Would you chapter an NCO with 11.5 years of service for APFT failure 8 months before his ETS date?

2015-01-30T16:56:43-05:00

I have a fellow NCO (SSG) in my unit that has been in for 11 1/2 years and does not plan to reenlist. He is currently 8 months from his ETS date. He has failed the last three APFTs (Run event) but is steadily improving, about 1 minute improvement each test. He's never been in trouble for misconduct and has never had any UCMJ against him in all his career thus far. The chain of command has initiated chapter preceedings but haven't followed through with it just yet. The commander has already imposed a bar to reenlistment. He has 98 days of leave which would put him on terminal leave in about 5 months. He's only been counseled for APFT failure once and they will not give him any diagnostic APFTs. All three have been record APFTs back to back. He is wanting to submit a 90 day school drop which would put him out of here (if approved) by April on terminal leave but is afraid there will be push back from the chain.

A little background on the guy, he came to the unit on a compassionate reassignment last April due to his child's medical needs and about 5 months after he got here he was sent over to ACAP to work there on a 6 month rotation. At this point he had already failed the APFT once. There is no organized PT where he is so he is left to do PT on his own time.

What are your thoughts on this? Should his command have sent him to work at ACAP given his situation with his assignment and the APFT? Should he be chaptered or would you just let him ETS?

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jan 30 at 2015 5:14 PM

2015-01-30T17:14:22-05:00

If he's afraid of push-back that he ought to improve his push-ups (or whatever the event is)and pass the dang APFT....I don't know any professionals with 11.5 years of service that lacks the confidence to engage the leadership concerning his immediate future.

Response by SPC Stewart Smith made Jan 30 at 2015 5:38 PM

2015-01-30T17:38:23-05:00

Is this a joke? I was in a unit with PFCs who hadn't passed a PT since they got to the unit. How could the CoC possibly justify chaptering an NCO with 11.5 years of service without bad conduct?
While I agree that physical fitness is a necessity in the military, I think this is utterly ridiculous.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 5:48 PM

2015-01-30T17:48:34-05:00

If i was him and or you i would pop open Enlisted Administrative Seperations and look up Unsatisfactory Performance i think its Chap 13 for active duty (chapter 9 for the reserves) if i recall correctly between that, AR 350-1 and FM 7-22 there is VERY specific guidance on what has to happen to meet that seperation criteria. His leadership not providing ample time in between record APFT's as well as not counseling him enough...straight up that company commander will make himself look stupid if he passes up that packet. JAG will take one look and laugh in his face. On the other hand his bar to reenlist will remain in effect however if he is planning on getting out then he nothing to worry about. Key points: more than 2 consecutive record failure is a no go, there must be at least 90 days in between each and counseling counseling counseling cant harp the counseling enough. I get pissed at my NCO's when they tell me a soldier is a shit bag and we do nothing about it when they consistently fail to provide documentation of how much that soldier may or may not "suck"

I heavily suggest he gets with jag and you guys pop open the Regulations.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Jan 30 at 2015 6:01 PM

2015-01-30T18:01:19-05:00

The question should not be "would you chapter," but "what does the regulation say you need to do." The regulations are pretty clear with regards to APFT failures. Personal opinions should not be involved in this line of questioning. As a Leader, it is our responsibility to enforce regulations and to provide sound guidance to our Leaders. To be quite honest, the NCO should have known the situation that an APFT failure would bring upon him or herself...

Response by SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA made Jan 30 at 2015 6:15 PM

2015-01-30T18:15:47-05:00

The circumstances are irrelevant, some NCOs and Officers believe they have the moral high ground to make such decisions and make things personal. Especially when someone is on profile, has family problems or is in some way not 100% battle ready, you are suddenly a Persona non grata and they somehow hate your very existence, regardless of past performance.
So many things have changed for the worse in the Military, one does not need to be an even worse policy on a soldier who gave 11 years.
IF he is a discipline problem and IF he was insubordinate then a different story but I believe he simply looks weak and useless to the gung ho chain of command who need to flex their muscles, much like a Police Officer in a shoot out firing into a corpse just to "get on off".
I am generalizing and making assumptions based on the statement above, I may be wrong but darn that felt good to see it in black and white!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 7:01 PM

2015-01-30T19:01:14-05:00

Emotionally no.
Professionally yes....have to show we doing the right thing...

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Jan 30 at 2015 8:18 PM

2015-01-30T20:18:43-05:00

Sounds like this NCO got dealt a bad hand. From your statement I would assume that he was dealing with a lot of stress at home and was unable to maintain PT standards during his Compassionate Reassignment. Not having mandatory PT, and with family issues likely still present to some extent, depending on the workload I can see why he wouldn't have made PT his focus. I understand the requirement of passing the APFT, but in my opinion the command has been failing him. It sounds to me that he isn't physically fit, because he's been trying to get emotionally, socially, mentally, and spiritually fit. This is the whole reasoning behind the GAT requirement and the Army Fit initiative. I hope the command has pressured his leadership to make time for him to conduct PT during normal duty hours. My command doesn’t, but I also don’t have a family to take care of so it’s easier for me to make time for PT.

Response by 1SG Mark Mccall made Jan 30 at 2015 8:37 PM

2015-01-30T20:37:21-05:00

As a retired Senior NCO(1SG), the command from the 1SG down thru the PLT. SGT., Squad Leader need to go back through the regs...............cause your surely leaving a couple of steps out. The SSG. needs to get help through the JAG, and pecker checkers. Granted, there is a problem but documented evidence to support the claim for discharge is mandatory.

Response by MAJ Monique Ruiz made Jan 30 at 2015 9:21 PM

2015-01-30T21:21:30-05:00

Goodness!...it's so hard to not be brutally honest on this site. Being that close to his ETS and he has improved, I would let him ETS as a "taking care of Soldiers" gesture and thanking him for his service. If people can get a pass for worse things (not under my command though), I don't see it being wrong to let him ETS. Now if he wanted to stay, he's improving! I allow three months for significant improvement before I process that kind of discharge. Show me you want it and I'll let you stay.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 10:26 PM

2015-01-30T22:26:37-05:00

I would definitely start the chapter. Regulation requires it. With that said, the Commander can always recommend to the approving authority to have it suspended for so many months. I just struggle with a SSG in our Army that cannot meet the standards that we preach everyday on, and what is expected of us as Soldiers.

Response by SSgt Jay Dee made Jan 30 at 2015 10:32 PM

2015-01-30T22:32:52-05:00

He should have been given the boot after the first failure.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 10:47 PM

2015-01-30T22:47:30-05:00

He is a SSG, he has been in long enough to know the Standard, know what it takes to achieve the standard, and what happens if you don't meet the Standard. He needs to be chaptered. End of Story.
If he is hurt or injured there are systems in place to help those Soldiers. You story of this SSG does not fit that criteria.
There is no excuse for this and this a symptom of what is wrong in the Army. If you are only good at your Job, and have qualified at the range, but Fail you APFT...You are only 66% of what you need to be.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 11:14 PM

2015-01-30T23:14:19-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member the fact that they are trying to keep everyone in the Army Reserves now you would be hard pressed to get it approved anyway. If the commander wanted to do it he/she could have done it after two failures given that he was counseled after both and the time period between the tests were according to regulations. Unfortunately, personal reasons do not justify failure nor does not have organizational PT justify the failures. Army programs are typically made just to maintain current levels of fitness. It is up to the individuals to improve themselves and work with their first line leaders to come up with a plan. If what you presented is fully correct, as we know there are generally items missing, then I foresee issues with the chapter getting approved. It is also hard enough to process a DDR packet (hot for drugs) with an year, so the timeframe may not be realistic anyway.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 11:39 PM

2015-01-30T23:39:05-05:00

I keep reading about how his leadership has failed him. Is there no personal accountability? The standards are there for a reason and if he wants to be part of the military he will meet them. Being in the military is a privilege not a right. If he can't meet standards it's his own fault.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 12:08 AM

2015-01-31T00:08:18-05:00

As far as doing PT, if an NCO needs to be baby sat so they do PT......there's a problem. There not being any organized PT is not an excuse. There's no organized PT in my unit and I find time to PT five days (usually six) a week. So that dog isn't going to hunt.

As far as working ACAP, I can't comment on that. But I would suggest he do as 1LT Jonathan Lyon stated and dig into the AR's.

I hate to see anyone get chaptered and I hope he gets his affairs squared away.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 9:14 AM

2015-01-31T09:14:48-05:00

This is an interesting post and the comments are even better. We have a lot of "strict by the book" comments that this NCO needs to be separated immediately, we have a lot of the reg says this/that comments, we have a lot of judgment comments on a NCO none of us know personally.

It has been stated that the NCO was compassionately reassigned due to his child's medical condition, that is a red flag to me if I was the CSM of that unit. Placing the Soldier at ACAP to work may have benefitted the NCO because of a structured schedule and gave him and his family predictability. Should he have done P.T. on his own, hell yeah he should of but it sounds to me as if he has struggled with P.T. for awhile (just assuming). The NCO is flagged and barred so he can't reenlist anyway and must be separated if he cannot overcome the bar.

I understand the fact that he is a NCO and expected to lead by example but I am also a human being. He is going to get an honorable discharge regardless and I am still tasked to provide an ACAP NCO...

I would let him ETS.

OMG did a Sergeant Major just say that? Yeah I did.

Response by A1C Michael Clarke made Jan 31 at 2015 1:33 PM

2015-01-31T13:33:05-05:00

The guy is all but gone. Let him go on his terms.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 11:33 AM

2015-02-01T11:33:31-05:00

The human side of me wild say no but the business said yes the army is a business and sometime you have to conduct business as such

Response by SFC Rapfeal Mayfield made Feb 1 at 2015 11:43 AM

2015-02-01T11:43:08-05:00

I've been in the military long enough...I know the regs. You have to pass your PT test...you have to pass height/weight...yada yada yada!!! Got that, but come, on the guy has 8 months let the guy ETS obviously he's trying because he has been improving. He has been barred and flagged anyway so he can't reenlist. The CoC can use all that time and energy they are using on the SSG to mentor or chapter someone who really needs it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 2:26 PM

2015-02-01T14:26:45-05:00

I Will never use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit or personal safety.
KICK HIM OUT!

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Feb 1 at 2015 3:29 PM

2015-02-01T15:29:25-05:00

Let him ETS without having an adverse reenlistment code on his DD Form 214. Compassionate reassignment indicates a serious issue was being considered. Why not continue with the compassion and let him go.

It's always "by the reg's" until it happens to you or someone you know.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 4:26 PM

2015-02-01T16:26:25-05:00

I would have to side with human being and say let him ETS. If he was a challenge during his time in, I may have a different stance but it doesn't seem so from the OP. It sounds more like a series of unfortunate incidents for this soldier and his family.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 4:48 PM

2015-02-01T16:48:36-05:00

In actuality, the army would save money by ets. Otherwise, he would be entitled to involuntary separation pay if given a chapter better than bad conduct. It actually may help him a bit. I would definitely look into this to see if anything has changed in the involuntary sep pay.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 8:10 PM

2015-02-01T20:10:10-05:00

The procedures outlined in the refs aren't being followed. JAG will kick their separation packet back to them...and laugh at their face.

Response by SPC Lukas Jones made Feb 2 at 2015 1:48 AM

2015-02-02T01:48:59-05:00

I am currently assigned to a Brigade and am recently recovered from a lower back injury. I have recently been medically cleared to physically train again (physical rehab release) but was issued a perminant profile for running. I have been struggling to loose the weight I had gained while I was out with my injury. My unit is aware that I am a record failure but continues to give me diagnostics in between our mandated record APFTs. I have as well been counseled and my ETS is this May pending my passing APFT and reclass scheduling. My unit is seeing progress with me and is either holding back the proceedings for me, or allowing me to return to an acceptable fitness status without initiating the proceedings.

I believe that the unit's command may be able to lag the process since the soldier is showing improvement if it is the soldier's wish to remain in the Army (as is like my situation). I have had several meetings with my commanders and 1SG as well as have been assigned an approved physical fitness regiment. My suggestion would be to have the soldier utilize the open door policy and have a meeting with his leadership and discuss the situation. If the leadership is aligned with the soldier's wishes and is understanding, they may be able to fix the situation.

Response by MSgt Jim Wolverton made Feb 2 at 2015 6:22 AM

2015-02-02T06:22:37-05:00

Like the CSM says, it would be a waste of resources and everyone's time to pursue this if he is separating in the near future. The systems is already working now that he isn't able to re-enlist. As to what others think and questions they may ask, sometimes you just need to worry about yourself and not others. In my experience, many in the military can barely look after themselves.

Response by SSG Julio Ramirez made Feb 2 at 2015 7:02 AM

2015-02-02T07:02:06-05:00

I've reas some coments on this issue and the only word that comes to my mind is "compassion". I know the Army run on rules, and manuals, and regulaciones but there is always a way to work on cases like this. I know we lead by example. But I too know that the Army is compose of human beings. As a retired NCO some times I think back of my fellow soldiers. The one I was in charge of. And I remember how many times the came before me looking for a solution for their issues. I understood more of their situations. And I also learned to disciernes between the fakes and the real one. And benn compasionate with them help me gained their trust and was easy to work with. I agree To give this man his ETS.

Response by SGT(P) Kenneth Jones made Feb 2 at 2015 7:24 AM

2015-02-02T07:24:59-05:00

I have seen it happen to soldiers with just 2 months before ets and med board packet is completed why should an NCO not be held to the same standards. The NCO is suppose to set the standards and live up to the stadards he/she enforces their soldiers to adhere to. When I get pinned my SGT I , as I do now, will not put myself in a position to fail and then to expect special treatment if I would. Then the soldiers under me would then think they deserve the same if they fail. What would we be showing our soldiers. It has been getting bad enough with the new soldiers coming that have norespect for the rank structure let alone with attitudes. Its time I say we take our military back and clean up the slop that has come in. Soldiers and NCOs alike. I would be embarrassed to be that senior NCO over that NCO listening to him asking for that favor to look the other way.

Response by SGT(P) Kenneth Jones made Feb 2 at 2015 7:48 AM

2015-02-02T07:48:58-05:00

All I have read so far says look the other way and do not hold this NCO to the standards and accountable. So we should do this for all soldiers then that plan to ets out. Bar them from reenlistment and flag them and just let them walk out with a clean slate and a thank you for your service it was an honor. I cant be the only one that sees an issue with this. This just burns thr NCO creed to the grown. As I have always been told keep personal business at home and military in the military. Granted not saying he/she cant seek help but if you cant keep it together and perform as a soldier as well as conduct your personal buisness then one of two things either change personal buisness to ware it isnt affecting your career or simple hang up your career and leave but dont ask for favors because you cant hack both. I have family issues but I dont let it effect my career. I am simply going to adjust fire. Seperate from family because they cant hack being in the military and except I follow guidelines and instructions. I tried to explain but seem to think they should have to follow and be able to live still as a civilian and I should be aloud to as well. I'm sorry as I swore mission first and completion of my mission. I wont stop moving forward and expect special treatment because of the seperation, but I came in know that the mission comes first and once completed then I can relax. So back to subject I think that somewhere chain of commands have gotten soft on NCOs but then expect to hang a soldier out to dry. We then become the guilty ones of showing soldiers as soon as you become an NCO you can get away with everything and only Joes are the ones to be punished.

Response by SGT(P) Kenneth Jones made Feb 2 at 2015 7:51 AM

2015-02-02T07:51:51-05:00

Sorry using phone and it has a mind of its own they think the shouldnt have to follow millitary rules and I dont expect special treatment to clear that up before it is mistaken.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 11:25 AM

2015-02-02T11:25:18-05:00

This is a command leadership failure at the company command level.

At what point did we allow organized physical fitness at he unit level to not be enforced?

I agree with the CSM. This Soldier should be allowed to ETS, with no prejudice.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Feb 4 at 2015 11:58 AM

2015-02-04T11:58:10-05:00

Knowing up front we do not have ALL of the background and information needed to make a absolute statement.

Is it Separation under AR635-200 chap 13 he is looking at or???
I think you will find the commander was required to initiate the separation, per regulation. not doing so puts the commander at risk of dereliction of duty.
"e. Initiation of separation proceedings is required for Soldiers without medical limitations who have two consecutive failures of the Army physical fitness test per AR 350–1"

As a former guy that used to work up these action for his commander..the command team discussion is often..
Initiate? YES, reg says we have to.
Complete and process ? YES ...NO?
If no and we do not feel the need ensure the SM can not return to service later, then the SM separates at ETS and we all go our separate ways.
If No and we feel the SM should not have an opportunity to reenlist some time after ETS, then steps are taken to ensure he is not eligible (RE code of "4")
If Yes, separate then we understand it will be an adverse action and require extensive documentation over a reasonable time period that shows the transgression, failures, attempted corrective actions, and failures to those, transfer with documentation to another unit, counseling, continued observed failure to correct the issue..

Bottom line, based on what little is presented for the SM in question, I would have initiated the separation and told him, do your best, keep your head up and do it right, US ARMY...Uncle Sam Aint Released Me Yet so dont quite doing the job. And let it go at that....normal separation at expiration of term of service. Ar 635-200 Chap 4

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2015 1:45 PM

2015-02-17T13:45:43-05:00

I have had this issue in my previous unit. Keep the BAR in place and allow the Soldier to ETS. That way the Army won't have to pay severance. Sure it's a black mark during QTB, but I can handle an ass chewing for saving the Army about $65K.

Response by Maj Tyrone Frost made Mar 31 at 2015 2:28 PM

2015-03-31T14:28:57-04:00

Our priorities are all f_cked up. We worry about PFT's and punishment rather than mentorship. We are worried about pleasing leadership with powere point slide showes that have near perfect numbers, rather than report the truth. I mentored 2 airmen coming off failure PFT's and refural EPR's and a year later they are striving in their careers. I told them I don't give an F that they failed. Lets get up and press on. We are at war, the AF PFT isn't the most impotant thing at this exact monent.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 23 at 2015 10:09 PM

2015-04-23T22:09:18-04:00

You can't be any harder on this NCO as a APFT failure as than other Soldiers in the past or currently serving. You can not make a "make him an example" situation out of this; I do not think that would be right or ethical given the medical situation with this son. If he as 8 months left in the Army, place him in a position where is not in charge of Soldiers. If he is on an APFT remedial program he should continue that program if he is still works at the unit. I was responsible for him and I placed him into a position where was useful to the Army yet he could still ETS, I can feel about that.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 11:52 PM

2015-04-23T23:52:17-04:00

Would you chapter a first term Soldier for the same? If that were the case how much weight would the ets date of the Private have? I don't sympathize with NCOs who fail to uphold standards and set an appropriate example. One foot out the door is not an exception.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made May 5 at 2015 8:47 PM

2015-05-05T20:47:01-04:00

The SSG., in question has been failed by his unit. The Record APFT is conducted every 180 days. Unless the unit commander agrees with the Soldier that he can pass for record the APFT. Before taking the APFT for record the soldier should have been counseled of the ramifications of attempting a subsequent for record APFT.

How could anyone advise him to take back to back APFT test as he did. He should have been given a Diagnostic APFT every month until the Record Date came up again and then do the Record APFT. The SSG. has been set up for failure, a good leader would have never agreed to follow a Back to Back course of action

Response by SPC Nathan Freeman made May 6 at 2015 11:52 PM

2015-05-06T23:52:18-04:00

As a reservist, everybody does pt on their own time and still manage to pass pt tests. I'm pretty sure there are regulations that require a certain amount of time between record apft. Even if that isn't the case, he must know that every month he will be taking another test. He needs to do more of what he is doing between now and the next test.

That being said, it is a waste of commands time and energy to expedite his exit. Having failed one APFT, he already flagged and therefore barred from reenlistment automatically. No need for further action.

Response by 1SG Jason Smith made May 7 at 2015 4:17 PM

2015-05-07T16:17:04-04:00

I would just let him ETS. He is given 11.5 years. ETS 8 months out. I have seen units take years to get someone chaptered

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made May 7 at 2015 4:22 PM

2015-05-07T16:22:58-04:00

That NCO would be entitled to a seperation board. It would probably drag on for a month and then he would probably be discharged. However proper counseling and everything must be done to discharge.

Response by SGT John Rauch made May 7 at 2015 4:24 PM

2015-05-07T16:24:35-04:00

this is the crap I dont miss about the military. where is the humanity? I mean come on people, soldier or not, everybody is human. we are not machines, the higher ups need to ask what they would do to themselves in his position. I am certain that the VAST majority would say, Im out in 8 months. not going to chapter myself. then there are the narrow minded leaders who think they have to make an example of people. every time I met one I just hoped I was around to see their actions come back and kick them in the tail. what a bunch of pricks.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 12:06 AM

2015-05-19T00:06:37-04:00

You could try but chances are, he would ETS before that packet was processed. He does his ETS packet 90 days prior. That cuts it down to about 5 months ( he still has to drill until orders are received. You have to give the Soldier their Notification, then like most packets, they probably have 30 days to respond or make their rebuttal. Cuts it down another month. Then if mistakes are made, the packet gets kicked back for corrections

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made May 21 at 2015 6:43 PM

2015-05-21T18:43:23-04:00

I think it is Ironic that Soldiers with the Authority, pick and choose which regulation to follow. I have been in the Military a good number of years. If the regulations were held to the black and white standard, a lot of Soldiers would be out. I believe regulations are there for the same reason that common sense is not so common.

How many Soldiers are there that were discharged for failure to pass the APFT alone. I believe the ones that were sent home had other circumstances included with the APFT.

The Ironic part of this is when our unit was Activated to go too Afghanistan, the APFT status of a Soldier never came up. Everyone went. What happened to the regulations, everyone including APFT failures went.

Either follow the regulation for all circumstances or use a little bit of common sense

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2015 4:11 PM

2015-06-16T16:11:10-04:00

As much as I hate to say it. He is still an NCO until he is officially out, and respectfully, should lead by examole.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2015 4:15 PM

2015-06-16T16:15:18-04:00

From the looks of it, He shoulve been placed on the special programs following his first APFT failure. I do understand and consider he has served his share of time and is going through some situations. As an NCO he shouldve took "the initiative by taking appropriate actions in the absence of orders." (Pertaining to Unit PT, he shouldve took it upon himself.) As it looks to me, the unit is trying to cut ties, because of the draw down. I wish him the best. I wouldve just let him carry out his term, so he would be able to carry on with his civilian life. I also referneced;
FM 7-22:
6. APFT. In accordance with AR 350-1, the APFT will be administered for record at least twice a year.
a. Ideally, testing dates should fall within the months of April and October.
7. Unit Goals. Commanders should establish goals based on the physical requirements of the unit’s mission/METL.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2015 9:47 PM

2015-06-16T21:47:02-04:00

Bar is in place and the guy is still doing his job. I see no issues with letting him stay until ETS. As long as he isn't a discipline issue, there are bigger concerns today than an ETSing APFT failure. Helps out ACAP, and helps out the Soldier.

Response by SFC Stephen King made Jul 6 at 2015 1:49 PM

2015-07-06T13:49:13-04:00

An NCO that has been so much with his family and a child no less. It would be more conducive for his command to allow him to ETS or better yet a 90 day early school release for his family. Keep the BAR although it is a rehabilitated tool and set this NCO up for success as they pursue their future.

Response by SFC Brian Walden made Apr 20 at 2016 4:14 PM

2016-04-20T16:14:25-04:00

Keep the Bar to reenlistment, let him ETS.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2016 9:26 PM

2016-08-02T21:26:53-04:00

For me, to be honest if he's ETSing in less than year I'd just let him go, it's not worth the paper work or the hassle. If there is no remedial PT program in place then JAG would throw it out anyway. I'd just flag him and let him go. I know that's not the UCMJ by the book answer but as a CO my admin load was already big enough as it was trying to get rid of all the bad conduct guys. This would have been pretty far down on my stack. Besides he'd probably just get a P3 and an MEB then he'd be in for another year while all that goes on.

Response by SFC Clark Adams made Jun 7 at 2017 3:07 PM

2017-06-07T15:07:36-04:00

No, send him SD out of the A/O until his ETS processing date.

Response by CWO4 Bryan Simon made Jul 3 at 2017 12:27 PM

2017-07-03T12:27:18-04:00

You gave the man three chances to improve himself and he refused. Separate immediately.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2018 2:38 PM

2018-03-29T14:38:36-04:00

Sir, well said. Rallypoint needs to have ♥️ like Facebook

Response by SPC Tom DeSmet made Apr 11 at 2018 8:06 PM

2018-04-11T20:06:11-04:00

I guarantee back in the 80's it wouldnt be a question. They were on a rampage against marginal physical fitness and would much rather boot a stellar soldier or NCOs for being within 10% of their target weight/ body fat and keep a block head who was skinny as a rail. No, I didn't get booted for this, I just watched several NCO's get RIF'd at 17 and 18 years for this, mostly due to health issues. Now that the wars are winding down I'm sure there will be another run of "cleaning house".

Response by Sgt Jesus Rodriguez made Jun 22 at 2018 1:22 PM

2018-06-22T13:22:25-04:00

Honestly, this reads like he is not keeping up with the standards so he should be pushed out from the service.. Unless, he has other medical or physical issues that are not addressed here then an eval should be granted. Too many service members are serving or have left the service with medical, physical or psychological issues that at times they are not even aware of until months/years later.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 20 at 2018 9:32 PM

2018-07-20T21:32:24-04:00

It doesn't matter what I would do, by regs he is subject to chapter- if the unit wants to push it, then he's gone. Is there anything else he is failing to do? Reaching 12 or 20 is not a reward for being a placeholder.

Response by SFC Cynthia Eyer made Apr 14 at 2019 12:52 AM

2019-04-14T00:52:59-04:00

Let him ETS. Period.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Apr 14 at 2019 7:56 AM

2019-04-14T07:56:28-04:00

He is a NCO! Just because he does not intend on re-enlisting does not give him the right to not meet his responsibilities as a NCO. The reason there are retention standard is for good order and discipline. Chapters ensure that an individual is not able (easily) to reenter at a later date. The unit would not be considered compassionate for allowing this NCO to slide by, they would be deralicked in their duties. ACAP should have been a cake walk, his individual PT should have improved. He is a NCO, a leader of Soldiers.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2019 7:03 AM

2019-09-17T07:03:25-04:00

I am surprised by the number of individuals that opt to allow this SSG to remain in the Army and ETS as contracted; many with a rank that is that of a leader that is absolutely responsible for adherence of the standards by subordinates.
I have many issues with this.
First, the APFT guidance is no less than 4 months between record APFTs (unless the CDR and Soldier both think the Soldier is ready). This SSG hasn’t passed an APFT in at least 12 months, if the post is accurate and all things are being done IAW regulation.
Second, good order and discipline isn’t about individual Soldiers. How many of you have seen Soldiers in your units that just shouldn’t be in the Army? Every Soldier that is of lower rank sees this SSG and thinks “standards are only for us I guess”. These scenarios effect morale, and very often effect retention rates.
This situation also, with little doubt, makes the SSG ineffective at leading any type of Soldier. If the SSG makes any on the spot correction, and the Soldier knows that the SSG cannot pass an APFT, he will lose that much more respect. An NCO that cannot adhere to standards themselves are going to have no success in leading other Soldiers to adhere to standards.
How is the Commander going to justify chattering a SPC for the exact same infraction when they let the SSG go for nearly two years without passing an APFT with no extenuating circumstances except he didn’t do week with the responsibility of doing PT on his own?
Someone commented the SSG was given a bad hand. The reason it seems he was sent to SFL-TAP to work was to give him a more flexible schedule to deal with his personal issues. The reason he should stay at SFL-TAP is to keep him away from Soldiers.
A Bar to Continued Service became a punitive tool not too long ago. Meaning, if the conditions aren’t met to overcome the bar after 6 total months, separation must be initiated.
There are TWO reasons, in accordance with regulation, that this Soldier should be chartered. Let’s not continue letting standards dip to the lowest level possible just so we as leaders aren’t the bad guy. This Soldier needs to go.
A standard ignored is a new standard set. Took me many years as a young Soldier to figure out what that meant.

Response by SSG Robert Ricci made Nov 2 at 2019 7:41 AM

2019-11-02T07:41:31-04:00

I would let him ETS with dignity. I entered the Army in 1978 when Vietnam vets were coming back in large numbers. Back then my platoon Sergeant was grossly obese. But he had paid his dues. He'd been in the bush and now he's out just waiting to punch his ticket. As a soldier I wouldn't want him fighting next to me necessarily while at the same time he might just be the soldier I want next to me because he knew stuff. I understand the AFPT which they were just starting to crack down on when I left. I've always had a thin build and I was a letterman cross country runner in high school. I could drop in a 4.5 minute cross country mile bringing me in just under 9 minutes. But not everybody can do that. How did he do on the rest of the AFPT? If he's got a child with medical needs he's going to really need his military benefits. If he's so close to terminal ETS screw with a guy? Oh wait. Let me guess. His company Commander he's just got his Captain bars and needs to make a name for himself. Or does it go higher up in the chain than that? Who did he piss off? Let the man finish out his time and retire.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Nov 2 at 2019 6:03 PM

2019-11-02T18:03:26-04:00

What I would like to know is does he have a history of APFT failure prior to these events? Why has he failed the last three events on the run was its a few seconds or by ten minutes? I would be hard pressed to kick a junior NCO out just over an APFT. If he was a productive NCO that is still doing his job and has a good history I would let him ETS rather than be petty. The chain of command has a learning moment from this if the pay attention.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Nov 2 at 2019 9:45 PM

2019-11-02T21:45:34-04:00

I can only speak of what I would aimce I had a similar situation on my 1st company command: let him ETS and move on. If he desires to re-enlisted then he need to overcome a few hurdles , then let him re-up. Commanders have some discretion since at the end we are dealing with human beings.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2019 12:22 PM

2019-11-04T12:22:10-05:00

After that many years service I would let him ETS. There is already a bar in place to prevent reuping.

Response by 1SG Leroy Lucero made Jan 25 at 2020 8:06 AM

2020-01-25T08:06:30-05:00

It seems to me that they shouldn’t have sent him over there. You need to look at the regulations and see what it states. I’ve been out almost 11 years, so I don’t know if the refs have changed, but I would give him a recorded pt test in 90 days but give him a diagnostic every 30 days until he hit the record pt test date.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2020 9:39 AM

2020-02-08T09:39:08-05:00

Let the guy ETS. He is obviously going through a rought time.l and the fact that inprovement is being shown shows initiative. More importantly, three record apft failures with only one counseling and no diagnostic tests leads me to believe the unit is not going their part either...

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Feb 28 at 2020 2:45 PM

2020-02-28T14:45:53-05:00

Wow. This is a good one. From my Bragg experiences, that NCO would be GONE! There wouldn't be any debate about it! He'd have gotten f---ed and f---ed hard! Bear in mind, this would be anywhere in 319th Airborne Field Artillery. 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Battalion. I've seen where the leadership would consider all of the other variables in the other battalions in the Division, as well as outside of the 82nd. This is a VERY interesting question.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Feb 28 at 2020 2:57 PM

2020-02-28T14:57:19-05:00

What I can say from experience is THIS is an entirely different Army from when I came in. I didn't cause any problems while I was in, didn't have any APFT failures, disciplinary actions, and always made tape during height & weight. But I still couldn't get promoted on time, nor was I allowed to re-enlist (I needed one to do the other going either way). I completely busted my hump and got the short end of the stick while people who messed up consistently got chance after chance and some of them are STILL SERVING on active duty.

Response by MAJ Damajah Arnold made Apr 27 at 2020 10:43 AM

2020-04-27T10:43:59-04:00

I think the extent of the commands authority would be to flag him for failing the AFPT, then barring him from reenlistment. I also suspect that we don’t know the whole story.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2020 9:03 PM

2020-05-25T21:03:23-04:00

Yes, no different than if a first termer who was a habitual failing individual was processed for separation under same circumstances...leadership not likership

Response by 1SG Leroy Lucero made May 26 at 2020 6:03 PM

2020-05-26T18:03:42-04:00

He is an SSG in the US Army. They should kick him out unless his inability to pass a pt test was caused by a medical condition!

Response by SGT Zander Allison made Jun 21 at 2020 2:12 PM

2020-06-21T14:12:26-04:00

Soldier is almost out and barely needs to worry about this, PTing on his own, and still improving toward the standard? Give this man an AAM and ship him out

Response by SMSgt Bob Wilson made Nov 2 at 2020 9:47 AM

2020-11-02T09:47:26-05:00

The old what if mentality of what happens if, at the last minute, the NCO decides to re-enlist? Recommend the unit put the soldier on a remedial physical fitness program whereby he/she reports to a gym. Is the soldier working in ACAP or preparing for discharge? The SGM has a good comment

Response by 1SG Timothy Lincoln made Nov 2 at 2020 9:01 PM

2020-11-02T21:01:07-05:00

Allow the ETS
Article 15 his first line leader for failure to lead!