Would you call in a SM the next day after surgery, knowing that they are medicated, if they forgot to submit a convalescent leave request?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 03:16:22 -0400

I currently had surgery, and with everything going on I forgot to fill out my con-leave 4187, the day after surgery my NCO called me in knowing I was still medicated. My question is if it was your soldier would you have called the SM back in to fill out the form or would have you done it yourself ?

Response by SSG Keith Cashion made Aug 22 at 2019 3:50 AM

SSG Keith Cashion — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 03:50:11 -0400

The question becomes this, were the medications such that if stopped by LEO you would have been charged with under the influence? If so, I would not have, but explained about the medication. The NCO could have just as easily offered to come to your place and get you to sign it there, and check on your condition as well, but not all think like that.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Aug 22 at 2019 4:37 AM

CW4 Craig Urban — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 04:37:09 -0400

I got hepatitis the non infectious type on a Medivac from McGuire to Travis on a long 4th of July weekend. This is when I was at Fort Belvor doing AIT. I got back to AIT on time. We and some buddies went to the bowling alley to have a beer. I remember black label. It was cheap. My buddy looks at my eyes and says they are all yellow. Immediately takes me to the hospital. They quarantine me for 7 days. At the end they gave me 30 days at home to recover. I did not fill out some stupid 4187. Your NCO should do it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2019 5:11 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 05:11:47 -0400

Are you asking if an NCO would have forged your 4187 and signature in order to cover your mistake that you made prior to surgery? Or are you saying that you chose to drive while intoxicated when you could have called for a ride or an Uber?

You may not realize this, but if you're sitting at home high on opiates during a duty day and something happens (you get hurt, get lost, etc) there are huge repercussions for you and your leadership. Imagine this scenario: you're at home, medicated, you fall and break your arm, you accidentally hurt someone else, you're not present for a UA, Now a line of duty investigation determines your injury wasn't in the line of duty because you never took leave.
Or, imagine the scenario where your NCO forges the signature of their soldier and the soldier decides they don't want to get charged for the leave. Now they allege they never signed the 4187 or the DA31 and that NCO has just forged a signature, charged a SM leave, and will be looking at UCMJ and separation. Are you suggesting that you would risk your family's financial future because an NCO failed to fill out their own paperwork? An NCO who is in the medical field and should be familiar with convalescent leave? It's difficult to expect someone else to cover our own shortcomings.
So, yes I would hold another NCO to the standard of correcting their own mistakes.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Aug 22 at 2019 8:37 AM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 08:37:12 -0400

I would visit them, but realistically the commander can ask their (if they're married) wife.
OR if not married he can direct the 1SG to bring him the form and sign it himself "For" the soldier.
When the soldier comes off medication then the soldier can decide himself.
BUT if the soldier is still in the hospital I'm pretty certain that the convalescent leave will not begin until he's discharged - upon which he will be returned to his unit to sign out.
That may not be the language of the regulations, however I think its closer to what most units follow - mind you I retired in 1993.

Response by SGT Traudel Haney made Aug 22 at 2019 12:31 PM

SGT Traudel Haney — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:31:14 -0400

Better SM would have come to your home with paperwork in hand to assist in the hard copy signature...that is a legal issue for signature authorization...but putting you on the road endangers not only the soldier, but others as well...think about it...

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Aug 22 at 2019 2:28 PM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:28:26 -0400

I got an private message via my home email about this so I decide to express why I disagree in this forum: I really can't see the different in your CO ordering you to Convalescence Leave in peacetime (that 'FOR' signature to mentioned in my earlier response) and your being wounded on a battlefield. Pretty sure no one flagged down a battle MEDEVAC trying to get a soldier's signature on the Convalescence DA4187.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2019 3:04 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:04:46 -0400

First off convalescent leave isn’t done with a 4187, it’s a DA 31. Now to answer your question, I would have typed it up for my Soldier, took it to him/her to sign and make sure I get the paperwork that was provided by the provider.
Although I don’t agree with how it was done, you have to own your part of not taking care of yourself, it is your responsibility to make sure everything is in order prior to your surgery.

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 22 at 2019 3:09 PM

Maj John Bell — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:09:07 -0400

I'd have taken care of you. But when you returned to duty, you'd know you screwed up. Your past history and reputation would determine the intensity of the scolding.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2019 3:18 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:18:31 -0400

Hell yes.
You should have filled it out, as it was your duty and responsibility to do so.
I would have also given you a counseling statement for failing to do so. I would have let the corrective training begin after completion of your terminal leave.

Response by SPC Tony Ross made Oct 1 at 2019 10:37 PM

SPC Tony Ross — Tue, 01 Oct 2019 22:37:21 -0400

From what I read in AR 600-8-10 paragraph 5-3, I interpret it as commander’a discretion to how and whether the paperwork should be filled out and when. If the physician says you need the con-leave and it’s approved without the 4187, it should be able to wait until the meds wear off but that is the opinion of a Legal Spec who hasn’t delved into the ARs in over 20 years.