Xenophobia is never pretty...

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 22:08:01 -0400

*Edit for clarity*

So after reviewing all the below comments and responses, it's apparent that there are a few divergent arguments being had, few if which address the intended message of the OP at all.

Hopefully I can add some clarity. The intended message is this; " we should not be judging people by race, ethnicity, or origin. Individuals should be each assessed on their individual abilities, skills, and merit.".

That's it. Any other message was not intended. I find the practice of judging others for genetic happenstance to be abhorrent.

http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140925/NEWS05/309250074/DoD-policy-will-allow-some-immigrants-U-S-illegally-serve?sf31602802=1

Response by SPC David S. made Sep 25 at 2014 10:14 PM

SPC David S. — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 22:14:48 -0400

Hey SSG Hasbun I think I know where you're going with this but as I don't want to assume can you rephrase your comment in the form of a question?

Response by Cpl Aaron Nelson made Sep 26 at 2014 8:29 AM

Cpl Aaron Nelson — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 08:29:22 -0400

This is a bad idea on so many levels, I don't even know where to start.

Response by PO3 Shaun Taylor made Sep 26 at 2014 8:42 AM

PO3 Shaun Taylor — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 08:42:32 -0400

I understand the intent, but think it would increase the number of illegal immigrants.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Sep 26 at 2014 8:57 AM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 08:57:56 -0400

I think they should be able to serve and if they complete a tour of duty (enlistment) successfully and honorably, then an expedited process done so they can gain their citizenship.

Response by 1SG Chris Brown made Sep 26 at 2014 10:11 AM

1SG Chris Brown — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 10:11:25 -0400

I'm not even sure how this could ever be legal, though I'm sure if they want to find a way around the law, someone will figure it out! Thinking of all the checks and paperwork that must be completed with a recruiter, how could someone that is "undocumented" ever enter the military when, by definition, they are unable to provide the documentation necessary? I hope we don't go down this road. I agree that it's crap that we are kicking out personnel now and don't think the answer then is to bring in people that should be deported!!

Response by SSG Jacob Wiley made Sep 26 at 2014 10:18 AM

SSG Jacob Wiley — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 10:18:47 -0400

I will tell you why the American burger flipper is a better recruit than an Lithuanian rocket scientist - because he/she is AMERICAN. Is the Lithuanian in this country legally (*which makes them a naturalized citizen*), or are they hiding trying not to get deported? Xenophobia? How about patriotism and loyalty to one's countrymen?

The United States of America is the land of opportunity, the melting pot, and through all her faults – the greatest nation on Earth. Millions have immigrated here to live our American dream and they have done so legally. What does this “policy”, a term I use loosely, tell everyone? To the individual/family that spent a handsome sum to immigrate legally and become American citizens, it tells them it was a waste. It tells them they could have lied and cheated the system to obtain their citizenship. It tells them that doing the right thing and having integrity doesn’t matter. Those who show no regard for our country or her laws are rewarded with a chance to serve in the most honorable profession this nation has to offer. The Oath of Enlistment states, “"I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States…” How does one who blatantly breaks this country’s laws and has no regard for the constitution genuinely swear an oath to support and defend that very thing? It’s impossible.

To the service member currently deployed and in harm’s way receiving a “pink slip”, or the man or woman has served honorably but has not achieved a high enough rank, it tells them that the DoD is betraying them. They are no longer good enough to do this nation’s bidding. It tells them, despite all the briefings pertaining to Soldier well being and the “we care about you” talks, that it’s all a lie. It affirms that we are an expendable item; kite strings that can be cut at any time despite our loyalty and sacrifices. We are American citizens, by birth or naturalization, yet we can no longer serve our country? We are being tossed to the side for a lack of funding – yet somehow there is a substantial amount of money to employ individuals who are in this country illegally, are not protected by the constitution, and are not privy to the rights that we all share as Americans. Calling this an injustice is a drastic understatement.

What honor is there in creating a policy which highlights that crime pays? How can any service uphold their “values” when the DoD decides that Respect, Honor, and Integrity can be conveniently ignored to suit an agenda? As service members, our loyalty is to our country – where is the leadership’s loyalty to us?

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Sep 26 at 2014 10:36 AM

SPC Christopher Smith — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 10:36:55 -0400

Anyone questioning how this could be legal, stop and think about all the German scientist we employed during WWII. This is not something new and foriegn (pun intended), this is about aquiring the BEST talent and maintaining a strong fighting force. That starts with having the best technologist, sciencist, and medical personnel. With our education taking a nose dive compared to some of our allies, we should be looking to pull some of their talent for ourselves.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Sep 26 at 2014 11:24 AM

LTC Paul Labrador — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 11:24:32 -0400

As an immigrant, I have issues with allowing folks who are here illegally to serve. No issues with legal aliens signing up. The more you legitimize bad behavior (ie illegal immigration) the more you encourage it. To me it's not an issue of xenophobia, but following the laws. Now, i also don't see an issue of recruiting from some of these nations either. It gives people a legal outlet to immigrate to the US and it allows the US to vette the people coming in.

Now if you want to talk xenophobic policy, how about the law that only natural born citizens can serve as president? I think that one is a bit unfair. Who is to say that a person who has lived here their entire life, but wasn't born here, is less trustworthy than say my younger brother, who has the same parents, same influences, but was lucky enough to be born here.

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Sep 26 at 2014 12:00 PM

SSG Pete Fleming — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 12:00:54 -0400

I see nothing wrong with granting citizenship for honorable military service, as long as they don't have a criminal record form their home/native country. They might be illegally, but if they serve, I think that have earned their right.

But, I have mixed emotions on the whole illegal thing anyway. The vast majority come and do jobs I don't want, nor does the average 'America'. They are decent people just trying to better themselves, I get that. But they are illegal, and that doesn't set well with me because so many people try to come here the right way and can't. So now someone comes here illegally, gets amnesty or have anchor babies... while the other person who pays the immigration fees and such still can't get a VISA. That I have issue with.

We should revise the entry system, we should revise, the work rules for migrant workers, and we should eliminate the anchor baby loophole. (If mommy daddy aren't here legally, neither are you).

But if someone enters illegally (yes they broke the law) but go to a recruiting station, pass the criminal check, then they serve honorably, why not. I do think perhaps there should some kind of penalty for being illegal in the first place, like you must serve overseas at reduced rate or something. Because you shouldn't be rewarded for your action however... if you're a good fit and are willing to serve...

With that said, I have a huge problem with getting rid of (cutting back) current personnel then opening the door for illegals. That is beyond wrong. Keep what you have. But it is a common cost saving measure done in business all the time. Cut the higher paid people and bring in new people at a lower cost, reduced long term expenses (retirement and such), don't have the 'bad habits' that older employees have, and such.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Sep 26 at 2014 2:34 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 14:34:21 -0400

Personally I fail to understand why my not supporting allowing ILLEGAL immigrants to serve in my country's armed forces makes me a Xenophobe. These are individuals who either through their own actions or those of their families have illegally entered this nation, and more likely than not, been the recipient of benefits that they are not entitled to, and do not contribute to the support of those programs they draw from. I have no issue with individuals who have entered into this country legally and are in the process of becoming citizens of this country, serving in the armed forces, to me they deserve the opportunity to serve and excel, unlike those who care not for the laws and policies of the nation they have crept into. I still do not understand how it is we welcome illegals with open arms and benefits, when almost every other nation has harsh penalties in place and utilized for the same type of actions in their nations.........

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2014 3:24 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 15:24:45 -0400

SFC William Swartz Jr - SFC Michael Hasbun

William. You are not a Xenophobe because you reject illegal aliens getting citizenship. The whole context is a pretext and a bald faced lie.

Michael -
The term 'Merica' itself pisses me off. It is an underhanded attempt to marginalize people who are fiercely proud of their country. It would probably include those who might be considered 'redneck' and that is the crux of this issue. The people that most support this carte blanche legalization of illegal immigrants are being disingenuous because many of these illegal aliens are not scientists but a way to gather more votes.

One gets the distinct notion that some want to win elections by any means possible to win elections and then uses this idea of highly skilled workers as cover, which is definitely is. So in the appearance of fairness (ha!) some perpetrate their dogmas by judicial fiat. Nice try but not buying that.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2014 7:22 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 19:22:19 -0400

Good luck getting a security clearance. Seems as though that's a requirement for one, but also not committing any felonies is kinda important too.

*I* never understand why something illegal is brushed away by some. They are committing a felony, you don't see an issue. But I bet if some private is walking outside without headgear on you freak out.

One isn't a law at all but rather an arbitrary thing that you are required to enforce, the other is a federal law that you don't care about. HMMMM....about that bridge...

Also, for me it's not about the immigrants. It's about following the law and doing it the right way. It's like the difference between someone waiting in line or skipping to the front and screwing over the people doing the RIGHT thing.

And for everyone that says "well they are just trying to help their families". Well great, but robbing a bank to help your family is a crime as well. And illegals cost taxpayer money, so while it's not as obvious that they are "stealing", they really are. Right out of my pocket.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2014 7:29 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 19:29:27 -0400

SFC So and So commits a federal offense, he gets kicked out. Illegal immigrant so and so commits a federal offense, and gets signed up by the Army. How does that even pass the common sense test?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2014 7:52 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 19:52:31 -0400

“We’re just not sure how many within that existing population of DACA would have the linguistic skills to qualify,” said one defense official familiar with the policy change. “These are kids who entered the country at a fairly young age and have basically grown up in the United States, so the limit of their language talents would probably be the language that they received at home.”

Well, they may want to keep checking on that one.

"Those targeted by recruiters under the MAVNI program likely will be immigrants with language skills critical to national security, such as Arabic, Chinese, Pashto or Persian."

This is slightly concerning. I'd have to check out this topic a little more, I think.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Sep 26 at 2014 9:03 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 21:03:19 -0400

The big question is "Why" are they Illegal. What specifically makes them "Illegal". Technically one of my Great Grandfathers was "Illegal". At the time there was a Professional Quota System and his brothers lied on his background/skill sets. The United States was looking from Seamstresses, So somehow (Male) William Wesling who entered Ellis Island as a 12 yr old from a family of Butchers/Farmers is processed out of Ellis Island into the US as Willie Wesling (Female) Seamstress. Hmmmm.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Sep 26 at 2014 9:16 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 21:16:28 -0400

I also have a problem with the Xenophobia in this country. I find it concerning. A reasonable question how many are actual "Illegals" and how many are just Latinos who's language skills are not up to snuff and it just another label we can pin on them. Also how much of our "Infrastructure" is provided by Illegals. What would happen if by some Miracle that we could actually magically get rid of all "Illegals" and come to find out all our major Metropolitan Cities could not function and our Crops and Meat could not be processed because guess what? it was illegals providing us with these resources.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Sep 27 at 2014 9:06 AM

Cpl Glynis Sakowicz — Sat, 27 Sep 2014 09:06:20 -0400

I am totally against it, and this is why:
Is it, or is it not still part of entering the military, to show you have not been convicted of a crime? If so, being in a country without propper documentation is still a crime, is it not?
Secondly, I recall several non-citizens that I served with, though they were all in America legally, and they each stated that they had a skill set that made them attractive to the government, such as a language that was necessary, or an ability that was seriously in demand.
NOW... living in a border state, I KNOW that many of those who are entering this country, are not of South American citizenship. There have been MANY who have crossed illegally lately, from Asia, Europe and the Middle East. That said, I think back to the non-citizens who served with me, who made those comments about having needed skillsets. With all that is going on in the Middle East at this time, I wonder how easy it would be, for say... an illegal of Middle Eastern descent, to walk into a recruiting office, and be met with happy smiles due to their language abilities alone?
Lets have a show of hands, keeping in mind all the 'Blue on Green" attacks there were/are, and the idea that we'd be not only training them, but putting weapons into their hands... and putting them into large crowds (AKA Targets of Opportunity) on our military bases, now, honestly, how many of us would like to have that senario acted out, on a base containing our spouses and children?
I am not Xenephobic, what I am is realistic. I'd take a legal burger-flipper any day, over someone who has an agenda that contains "kill the infidel" as their mental mindset.

Response by Cpl Luke Sanchez made Sep 27 at 2014 5:17 PM

Cpl Luke Sanchez — Sat, 27 Sep 2014 17:17:15 -0400

In a country where available jobs is tripled by the unemployment rate we should not give illegal immigrants jobs for americans and legal immigrants. President Obama has a duty to its citizens but he is saying screw you I want a bigger democratic party. The commander in chief is a self serving bastard. He has repetitively lied and violated the constitution and you still can't see who he is because you have phobophobia to all issues, fearing to be labeled a xenophobe, etc. You fear not being politically correct. Obama and mass media have taken your balls and its time that you go get them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2014 12:46 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:46:38 -0400

If someone is willing to go so far as breaking immigration laws, what other laws are they willing to break once they get here? People that were born here can't get into the military these days because of stupid misdemeanors, but people who break immigration laws are ok to join? Please tell me in what world that ISN'T hypocritical?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2014 2:43 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Sep 2014 02:43:31 -0400

Allowing people, who are here illegally (for those who don't understand that means they BROKE THE LAW), to serve in the military is NOT xenophobia. The article is very deceptive and highly inaccurate. I have absolutely no problem with anyone from a different country to come to the U.S. of A. to make something of themselves. I do want them to do so properly and legally just as my parents did so in the late 60s.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Sep 28 at 2014 9:06 AM

Cpl Glynis Sakowicz — Sun, 28 Sep 2014 09:06:33 -0400

SSG Michael Hasbun, there was one other thing that bothered me about your posting, when you stated that we would be better off with illegals from Lithuania in the military, versus people from the local burger barn.
Apparently, you have never worked at a fast food resturant. I have. At the time I was just out of the Marines, needing a job that would work with me, since I had an autistic child that no day-care would accept, and a great desire to earn a paycheck. The husband worked night shift at the squadron, I worked breakfast shift at Burger King, and let me tell you, its not easy, nor is it going to make you rich, but it was a paycheck.
Those who worked with me were a LOT of students, Young parents who were trying to earn a living, and those just out of school. I can tell you, yes, there were a few who were hired because the manager felt they needed a chance to earn a living, but most were bright, intelligent, and wanting better, but few jobs will give you the options of working around baby sitters, day-care, or a 'first-job' as these places will.
Before you insult a great many people, you should consider that a LOT of us started our work lives in fast food, or found themselves in those jobs while waiting for something better.... Just saying...

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2014 11:23 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Sep 2014 11:23:29 -0400

Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal Courage

Of all of those, the biggest issue many have is the one they themselves have to account for, Integrity. This policy forces soldiers to ignore all Army Values but none more that Integrity. Each one of the people who enters service under this policy can never expect other service members to believe they have Integrity. The very status of their citizenship denies them of this value. The military is not a catch all or a quick fix for the problems that politicians create, we are not a test site for PC policy. We exist to secure our country and our rules, regulations and traditions exist to make the difficult task of doing our jobs possible. Any erosion of our culture, especially one that effects the violation of our Values, impacts us more than civilians or politicians can understand.
This is a bad idea for those in the military, and those that would seek to circumvent the honorable and legal route to citizenship. This is an insult to all of those who became citizens legally.
I can not stress enough how much this policy forces the military to accept the failure of public policy and damages the Integrity of the individual and the military as a whole. We are not a social science testing ground. This policy has no right to be imposed upon us.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2014 7:39 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Sep 2014 19:39:45 -0400

To back it up with several others. I agree, opposing ILLEGAL immigrants from serving in our military is not Xenophonia. It's called national security. I served with legal immigrants during my service. Sure many of you have as well. You want to serve get proper documentation. I hear the French Foriegn Legion is still looking.

Response by PO1 Steven Kuhn made Sep 29 at 2014 1:47 PM

PO1 Steven Kuhn — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 13:47:51 -0400

I believe that we were all created by a loving God. I believe every person, every life is of value. I do believe that in America the primary language is and should remain English. I feel that people who immigrate to our country should conform to the unity intended in the words, "United" States. I also believe that America was made great in part due to immigrants, but those immigrants came to leave their old country behind and adopt a new way of life. My only problem with some immigrants is that they refuse to learn English and that they insist on everything in America being changed to suit their preferences. This may be politically incorrect but, if you do not like our Flag, our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, our Freedom of Religion, Press, Assembly, and speech, our Pledge of Allegiance to our Flag, or our National Anthem, then please accept my earnest assistance in either helping you to understand why they are precious to us or helping you pack to return to your country of origin if you like the life you left more than the country you came to. I also believe that anyone who comes here illegally shows no respect for our laws from the very start and should be removed or forced to do extra to show that their attitude and allegiance have shifted.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2014 3:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 15:23:45 -0400

SSG Hasbun, apparently it's YOU who has not only missed the point but you have blatantly and dishonestly accused many people of being against immigration. YOU are the one who is focused on race, ethnicity or nationality not us. I can't speak for anyone on here but I will bet most will agree with this next part.

I DON'T care about the ethnicity, race, skin color, or nationality of a person. If a person wishes to come here to OUR country then they need to do so properly and legally. Using Mexico as the example since it's generally the primary focus of illegals. Two Mexican men come across the border into Texas. One has spent the last five years studying about the U.S., saving money, has applied for a passport and a work visa in order to find work here and to eventually attain U.S. citizenship. The other spent one month finding a "coyote" to pay him $1K to smuggle him into the country. I welcome the first and reject the second regardless of their skill sets. THAT is what many of us desire, and contrary to what you believe, is not xenophobia.

I don't care what country people come from whether it's Mexico, Guatemala, Venezuela, Japan, China, Thailand, Korea, Iraq, Germany, Spain, etc, as long as they do it properly. Again, regardless of the country they come from, if they do so illegally then they need to be thrown in jail and deported. BTW, my parents are legal immigrants from Costa Rica and Colombia.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Sep 29 at 2014 9:15 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 21:15:00 -0400

Xenophobia is the unreasoned fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange. What part of limiting those who, by definition, are here illegally is unreasoned or fearful?

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Sep 30 at 2014 5:43 AM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 05:43:07 -0400

xenophobia - intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries.

I don't think one argument here touches upon an immigrant's race or their hatred or fear of people from other countries. The only thing in question is these peoples' non-biased immigration status. By entering this country illegally they have already committed a crime so why do we want them in the military? We generally kick people out for criminal behavior. Gone are the "Join the military or go to jail days"

What I fear is the unknown and what these illegal immigrants may be harboring in terms of potential harm to the US, regardless of their race creed or religion.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2014 8:09 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 08:09:51 -0400

It is not xenophobic to exclude criminals from service. Period.

Individuals should be each assessed on their individual abilities, skills, and merit. A criminal does not merit enlistment in the US military.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Sep 30 at 2014 2:01 PM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 14:01:26 -0400

Remember immigrants by definition are legal. Lotsa folks confuse them with aliens, who can be either legal or illegal. Your typical wetback is an illegal alien.

Response by COL Randall C. made Sep 30 at 2014 5:11 PM

COL Randall C. — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 17:11:22 -0400

I admit I'm Xenophobic. I think Martians are up to no good (always trying to steal our women, melt our brains, etc).

SFC Michael Hasbun, I think the confusion from your statement is that you have a link to a story about illegal immigrants being allowed to serve in the military, but your statement that your intended message was "we should not be judging people by race, ethnicity, or origin. Individuals should be each assessed on their individual abilities, skills, and merit." doesn't have anything to do with the story (I've looked through it and nowhere does it mention anything about race, ethnicity, or origin).

As has been pointed out many times, 'illegal' does not equal 'race, ethnicity or origin' and any attempt to conflate the two is disingenuous.

I suggest you either find an article showing where people are being judged based on race, ethnicity or origin or change the premise of your statement to 'we should not be judging people by legal immigration status. Individuals should be each assessed on their individual abilities, skills, and merit.' Either would be factually correct for the discussion.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Oct 2 at 2014 12:02 PM

Col Joseph Lenertz — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 12:02:11 -0400

I think the author left out one critical and necessary piece of how "Individuals should be assessed...". They should be assessed by their Actions. Illegally entering the US is an Action, unrelated to any genetic happenstance, and can and should be judged according to the merit of the action.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Oct 29 at 2014 1:44 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Wed, 29 Oct 2014 13:44:11 -0400

To judge 1 person by race is to judge us all. After all, we are all human and following that reasoning we are all from the same race. Our world is made up of many different nations which break down into different cultures, ethnic groups, and beliefs, but still only ONE race, HUMAN!

Response by SGT William B. made Nov 5 at 2014 3:25 PM

SGT William B. — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 15:25:28 -0500

Just my two cents here:

Whenever this discussion comes up, the two main points that I see are that first, the immigrant broke US law by gaining entry illegally into the country, and two, the amount of money that those immigrants use through "abusing" social services like healthcare and public education for their children.

I can't debate #1: you'd have to be a fool to argue that those immigrants broke the law. It's #2 that usually throws me off, because one of the more common solutions I see is to "round up them illegals and deport them to Mexico because they're stealing our jobs and money!" Here's my take on it: if we're already a country that's struggling financially to reduce borrowing and pay down the debt, I cannot for the life of me find a solution to deporting nearly 20 million illegal immigrants without a significant expenditure on the part of the American taxpayer. Not only would you have to hire a HUGE amount of federal agents to support that level of work, but then you'd have to worry about their pay over time, because there's no way that we can just hire 100,000 ICE agents and they'd have all 20 million illegals in a prison awaiting deportation the next day.

This is an inequitable solution to a problem that will continue to persist, but yet, everyone keeps suggesting that either clogging our own prison systems (which are largely contracted out at exorbitant prices, mind you) or mass deportation of illegal immigrants is somehow less expensive than another possible solution. This will likely be an unpopular opinion, but personally, if you were to give me a year to plan and implement a solution, I'd vote for amnesty, and here's why:

1. If you give every illegal immigrant in the United States currently an opportunity within a three or six month window to claim their status, you have them pay a fee and register them. There's some second-order effects here, notably that those immigrants can now pay taxes, effectively contributing to the system that they were leeching off of.

2. If an illegal immigrant misses that registration window, it's tough noogies, you had your chance, back to your point of origin. We can also assume that illegal immigrants with a history of violent crime or drug involvement will likely not self-report, meaning that the incidence rate of those types being deported goes up, as the "legitimate" immigrants self-report and register while the scum hides.

3. We can determine what employers have been hiring illegal immigrants and fine them appropriately. Failure to comply or self-report results in mandatory jail time for the head of the business plus any advisory boards, minimum five years, for each offense discovered; to me, this only encourages self-reporting.

4. We can then start over and extend the provision of current labor laws to include that mandatory jail time sentence to businesses that knowingly hire illegal immigrants in an attempt to deter to any business looking to save money through doing so.

Again, this will likely be an unpopular opinion (it seems that this is one of those things where everyone is more content to attempt and cement their own moral superiority), but it seems to me at least to be the most reasonable solution to the problem. I grew up on the Arizona-Mexico border; many of my classmates were the children of illegal immigrants. Some of them turned out to be great people, and some of them were literal scum. I do feel that given the opportunity, some of those friends of mine would jump at the chance to pay a fine and legalize their status, but obviously, that's my own conjecture not rooted in any sort of fact. However, I believe the most firm solution that the country could work towards involves legalizing a large portion of the 20 million already here and involving them in paying for some of the finances needed to support our already over-extended health and education infrastructures.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2014 12:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 12:41:07 -0500

I sincerely hope that the downvotes are a result of lack of clarity.

I agree that prejudice is deplorable, but it comes from survival instincts. As such, it can help if used appropriately.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Nov 6 at 2014 1:45 PM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 13:45:57 -0500

So if I am against non-citizens to serve in the Army while the Government is busy cutting a third of our forces, that makes me a Xenophobe? That is ridiculous! When we become a service member, we take an oath. That oath is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. Can you make this promise if you are not a citizen and may not know anything about the Constitution? What we are forgetting here is being an American and joining the Service is a Privilege, not a right. We regularly turn away individuals because they don't score high enough, they have criminal records, etc., but want to reward criminal activity of the illegal immigrants by allowing them to join the service and become a citizen. If the argument is that it takes so long to become a citizen the legal way, then maybe your time would be better spent lobbying to change that process. I can't speak for everyone, but I would imagine that all of us are for immigration, we just want it done legally.