Would you follow Illegal Orders?

SGT Gary Frank — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 21:56:16 -0500

It has been over 30 years since I swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States. This oath is as sacred to me today as it was yesterday.

Today, it seems that our Individual Rights are under attack. That said, If given an order that violates the liberties afforded by the Bill of Rights should Commanders and or Troops feel obligated to follow it?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 10:03 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 22:03:15 -0500

I am waiting for another R and hopefully rectify the problems of today. Like Reagan did.

Response by SGT Gary Frank made Nov 24 at 2013 10:10 PM

SGT Gary Frank — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 22:10:46 -0500

Before some says "Yes, if state Martial Law is issued" remember was the First 10 Amendments in the Bill of Rights say. then please state which Amendment allows Martial Law to supersede and or violate American Liberties.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Nov 24 at 2013 10:17 PM

SSG Laureano Pabon — Sun, 24 Nov 2013 22:17:52 -0500

I would wonder the same, as long as it doesn't violate the Geneva convention, commanders would find it very difficult to answer this one, if the orders come from the president of the US, and it appears to be illegal I would see impeachment in that future.

But for me if I were a commander I would have to wait for that order to be given first before I would be able to give a truthful and accurate answer.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 8:31 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:31:26 -0500

OK, I'll be the first Officer to jump on this land mine.

Soldiers: Soldiers have to follow orders. So As I see it they would have to follow the orders of those above them.

Before anybody jumps in with "Remember the Nazi's following orders isn't an excuse."
Let me remind you, that all those folks on trial were Officers, not Enlisted soldiers of the German Army.

Which brings me to part 2; Officers:

Officers have a duty, not to the President, but to the Constitution. If the order given, no matter the source, is unlawful (violates the constitution), Immoral, or unethical The Officer has a duty, to not only NOT follow the order, but to stop the order from going further.

In some instances this means confronting the source of the order, and sometimes it means relieving a superior officer. Neither is a desirerable position for an Officer (at any level)

This responsibility is one of the reasons Officers have a heavier load of responsibility.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 4:21 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:21:31 -0500

As I recall my oath was to defend the Constitution of the United States against enemies foreign and domestic. If given an unconstitutional order I know I will not follow it. However, I will also be hoping and praying for a real good lawyer.

Response by LTC David B. made Aug 10 at 2014 2:05 AM

LTC David B. — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 02:05:33 -0400

Commanders always have legal counsel available to them. I've had to ask mine on numerous occasions if an order was lawful. Unfortunately, those giving commanders those orders also have legal counsel so this can easily become a matter of differing legal opinions.....I know, I know......that NEVER happens, right?! At the end of the day, the lawyer will simply say "I gave my opinion" and it's the commander who has to make the decision.

There's also those instances like happened in the 172nd IN BDE down range. An E7 ordered a couple of E5s to kill a couple of Iraqis; illegally. No ROE violation had been committed.....the E7 was high on killing; playing God. One of the E5s said he knew it was wrong, BUT feared for his life......so he pulled the trigger. To me, this is the paradox I see in this question. Could you resist following an illegal order even when it might mean you could lose your life? I've never been in this situation.....I know what I want to say I would do but I don't think anyone really knows until they're faced with the decision of which end of the weapon they're going to face.....

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Aug 17 at 2014 6:55 AM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Sun, 17 Aug 2014 06:55:33 -0400

I can say there are several Sheriffs here in AZ who have stated they will not follow commands from DC regarding the 2nd ammendment and illegal immigration. I would not uphold an illegal order.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Jun 5 at 2015 7:14 PM

COL Mikel J. Burroughs — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 19:14:02 -0400

You have to use the best possible judgment you can in every situation. We have lost a lot of key generals recently because they didn't agree with the Commander in Chief's policies. All military personnel need to have the courage to make those types of decisions in their careers. If you know its wrong than don't do it even if you have to go down with your own ship!

Response by SGT Kevin Brown made Jun 5 at 2015 7:20 PM

SGT Kevin Brown — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 19:20:49 -0400

I'm not on active duty anymore and I actually retire from the reserves in a week, but I have said no to this my entire career. Even though we swear to follow the lawful orders of those positions above us, including the president, none of us work for any particular man and his agendas. Any order that violates our oath to uphold and defend the constitution is unlawful, no matter whose mouth it comes out of, and should not only not be followed, but service members have an obligation to stop it from happening otherwise. Though it is our job to get the mission do and follow orders, we all have a moral obligation to check all orders for lawfulness and its compatibility with the Constitution (for most orders this takes about 3 seconds and doesn't require anything more then a little common sense).

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 7:28 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 19:28:14 -0400

I could not follow that order. By definition, it would be an illegal order.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 7:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 19:32:28 -0400

Illegal, Immoral, Unethical. I do not have to follow this order. That is all.

Response by SPC Candace Leach made Jun 5 at 2015 7:33 PM

SPC Candace Leach — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 19:33:18 -0400

To be honest on that part to obey orders to cause harm I'm sorry but I wouldn't even follow those types of orders. Even if I'm giving orders and I feel that it's not right, I will question it and if it causes harm to citizens I won't even follow them. Even if sone one can't stand up for themselves and ny command gives me orders to do harm to them, I can't do that and if it would cause me to get NJP for not following those types of orders, so be it. Just being honest on that!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jun 5 at 2015 7:34 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 19:34:07 -0400

If you honestly believe an order to be in conflict with the Constitution, ESCALATE it. It's that simple.

Those who give the order have an obligation to clarify the conflict where possible or reasonable. But as COL Mikel J. Burroughs said "If you know its wrong" don't do it. It's better to be judged for not doing something for the right reasons, than for doing something for the wrong reasons, in my humble opinion.

Response by Sgt Cody Dumont made Jun 5 at 2015 8:38 PM

Sgt Cody Dumont — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 20:38:16 -0400

This is a tuff one, in some cases I would say yes others I would say no. Case by case call.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Jun 5 at 2015 9:08 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 21:08:24 -0400

No chance in hell.

Response by PO3 David Miller made Jun 5 at 2015 9:13 PM

PO3 David Miller — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 21:13:41 -0400

I have sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States, and I will do just that. I don't care who gives the order, or the punishment. If it goes against the Constitution , I will not obey it.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Jun 5 at 2015 9:19 PM

CPT Ahmed Faried — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 21:19:01 -0400

Pretty sure we've covered this.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jun 5 at 2015 9:34 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 21:34:47 -0400

That depends, am I under orders to participate in policing up the public during martial law? Then the answer is yes. Just every day without justification? NO.

Response by MSgt Robert Slagle made Jun 5 at 2015 9:36 PM

MSgt Robert Slagle — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 21:36:50 -0400

An order to violate another's constitutional rights is no order at all. You have zero obligation to follow unlawful orders. In fact, you are obligated to disobey and report the violator.

Response by MAJ Anne McGee made Jun 5 at 2015 10:53 PM

MAJ Anne McGee — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 22:53:47 -0400

As long as you are prepared to defend your decision at a Courts Martial then you're good. Remember your oath.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 6 at 2015 8:32 AM

PO1 John Miller — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 08:32:35 -0400

Absolutely not. But I would make damn sure it was an illegal order before I refuse to obey it.

Just because I may not agree with an order, or it may be unethical, it may not necessarily be illegal.

Response by SSG Martin Fox made Jun 6 at 2015 8:59 AM

SSG Martin Fox — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 08:59:51 -0400

Um. No. That would be an illegal order. I took an oath to defend the Constitutiion and the country against all threats foreign and DOMESTIC.

Response by Sgt Tommy Johnson made Jun 6 at 2015 10:00 AM

Sgt Tommy Johnson — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 10:00:38 -0400

Yes! Without a doubt, I would willingly and enthusiastically obey any orders that in my estimation were "lawful orders," which, as a consequence, violated another American citizen's Constitutional Rights, based upon accomplishing a "greater good" for some other person(s) and dependent on the immediate situation. Life is full of "judgment calls." And, sometimes "hard choices" must be made. Furthermore, if my obedience to such an order caused harm or injury to another American citizen, or even resulted in their death, if in the "grand scheme of things" my obedience of the order upheld my oath of service, I'd follow those orders diligently.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made Jun 6 at 2015 10:04 AM

SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 10:04:38 -0400

Since the only time a Service Member would encounter this problem is under conditions Martial Law the whole question of Constitutional Rights is moot.

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Jun 6 at 2015 10:06 AM

SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 10:06:51 -0400

Just by joining the military you are surrendering some constitutional rights, and by the same measure, civilians who do certain things, have constitutional rights violated daily in accordance with the very same constitution.

So, if an order is legal, and results on some citizen losing some rights, so be it. Fine with me.

Response by SGT Quillian Valk made Jun 6 at 2015 10:12 AM

SGT Quillian Valk — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 10:12:05 -0400

I took an oath to defend the Constitution first and foremost.

Response by SPC Americo Garcia made Jun 6 at 2015 10:42 AM

SPC Americo Garcia — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 10:42:14 -0400

I would never take arms against any lawful citizen ever. I would take it up against an enemy that wants to attack the United States by any means. The person could be any of us with our kids. I will not take any of the People's arms away. I will not cause death nor bodily injury to them either. I would say SGT or Sir, I have a problem with this order. I understand It violates the same rights I stand for as Marine. I swore to uphold the constitution and sure enough I will. I can not or will not if it meant that we are spitting in the eyes of our founding fathers how would they feel if they saw the audacity to overstep our bounds and trample all over the constitution which gives the People the power over our government. It is not the government that holds the power but sure want it to seem that way.

Response by SSG John Bacon made Jun 6 at 2015 11:04 AM

SSG John Bacon — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 11:04:55 -0400

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

You do not Follow Unlawful Orders given to you by the President or the officers Appointed over you.

Response by SFC Timothy DeWitte made Jun 6 at 2015 2:16 PM

SFC Timothy DeWitte — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 14:16:25 -0400

It would be an illegal order.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2015 3:16 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 15:16:00 -0400

Can you give some context to this. It sounds simple but to what point would an Active Duty member be doing to give an order to regular citizen? Federal Troops really shouldn't be used on domestic soil unless the most severe situation would have occurred. The only ones that really can operate domestically are the National Guards. If they get called out they there usually is a State of Emergency. After all you were in the National Guard. You should realize this.

And what right would be violated? In Hurricane Katrina soldiers disbursed crowds. They could say that their right to peacefully assemble was violated.

I don't think this is a question really. It is more or less a nod to the notion of the Government will try to take your rights and attack the people.

Response by SGT John Wesley made Jun 6 at 2015 8:17 PM

SGT John Wesley — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 20:17:15 -0400

Just simply no.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 6 at 2015 8:18 PM

LTC Bink Romanick — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 20:18:18 -0400

I hear this BS all the time. just what rights are you losing?

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 6 at 2015 8:24 PM

LTC Bink Romanick — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 20:24:19 -0400

So now we are all constitutional lawyers? Nonsensical question... Name the rights that you're losing or the ones that Fox told that your losing?

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 6 at 2015 9:10 PM

LTC Bink Romanick — Sat, 06 Jun 2015 21:10:31 -0400

Yes now we will have a constitutional lawyer in every tank platoon interpreting every order that the LT gives...since we don't have crew seats for an additional body , he can ride in a bustle rack.

Are we saying that PFC joe Shit the ragman from East Crows ass Nj gets to interpret orders?

We get it... You don't like the current administration and are so politicized by your dislike that you imagine nonsense like this.

Of course no one will follow illegal orders.

Granite 6 Charlie Mike out

Response by CPL Matthew Victor Spagnuolo made Jun 8 at 2015 12:14 AM

CPL Matthew Victor Spagnuolo — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 00:14:23 -0400

I would NOT & will not EVER FOLLOW ANY UNLAWFULL ORDER that is illegal or unethical! If u do your just as guilty as the man/woman who gave such an order. Nazi's said they where just "following orders" in order to avoid the facts that they allowed it ALL to happen. So that is my take on bullshit orders that are NOT APPROPRIATE UNDERSTAND ANY CIRCUMSTANCE! NOT JUST NO! BUT, HELL NO! Sir! Respectably Sir I must decline your UNLAWFULL Order Sir!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 9:35 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Jun 2015 09:35:58 -0400

I'll respond before I start reading comment in an effort to be as honest as possible.

Generally speaking, If I was given an order to violate the rights of another, It better be pretty obvious that the orders seem justifiable. I can't imagine more than very drastic circumstances. Something like there's open war in the US from invaders, and the order comes down that no weapons are allowed through checkpoints or something. Would I follow this order? Likely. Would I shoot an unarmed person in the face? Highly not likely.

Something a bit more relevant, perhaps: If I was ordered to lock and load an M4 and stand outside city hall, prevent traffic, and intimidate protesters? I'd probably leave an empty mag in the weapon, or no mag at all.

When we sign up, especially enlisted personnel, we are not leaders, and there's a necessary amount of trust we must place on our selected and elected officials. These are the people we agreed to serve and obey for the betterment of the Constitution and ultimately, the People.

However, I'm now separated, so I'll do whatever I think is right, government and authority be damned, until such time that I again swear an oath of enlistment. Which looks increasingly likely as I'll likely feel compelled to sign up if again we go to war. Probably see if the marines need a corpsman who's embarrassingly good at paperwork.