in leadership of enlisted, if they are good leaders. However they can just as easily use that experience improperly and use it to be WORSE leaders. At the end of the day, a good leader will use all of their resources and tools to provide the best leadership they can.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 1:19 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:19:38 -0500

Maturity is different for everyone. I’ve worked with some due course officers who ran circles around prior service officers. It all comes down to the individual. Mandating prior service is going to put officers into a much higher age group than they already are. At 38, most officers are just pinning LTC, and pinning COL at 44! I’ve seen enlisted Soldiers make SGM in 14-18 years. If they joined at 18, they would only be 32-36 years old? At what age/experience do we consider NCOs ready? On a side note, you shouldn’t use the word “lower enlisted”, it’s junior enlisted. The term “lower” is no longer correct.

Response by SN Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 1:48 PM

SN Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 13:48:34 -0500

Some of us would have loved to see officers in Delta working parties or waxing decks and working the flight deck in any weather condition. That would obviously give them a different perspective when they acted like gods hovering over us with the easy ability to restrict liberty on a whim.

Response by LT Richard White made Feb 11 at 2021 6:32 PM

LT Richard White — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 18:32:26 -0500

As an enlisted before flight school, it helped me not make as ass out of myself after I was commissioned. It also taught me respect for the people that worked under me. I do believe it made me a better officer.

Response by 1SG Joseph Dartey made Feb 11 at 2021 9:10 PM

1SG Joseph Dartey — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:10:31 -0500

LT, I don't mean any disrespect or unprofessional by what I am going to say, so please read thoroughly before commenting. Most officers coming out of ROTC, West Point, OCS don't know jack shit. You have the book knowledge, but NO HANDS ON EXPERIENCE! Some have even told me "I am an officer and I'm in charge." As a maintenance NCO, the way I have dealt with new 2LTs is 1) show them around where ever we were and explain our operation and mission, 2) sit down and talk with them to find out exactly how much knowledge and experience they had, 3) tell them what they could/can expect from me and what I expected of them, 4) ask what they expected from me, 5) show them their office, 6) respectfully tell them that I was going to assign them to my most senior mechanic so they could get the experience and knowledge (hands dirty) of what the mechanics had to do, 7) and if I needed their assistance for anything, I would get them/seek their advice. 99.9% of the time this worked very well, with the .01% being transferred because he f***** up at a BC maintenance meeting and most of the officers always thanked me for teaching them the ins and out of a maintenance facility and the experience the gained. I always left my unit feeling very good about the job and soldiers I had associated with. At my retirement ceremony in 98, the last thing I said to the officers was, "Remember, listen to your NCOs and treat your soldier with respect, dignity, and courtesy (chew ass in private and praise in public) because they can make you smell like a bouquet of roses or a big pile of shit."

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 9:18 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:18:00 -0500

Absolutely.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2021 9:29 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:29:34 -0500

Prior Marine Corps NCO, current Army Captain. Does it help? Yes. Does it make you a better leader? Depends what kind of leader you are. What makes the Army so great is the diversity of ideas and backgrounds (think ROTC, OCS, West Point) that ensure everyone thinks a little differently, which makes us better. If you think it helps, then it does to you. Just think though that you don’t need to ever have been a programmer to be the CEO of a tech company.

Response by CDR Grant Graessle made Feb 13 at 2021 10:39 AM

CDR Grant Graessle — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:39:56 -0500

As a former commanding officer, the best wardrooms that served that served together were a blend of all the different sources: academy, ROTC, OCS, etc. Being prior enlisted helped some, but jaded others. There is no "one-size-fits-all" answer.

Response by CSM Bob Stanek made Feb 14 at 2021 12:03 PM

CSM Bob Stanek — Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:03:30 -0500

I think its a good question, but I would caution you from "pigeon-holing" all officers into a single category. Some officers have enough maturity when they commission to not need the development that often comes with serving time as an SMP or cadet. Others need more "spicing up and experience with learning" in their career before they are ready to take the step of becoming a commissioned officer. Maturity, confidence and personal hubris all have an effect on whether a soldier is ready for a commissioned officer position. Hell, many cadets coming directly out of West Point need added maturity before they are truly ready to lead soldiers. So even the best programs don't generate the ideal officer. Same goes true on the NCO side of the house as well.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2021 12:54 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Feb 2021 12:54:28 -0500

I don't think it would change anything. I've seen great prior service officers but I've also seen LTs who thought they were the Best NCO in the platoon.

I had 5 years of Guard Enlisted time prior to regular army commissioning.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2021 9:31 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 14 Feb 2021 21:31:05 -0500

I have heard consistently from senior officers that prior Enlisted Officers are highly competent in their "technical capabilities and knowledge" from O-1 to O-2, but other commissioning sources such as ROTC/OCS tend to catch-up in competencies by the time they hit O-3. Attributes is a different story. The diverse background of the leadership upbringing by other commissioning sources creates a strong diversified mode of leadership that is unique per officer. Leadership is also heuristic in nature, which means that becoming an "effective" leader can never be achieved by a formula. (i.e: reasoning why West Point adopted humanism early in the 20th century. Formulaic perscription hinders delegated tactics/strategies, but that's a different conversation.).

Don't forget what is being taught to us about leadership Competency vs Attributes (ADP 6-22). The leadership definition that we are expected to uphold is a great foundation. Leadership develops from time, wisdom, and experience. Reading a lot of leadership books can really give you a good grasp about "Effective leadership" simultaneously with experience.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2021 11:33 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:33:26 -0500

I have seen dirtbag mustangs, rock star ROTC guys who only want one tour. Focus less on where people came from and more on where you can take them.

Response by PO1 Ronald Parker made Feb 15 at 2021 12:12 PM

PO1 Ronald Parker — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:12:16 -0500

Officers are not trained to do specialized jobs as the enlisted ranks are. I can only go by what I have seen and learned in the Navy. The best person an officer can have under him is a Chief Petty Officer. The officer can explain to the Chief what has to be done but not in detail because he doesnt know the ins and outs of the job requirements. The Chief can pass it down to the E-6 and below in detail and get the job done. I had a couple of officers that wanted to learn the ins and outs and it helped in the long run.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Feb 15 at 2021 1:27 PM

SSG Eric Blue — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 13:27:34 -0500

That's a good question. I honestly believe it depends on the individual. It isn't always true that a prior enlisted troop makes a great officer like some people believe. BUT if a cadet gets surrounded by the right people in the SMP, they can become a great officer. I've seen it happen.

Response by SGT Lorenzo Nieto made Feb 15 at 2021 6:38 PM

SGT Lorenzo Nieto — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:38:59 -0500

Good question in a way it just might make a better officer you be able to understand what a enlisted man goes through back in my time 1967 officers were put a step above nco’s and enlisted men I had a first LT, in Vietnam coolest man I ever served under, always ask what I thought,on the other hand if you become friends with enlisted men you could lose that chain of comand I would say not a good idea.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Feb 15 at 2021 7:25 PM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 19:25:19 -0500

Why?

Response by LCpl Sidney Green made Feb 15 at 2021 11:59 PM

LCpl Sidney Green — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 23:59:00 -0500

Absolutely not. While there may be some benefits with an officer who has "worked in the trenches" it most certainly is not a necessity for him to become a good leader. This is, and should always be a choice for the individual to make. Especially when it begins with the assumption that no officers understands what it means to be enlisted.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Feb 17 at 2021 10:09 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Wed, 17 Feb 2021 10:09:19 -0500

I worked with and trained officers with prior enlisted time. Pilot training students with prior enlisted had the advantage of being adapted to military life. This gave them a bit of an edge for the first month or so of training. It didn’t mean they were any more or less likely to succeed in learning to fly. They were often a little older than their peers and many had spouse. Tended to give them more motivation to work hard, study hard.

Flying the line as a pilot you really couldn’t tell whom might have prior enlisted time. I was impressed when one of my fellow Captain pilots showed up in blues one day with Vietnam ribbons, Army good conduct medal, and a Bronze Star. He never talked about having been in Nam.

Response by MSgt Samuel Thornton made Feb 17 at 2021 11:50 AM

MSgt Samuel Thornton — Wed, 17 Feb 2021 11:50:15 -0500

In my opinion after wearing a uniform for 30 years, it depends on the individuals. I had officers over the course of my military career that possibly could have benefitted from some enlisted time. To say that prior enlisted make better officers is not necessarily true. I had some officers that were prior enlisted that were great because they knew what we as enlisted personnel dealt with on a daily basis. They "remembered where they came from." Then I had officers who were enlisted and basically forgot where they came from. They developed the mindset that they were officers so they could do what they wanted without regard for the people whose backs they were riding on. They forgot that the enlisted corps is the backbone of the military and that if they take care of those people who work for them, then those people will take care of them. They forgot that their outfit can make or break them. So if a maintenance shop has a 98% effectiveness rating with an officer, who remembers what it was like in the trenches, takes care of them and makes sure they have what they need to get the job done AND has their backs while they are doing it, then that officer will go far. But if you have an officer who was prior enlisted, and forgets where he or she comes from, and doesn't take care of his/her people, that effectiveness rating can drop drastically, and before long that officer will be out of a job. So my thoughts are that surely having sometime as enlisted before going on to get a commission can be beneficial, it's about a 50/50 shot. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea, however to give them that foundation prior to going for a commission and so that whether they use it in a positive or negative manner, they will know what the enlisted corps deals with on a day to day basis and how that officer affects his or her people by how they lead.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2021 11:20 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Feb 2021 23:20:14 -0500

The best officers I have ever had were prior enlisted. Many NCOs and lower enlisted respected the officers who have been in their shoes much more than the one fresh off the ROTC train.

Response by MAJ Keith FitzPatrick, CPIM, CSCP made Feb 22 at 2021 9:40 AM

MAJ Keith FitzPatrick, CPIM, CSCP — Mon, 22 Feb 2021 09:40:00 -0500

I was an active duty enlisted soldier who was later commissioned and served on active duty. My experience was that I had a slight tactical leadership advantage over my non-prior service peers for about two years. After that, good leaders rose to the top regardless of previous experience.