Would you chapter a problem Soldier out 6 months from ETS?

SSG Randall P. — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:08:47 -0500

Over and done with. But the question still stands.

Scenario:
Problem soldier, 6 months from ETS.

-Late, to everything
-Smart Mouth, sarcasm, questions authority
-Off Duty behavior is highrisk, and unprofessional
-Hides behind NCO's that are his friends (They must go fishing)

Ready? GO!

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Dec 21 at 2014 7:14 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:14:06 -0500

You mentioned counseling, but what kind? With folks that close to ETS and have gone ROAD, I usually find someone else who had no intention on re enlisting to talk to them about how things pop up and make you want to re-up.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 7:21 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:21:31 -0500

SGT Randle, With all that you have stated, I do not see a chapter going through. What would it be for? What I would do is Bar to Re-enlist and let the troop ETD in 6 months,

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 7:24 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:24:33 -0500

Sounds as if he was never really interested in being a soldier... Let him know what being chaptered entails, if he can't suck it up for 6 months and finish honorable then chapter him. It's then on him and not on you.

Response by SSG Randall P. made Dec 21 at 2014 7:26 PM

SSG Randall P. — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:26:39 -0500

Please see my reaponce to MSG Walker, Msgt. It has listed information.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2014 7:28 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:28:52 -0500

You have two choices: Try to shape him up, or get rid of him.

Of the former, the Soldier has to WANT to shape up. There are two ways to do that: Make him care about himself, or make him care about someone else.

Since neither of those are likely, that really leaves only the 2nd choice: Get rid of him. Warn him he has exactly 1-day to shape up or you're going to have the chapter process started, and THAT could drag on for more than six months - meaning he could be held over past his ETS date. If he doesn't want to risk that, then he'll suddenly start caring. If not, well, do what you have to do.

Perhaps there's a job that's a better fit for him, such as baby-sitting a latrine, or putting him on every crap detail that comes up, especially the hard ones that suck. Or maybe your BN needs a permanent Staff Duty... variety of ways, just make sure that it sucks for the Soldier because obviously, if the Soldier isn't willing to pull his weight, he doesn't deserve anything. Other Soldiers who do care, can get the cush jobs and assignments.

Whatever you do, don't pass him off to someone else who has to deal with him.

Personally, I just chapter him and let him know it.

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Dec 21 at 2014 7:36 PM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:36:46 -0500

It's not really you deciding the fate of his career... he is deciding his own. If he has never really been a proper soldier, and has exhibited what you describe as "Disrespect, dereliction, failure to report, disobey a direct order" -- and won't do anything he's supposed to reasonably do -- then I don't see how he deserves the same Honorable Discharge that every other Soldier does. If he is derelict of his duty, and won't even put in the common respect to not be a nuisance for his last few months, then he has sealed the fate of his own career, in my view.

Just being close to ETS doesn't mean somebody can be derelict of their duty and have no consequence.

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Dec 21 at 2014 8:04 PM

SFC David Pope, MBA — Sun, 21 Dec 2014 20:04:05 -0500

I have delt with a similar situation in the past. My approach may not have been what the military would recommend, but I was able to get to the bottom of the situation. I was in the army guard at this time and had been in the private sector for a while, so I treated the soldier like an employee.
I sat down with him over Burger King and asked him 3 questions that he had to give a definitive answer to.
1: what is your goal for one year from now?
2: were do you see yourself five years from now?
3: how can I help you to achieve that goal?
At first he gave the I don't know answers and the I haven't thought about it answer. So I through in some suggestions that allowed me to get to the heart of the matter.
As leaders in the military we are used to giving orders and just expecting to have them followed. In most cases that works, but as NCO's it is our duty to know what is happening in the lives of those we lead. I don't coddle and having been an employer and running several companies I have learned many things from those that came before me. Sometimes when we have a soldier that seems worthless, we need to help them find their self worth. My soldier ended up re-upping for one more round, and took charge of work details. Turned out he was having problems at home and was being harrased by friends that thought he was stupid for joining. Sometimes that soldier just wasn't ment to be in the military and all you can do is have him put on detail until ETS.
I am getting ready to start my doctorate on organizational leadership. Feel free to contact me if I can help in any way. Part of my dissertation is a comparison of military and business leadership and how they can work together to build a better management module for both.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 9:55 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 09:55:22 -0500

Here is my soldier with issues, we'll call him spc snuffy. Snuffy really wasn't bad but it appeared he forgot to ARMY. His saving grace was he was NEVER disrespectful to NCO. He even went to Iraq from what other ncos told me he got passed around a lot because he really couldn't do his job as a 25U. As you see from this picture , pt's with low quarters there was something always wrong with him. We had to attend a class on new equipment our unit was getting, he shows up in ACUs with tennis shoes, he said his girlfriend didn't pack his boots, Another NCO found some boots for him, he also like to sleep in the class. our latest issue with him was pt failure as you see he is a young guy and in height weight standards. While I was grading the pt test I watched him do his situps, he was knocking them out got to close to 60 and said oh I forgot i didnt need to do so many, at the rate he was going he probably could've done 70. He proceeds to do his 2 miles in 25 minutes. next pt test he shows up in some flat bottom vans shoes and of course doesn't pass the run. We had some down time and we were just talking he told me he didn't want to be an NCO because he didn't want to be in charge of someone's life(wartime).Altho he was eligible his raters gave him low marks. Since we had a lot of pt failures the company commander made the soldiers first line supervisors come in early or stay late to pt the failures. Snuffy's supervisor Sgt Smith(not real name)was a pt stud and was willing to help after the first session Sgt Smith said snuffy was unwilling to do pt and it was unfair to waste his time if the soldier wasn't going to try. Snuffy was year from ETS and we explained to him it would be better to have an honorable discharge vs a general discharge. He started to show some improvement but towards the end he never improved.

Response by 1SG Jason Fitzpatrick made Dec 22 at 2014 11:36 AM

1SG Jason Fitzpatrick — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 11:36:59 -0500

There are several issues here that must be addressed. Unless this is the only Soldier in your unit, which I am sure that is not the case, you have a number of "on the fence" Soldiers just waiting to see what happens to your troop with motivation issues. You owe it to them and the Army to initiate Chapter procedings. This will send a clear message to the troops sitting on the fence....THIS ACTION WILL NOT BE TOLERATED....

You also owe the Taxpayers...A chapter 14-12 takes away benefits that as a veteran he/she can use to get a better job or further his/her education. This is a real hard line in the sand, but he/she did sign a contract stating that they would follow the direction and orders of those appointed over them in accordance to regulation and the Uniform Code of Military Justice...

Based on the trail that I read before I started writing, you should have no issues making this "Soldier" either toe the line or join the unemployment line. Show him what he is about to lose when you read the Counseling and what a 14-12 takes away. you don't have time to coddle this Soldier. Treat them fair, but set clear standards of performance and hold them all to them. You will be surprised how fast it becomes known that you will fix or fire someone with less than a year left. people will behave and do what is expected of them.

Response by SSG Randall P. made Dec 22 at 2014 11:45 AM

SSG Randall P. — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 11:45:28 -0500

Thank you everyone for your advice and pearls of wisdom. I'm glad that leaders are offering insight, I didn't think RP would really have much to say. I don't keep threads like this up for long, but I thank every one of you for your insight

V/R

SGT Peaslee

Response by SPC Leisel Luman made Dec 22 at 2014 12:49 PM

SPC Leisel Luman — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 12:49:05 -0500

Remember Bowe Burgdahl. I'm sure Treason and desertion were not the first warning signs that he was unfit to serve. Chapter him since you KNOW he is unfit. If someone had chaptered Burghdahl we would not be in this clusterXXXX now. The deserter getting $300,000.00 shopping money and not even a dishonorable discharge. He hanging out at fort Sam. I wish someone had manned up before it got to this point. Don't loose any sleep over it Chapter him out.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Dec 22 at 2014 5:30 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 17:30:14 -0500

If you cannot reach the Soldier, reach out to the Soldiers family. Be honest with his mother, make sure he still has a room back home and that he is making choices that are not consistent with the Values of the Army. I encourage you to take him to the Soldier for Life Center and get him started with the Transition Assistance Programs.

One thing we do quickly is address the negative performance, we have to take the time to address the positive contributions that our Soldiers make every day. I challenge you to take the time to counsel at least one Soldier every week on a positive contribution they've made to the unit.

Response by CPO Bernie Penkin made Dec 23 at 2014 2:15 PM

CPO Bernie Penkin — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 14:15:46 -0500

Hello SGT. As bad as it sounds, you should probably chapter this guy. The process would serve three purposes. 1. The individual is given his reward for his actions. 2. Other marginal performers will (hopefully) take the chapter as a warning. 3. Nothing reduces morale like carrying a marginal performer and watching them "get away with it." The chaptering of this individual will remind the harder working soldiers that leadership is paying attention and is more than willing to enforce the rules in order to get the job done.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2014 11:14 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Dec 2014 23:14:33 -0500

Part of his problem is probably the fact that he's 6 mos from ETS. He probably has the attitude of "Well I'm this close to being out, so what does it matter?"

I've never seen a chapter take less than 6 mos. If you start the chapter process, will that extend him until it's through? If that's the case let him get out in 6 mos so he doesn't cost the Army money after that.

Or you could try counseling him one more time and tell him, "You're this close to getting out clean despite your F ups. F up one more time and I'll start the packet and you'll get nothing out of all this after the time you've put in."

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2014 7:57 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 07:57:38 -0500

I have done it before. Had a Soldier given a second chance by a 2-star general. We reached out to him and he still refused to show up. I made sure that his packet was pushed and he lost his rank and earned himself an OTH, given on the last day before he would have ETS'd. It took awhile for the system to work, but it did. Why pay benefits to someone who neglected their duties by never showing up? It is your tax dollars too.

Response by 1SG Glenn Moore made Dec 29 at 2014 12:57 PM

1SG Glenn Moore — Mon, 29 Dec 2014 12:57:56 -0500

Probably would not initiate a chapter action. Unless policy has changed since I retired (18 years ago), I would initiate a reenlistment bar action instead.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2014 3:03 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Dec 2014 15:03:50 -0500

Have you reached out to his family? (Center of Gravity)

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Feb 11 at 2015 4:21 PM

CSM Mike Maynard — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:21:52 -0500

Does a Soldier who deserves to be chaptered deserve the same benefits as a Soldier who has served honorably, worked hard and done the right thing?

That's really what we have to ask ourselves - who are we trying to give favorable treatment to? The good Soldier or the sub-standard Soldier?

I always choose to err on the side of ensuring that our good, honorable, hard-working Soldiers get more than those who aren't.

Response by CSM Ralph Hernandez made Feb 11 at 2015 10:15 PM

CSM Ralph Hernandez — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 22:15:28 -0500

SGT Randall,

As a young NCO there is still a lot to learn but it seems that you are on the right track. Remember that you can only try and help a Soldier so much. If he cannot help himself after all the mentoring and counseling he has received then he needs to be chaptered. I agree with a lot of the responses that you have received but ultimately you are the one that has to make the decision. You still have a lot of time in the Army, I hope, and this is not going to be the last time you see this, so I am glad you are learning as a young NCO. You are going to have to make many tuff decisions and some are going to be extremely hard. Do what you think is ethically right not for you but for the Army. Just because he is so close to ETS is not a good reason to keep him in. I will put it another way. What would you think of the Army if this Soldier came to you with an Honorable Discharge? Just my thoughts. V/r, SGM Hernandez

Response by SSG Sean Garcia made Feb 11 at 2015 10:42 PM

SSG Sean Garcia — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 22:42:44 -0500

I have and would not hesitate to chapter a Soldier due to conduct and issues like this again if I was still in. Letting him skate by is what is wrong with many commands these days.
My old CO told me if I wanted that Soldier gone so bad, I had to do the paperwork. I did, and he's gone. Everton always talks about bad leadership, but there are bad Soldiers just the same.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2015 11:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Feb 2015 23:52:11 -0500

Career? What career do you see, SGT?
It's clear that the Soldier don't give a damn and continued to proven that fact time and time again! At some point, the problem is NOT this so called Soldier, but his leadership not putting a end to the mockery.
Take this incident for the training aid that it is and move on, the quicker you snatch that uniform off of that time waster, the better your life as a leader will become.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 1:04 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 01:04:36 -0500

Absolutely , I wouldn't want that Soldier a part of my formation now or ever. If you allow them to stay in and ETS, you say they served honorably and can return later in some instances. Is this Troop someone you would want watching your back in the trenches? Do you think he deserves the same benefits as those who work hard every day and put in the extra time to make sure their team is successful? I don't. I would get him out as fast as legally possible. Sounds like he already been afforded one too many opportunities to shape up with no success.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 1:29 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 01:29:23 -0500

I have to agree with CPO Bernie Penkin; it is time to do the paperwork.

This individual believes that he can just get away by ETS'ing which is not fair to the Soldiers who have worked hard.

When someone refuses to straighten up more stringent measures must be taken. Another good thing is that those who are thinking about being silly might change their mind.

I understand it is a very hard decision. I have been there myself. You just have to realize that there are some people which cannot be saved.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 5:39 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 05:39:43 -0500

The reality of this situation. ..It is alot faster to do an ETS PACKET on the Soldier rather than a Chapter out packet...u can do it 90 days before his ETS...give the Soldier the proper counseling until then and make sure he clears out completely from the unit...u never want any dead weight in ur team...it will effect the whole group...been there...done that.

Response by SPC Emerson Budreau made Feb 19 at 2015 6:01 AM

SPC Emerson Budreau — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 06:01:37 -0500

The Army needs to reinstate Charlie's Chicken Farm. Unless it was an urban legend. Send all the less than standard Joe's to get a month of harsh rehabilitation. I really wish it was around during my time in, it could have changed the futures of several personnel that I worked with. They were the cause of their own demise, but a swift kick to the ass could have gave them the potential to turn around.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 7:15 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 07:15:35 -0500

You are correct it is a heavyweight issue. For the Soldier, not you. I know I am a month late into this discussion, and you may have already decided what to do, but the right thing is to chapter this soldier. If his counseling packet is as thick as you say then it won't be hard, it will just be some paper work, and that is what PLs are for.
Many others have said it much more eloquently than I did, but if he is allowed to ETS then his benefits are intact, if you chapter this Soldier then he loses many of the aforementioned benefits.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 7:56 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 07:56:56 -0500

90/10 rule. That you have to ask us what to do shows that you have spent a lot of time trying to solve the problem. We like to try the easy things first. And determining how to disposition someone is not an easy thing.

I had to get a sailor out while I was in. The sailor was great at just being sub-par and everyone else knew it. When I had a nice paper trail to show that this a long standing issue I started to push to get them removed early(1year). I initially ran into resistance because of long laundry list of things from "you will ruin chances in their life" to "we don't hurt sailors like that". I tried every trick in the book to get this sailor to want to finish at least their first enlistment successfully.

To make a long story short. I did get them out early with a less than stellar RE code. I had sailors come up to me and say thank you to me for reducing the units drag so to speak.

Good luck with this. You have colleagues here that support the decision you are about to make.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 8:17 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:17:12 -0500

Recommending someone for seperation should never be an easy task. It is good that you are questioning your descision because that means you are weighing all your options and being fair and just.....with that said.... NCO must enforce standards because if they are not enforced the bar is lowered. Allowing this person to continue to serve in a substandard way discredits everyone elses hard work around him. Allowing to stay will send the wrong message to the people around the unit.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 8:18 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:18:26 -0500

You only have the authority to recommend actions. It is the commander's decision how to proceed. A chapter could take longer than his 6 months, but at the same time if no action is taken then he could potentially reenlist and continue to be a "bad Soldier". If you have the supporting evidence that he has not been preforming, then at least the commander should/could place a bar to reenlist. Even after the bar is placed, a chapter can still be pushed forward.

As previously mentioned, you may just need to be the leader that cares and find out what is causing him not to participate. He could be having some other issues (family, debt, depression..) that could factor into the way he is acting.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Feb 19 at 2015 8:23 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:23:33 -0500

Without a doubt. He is a soldier and expected to perform his duties until the day of his ETS. If he refuses to do that he should be punished and, if it continues, chaptered out of the Army.

I have done that on a couple of occasions and have not lost any sleep over it. The soldiers brought it on themselves.

What you do with this soldier will be seen by others who may have a similar mindset as they approach ETS. Set the example with this soldier and give him what he deserves.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 3 at 2015 4:18 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 16:18:33 -0500

What are his infractions? Is a Blue Falcon?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2015 9:13 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 21:13:22 -0500

It sounds like the soldier has determined what path he wanted to take, and has to deal with the consequences. It's not like you haven't done everything in your power to help. Some people just don't want to be helped.

Response by SGM David W. Carr LOM, DMSM MP SGT made Dec 3 at 2015 9:42 PM

SGM David W. Carr LOM, DMSM MP SGT — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 21:42:44 -0500

Yes if the documentation against the soldier that would warrant a soldier being chartered out of the service for cause. Bad soldiers have no place in the army.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Dec 4 at 2015 3:08 AM

1stSgt Eugene Harless — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 03:08:16 -0500

He doesn't have a career. While it's commendable that you want to give him a chance you can't make chicken-salad out of chicken shit. The good soldiers in your unit are the ones who deserve your attention, seperate this dirt bag ASAP. Some people are nothing more than big hairy turds hanging out of the Army's ass. Pinch them off and flush them.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Dec 4 at 2015 5:33 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 17:33:28 -0500

It's not that heavy a weight. Go ahead and do what you have to do to get rid of him. He is contaminating the rest of your unit, and a waste of taxpayer dollars. And remember the quote by Sun Tzu. There are no bad soldiers, only bad generals. Your platoon leader needs a copy of that for not dealing with the issue himself.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 4 at 2015 8:22 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 20:22:13 -0500

Hard to say without knowing his/her indiscretions

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2016 3:04 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 03:04:10 -0400

Based on this limited info, yes.

If he/she's such a detriment to daily operations and shows no effort to be a team player, hey, gotta go, even a little earlier than anticipated.

Response by CSM Ralph Hernandez made Sep 2 at 2016 12:17 PM

CSM Ralph Hernandez — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 12:17:22 -0400

I have made the decision to chapter a Soldier with 2 months before ETS. But like the MAJ said it was by their own actions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2016 1:39 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 13:39:59 -0400

Yes. Based in what you are saying. I wouldn't for issues that are not due to misconduct. (i.e. P.T. failure, overweight)

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Sep 2 at 2016 4:16 PM

CPT Tom Monahan — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 16:16:59 -0400

If they had several NJPs, a flag, and a bar I'd do it in a heart beat. As a civilian manager I can't tell you how many vets with and odd amount of time in the service I passed on. Of couse I'd find out if they were medical discharges (I'm PDRL) or not.