You can't "smoke" soldiers anymore. So... More article 15s?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 19:29:52 -0500

It's copied and pasted from APRT.COM but it's all there in the FM FM 7-22 Para 5-15. When exercise is used for corrective training or corrective action, it is often performed incorrectly, promoting <a href="http://www.armyaprt.com/prt-exercises/overtraining-syndrome.html">overtraining syndrome</a>, and overuse injuries. Often corrective action mimics “smoke sessions,” punishing Soldiers with little or no corrective value. Consideration must be given to the number of times per day exercises are used for corrective action for individual Soldiers and groups of Soldiers to avoid the cumulative effect and limit the potential for overtraining syndrome. The following guidelines should be followed when employing exercise as corrective action. Only the following exercises should be selected for performance of corrective action.  Rower.  Squat bender.  Windmill.  Prone row.  Push-up.  V-up.  Leg tuck and twist.  Supine bicycle.  Swimmer.  8-count push-up. Only one of the above exercises may be selected for each corrective action. The number of repetitions should not exceed FIVE for any one of the exercises listed above So there are only a few different options here, since making a soldier do 5 reps is a joke, and wont teach anything. Does that mean we should just write up 4856's for everything wrong a soldiers does? I understand the Army's worried about hazing, but taking away an effect means as punishment and leaving us with the only option to write up soldiers.  <div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="http://www.armyaprt.com/images/APFT-logo.png"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a href="http://www.armyaprt.com/prt-exercises/overtraining-syndrome.html" target="_blank">Army Overtraining Syndrome</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">Causes Of Overtraining Syndrome And Overuse Injuries. Safe progression for performance improvement is complex, involving many variables that impact success</div></div><div style="clear: both;"></div><div class="pta-box-hide"></div></div>

Response by SFC Aaron G. made Feb 19 at 2014 7:41 PM

SFC Aaron G. — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 19:41:16 -0500

What, if for instance, you have the soldier perform the squat bender - a four count exercise. You can have the soldier complete the five recommended reps in cadence on your count. Once you begin the exercise, you can call the cadence at a slow count, having the soldier hold each count for an extended period of time; 10-15 seconds seems reasonable to me. This was a tip given to me by a buddy of mine who just got of the DS trail.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 8:22 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 20:22:36 -0500

8-count push-ups every time then! Still better than in the AF. If I had an Airmen do PT as a corrective action I'd probably lose my line number!

Response by SPC Dan Goforth made Feb 20 at 2014 12:37 AM

SPC Dan Goforth — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 00:37:40 -0500

I personally feel that many soldiers I have seen would have benefited from a summarized Article 15 earlier in their careers. I'm one of them. However, I also feel that we need to get back to a more old school way of things, and smoking and wall to wall counselings are part of that. If those don't work, then you proceed with the necessary steps to pursue an Article 15.

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Feb 20 at 2014 12:39 AM

SFC Stephen P. — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 00:39:57 -0500

If your training does not address the deficiency, it is not corrective. If it does not help the soldier learn, it is not training.

PT in response to a non-PT infraction is simply punishment. It works in the same way that Skinner's electric shocks worked on rats, but it is not an ideal way to correct anything but the most minor of infractions.

Response by SSG Raymond F. made Feb 20 at 2014 12:42 AM

SSG Raymond F. — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 00:42:36 -0500

In cadence, Exercise! 1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9 -1! I have been out over 20 years but the crime should still fit the punishment IMO. Counseling by "smoking" a soldier is not PC now I guess. It worked on me as a private and for me as a NCO, this is how sissified our country has become.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 20 at 2014 8:23 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 08:23:16 -0500

We should never have been "smoking" Soldiers in the first place. Our purpose is to TRAIN them, not Punish. Only Commanders are authorized to impose punishment.. Smoking Soldiers is lazy, not leadership. Corrective training should specifically address and correct the deficiency. This takes creativity and effort on your part. Unless you're  training a Soldier who failed their APFT, physical exercises should not be anywhere near your thought processes...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 8:59 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 08:59:02 -0500

I'm not sure why you claim you can't smoke soldiers anymore if there are specific exercises to be used. Or why that means you should article 15 them rather than do the outlined exercises. I wanna say since my joining in 2004 I've seen maybe 10 instances where article 15/NJP was the proper course of action, meaning the infraction was severe enough that a mark needed to be made on their record.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 12:27 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 12:27:15 -0500

After reading all the comments on here, i find myself compelled to write something too. As an instructor in AIT, i deal with new soldiers on a daily basis and most of them are fresh out of high school. majority of them have no clue what discipline is. unlike FORSCOM, here in TRADOC we are bound by TR 350-6. that being said, as long as the punishment (corrective training) fits the infraction, we are able to come up with a variety of things for them to do. i believe that physical activities do leave a lasting impression on the soldiers alot better than writting a paper. majority of the crime i use mass punishment to make a point. by holding an entire class responsible for one person's actions, it ensures that everyone will be watching out for eachother. if the action is so severe that i must deal with a soldier one on one, i will sit the soldier down and explain the severity of the situation and put it on paper. i will counsel the soldier and ensure he or she understands why they are receiving their punishment. one example i have is soldiers are not allowed to smoke from 0500-1800. 3 soldiers were caught smoking at the DFAC. i wrote each individual up involved and then recommended UCMJ due to 0 tolorence. that is the most extreme case so far. soldiers here are not allowed to walk around by themselves. they must have a battle buddy at all times. in that instance i will drop the entire class, put them in the front leaning rest and make them go half way down and hold it while i explain what the cause was. for that instance i will hold the entire clas responsible for not looking out for their battle buddies. you have to address the issues on a case by case basis. if you have someone who is constantly screwing up you need to see if there is an underlying problem. dont just fix the surface. this is where most of the leaders have gone wrong these days. most leaders now a days dont care about their soldiers, you must mold these young individuals into the great soldiers you know they can be. dont expect perfection right off the bat. you need to teach, train, coach, and mentor them in order to get the respect, hardwork, and dedication out of them.

this is just my opinion. im sure i will catch some back lash from this but i dont care. these are my thoughts on the situation.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 12:47 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 12:47:56 -0500

SGT A, while the regulation states you can only do 5 REPITITONS that doesn't mean you can't have the Soldier stand up at Attention/At Ease then do the exercise again. It is legal and it DOES work. In addition, with the exception of the 8-count push-up, all the ther exercises are done as a 4-count exercise, therefore they are actually doing 10 push-ups.

Response by SSgt George Brown made Feb 20 at 2014 8:00 PM

SSgt George Brown — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 20:00:50 -0500

All because of a liberal news media that has never served. Did I say news media? I'm sorry, I meant liberal scream machine.

Response by CSM Stuart C. O'Black made Feb 20 at 2014 9:43 PM

CSM Stuart C. O'Black — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 21:43:50 -0500

Great responses on here but I agree with SFC Pate:"If your training does not address the deficiency, it is not corrective. If it does not help the soldier learn, it is not training. "  What is the goal of your SMOKE session? Think of that - is it punishment or just getting the Soldiers attention. If your pissed off and making them do ____ its punishment. Saluting ever Officer as they enter the DFAC for not saluting may be entertaining but it is not corrective training. It is embarrassing for the Soldier and truthfully I think a weak response to the offense. It could legally be the right corrective action but accomplished nothing. As another NCO here said "1000 words essay on army values (or any other important topic)... That would be Customs and Courtesies. My ramblings please excuse: For those who ever served with me: Have I just dropped a Soldier or took a corrective action that really did not pertain to the offense. YES! But it was not harmful or disrespectful. Drop and push while I explain what you did wrong - they usually understood what I was trying to say and was not a SMOKE session or unprofessional. Probably in line with guidance even though at that time I did not realize it. Hey someone has to cut the grass: Guess who just was selected for that detail. Many more examples but there are things done or need done and there are corrective actions that do not cross the line and diminish the Soldiers dignity. Those may not meet the exact context but are respectful and meet the INTENT. Counseling is Key: There is sooooooooo much that could be accomplished with proper counseling and it is the WORST thing we do. You may say you do it but take 20 Soldiers and look at their packet. Only counseling Soldiers when they do something wrong is not counseling.  Some of what I said above is not corrective training but if you counsel and explain why they do these things it could be. I will let you do ____ once you accomplish ____. Its the plan of action and follow up part of the counseling we blow off. Finally: Why more article 15s? The offense needs to match the punishment. If the offense does not warrant a AR15 then no. How many have lost pass privileges and truly know that taking them away is corrective training not punishment? Restriction is punishment - they are different. ANOTHER topic I will leave alone.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 9:53 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 21:53:42 -0500

if anything its the punishment should fit the crime if hes late give him time hacks i.e. sprints to the barracks and back or make him come to work earlier i do believe smoke sessions work some mistakes you don't make again when your smoked for a hour. i know everyone has there different opinion on it but im all for smoke sessions it teaches the soldier a lesson and doesn't follow his career. but sometimes it just doesn't work and ucmj comes in to play, and sometimes we can't get around it. but like i said the punishment should fit the crime.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 10:27 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 22:27:21 -0500

Sergeant Aspiranti, I don't believe that your point of view is in the best interest of the military. If I were ever to be issued corrective training, I would have no complaints and no problem with being smoked.

An Article 15, however, is a different matter. If anyone ever tries to issue me an Article 15, they'd better have all of their ducks in a row because I will demand trial by court martial, and my personal documentation is far more thorough than any I've seen maintained by Army NCOs.

Response by SFC David Cook made Feb 21 at 2014 12:10 AM

SFC David Cook — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 00:10:02 -0500

There are a ton of ways to impose corrective training that fits the infraction, other than putting it on paper. For instance if a Soldier is late to PT, rather than have them conduct PT with the rest of my platoon I will assign them another task that needs to be accomplished that day, nothing degrading just something that needs to get done. Then I have them remake the pt session on their own time, i.e. After work with me (I perform all the exercises with them, but I will admit the pt session is a little more intense than the one they missed). This has been very effective for repeat offenders.

The biggest thing I preach to my NCOs is communication, because no one is perfect and stuff happens. If a soldier messes up:

step 1: ask the pertinent question "are you okay?"

step 2: ask the 5 w's to determine what happened.

step 3: determine if it was an isolated incident.

step 4: determine the course of action (does higher need to be involved? do they need help from other agencies? if it is an isolated incident: does any action need to be taken?) and/or develop a plan to prevent future occurrences.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 12:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 12:49:24 -0500

When I was a Rifle Squad Leader, I would never "smoke" a soldier...<div> </div><div>What I would do is give it training value. Here are some examples. Dig a fighting position to standard and once complete, fill it in (although doing this near the barracks got me in trouble, haha), Low crawl, high crawl, 3 second rushes, with and without a pro mask and MOPP suit, and things like that. Make them move in full kit (to include body armor) from cover to cover, etc...<div> </div><div>Br creative and turn a smoke session into training that the soldier can use.</div></div>

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 2:19 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 14:19:58 -0500

Even as a SPC, if i screwed up I know that I should be "smoke" for jacking it up. To me I would whether have a smoke session than a 4856. To many 4856 and those goes money out of my pocket....No Thank You, just smoke me and get it over with.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Feb 21 at 2014 2:48 PM

SPC Christopher Smith — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 14:48:53 -0500

Everyone talking about how "soft" the military has gotten needs to understand, the limitation on physical reprimand was put into place because not all the time the punishment fit the crime. Taking in account the number of injuries both minor and major, what did a "smoke" session do that talking to someone couldn't have done? To the people ready to say fitness was better, I cannot fight that, but I will say at what cost? You over exert and push through muscle failure. Everytime you do this you get a little stronger, but everytime you are playing with matches. If you want an additional loophole for the new rules of corrective training, who says I can't leave you at "1" or "2" position of the movement. I don't have to "smoke" you to make you sweat. Hold the "1" position of thesquat bender until I tell you to go to "2", and quickly put them right into "3". Sometimes the answer is in the regulation.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 3:36 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 15:36:02 -0500

Doesn't ar 600-20 ch 4-20 say something along the lines of you can administer corrective training within a reasonable amount of repetitions to go along wth a 4856. You can't treat all soldiers the same but you need for them to understand quick fast and in a hurry that joe is in trouble for violating army values, late to formation, etc. doing something wrong. Personally I don't have any patience for ethical or moral wrong doing and have held some long corrective training behind the clinic for those that violate this. I don't like the way the Army is moving with this. But heck if smoking is "wrong" and the army is down sizing lets to ahead and help the movement and remove those that don't have the potential.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 4:36 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 16:36:57 -0500

I would offer that each situations has been to handle on its merit.

There are absolutely situations where the proper corrective training (have a SM report to their NCO every hour on the hour from 0900-1700 on a weekend for constantly missing formation) can adequately handle the issue. Key is that the NCO condcuting the corrective training must be involved.

I would also argue that there are incident where SMs need to get "smoked" to truly help them understand the importance of what they did was wrong. As SSG R.R. wrote, he appreciated the option of the smoke session versus the MPs and to this day, hasn't forgotten.

With that being said, both measures must be handled with care and senjor leaders (NCOs and Officers) need to ensure our junior leaders (again, NCOs and Officers) are applying the appropriate method to the situation.

As for UCMJ, I would suggest that ART 15 be used as a last result. As a Battery Commander, those were the worst part of the job I had to perform, as I felt in most, not all, cases we probably could have done more to better train our Soldiers. In some cases (e.g. positive UA), ART 15 followed by chapters are the right choice, but in others (e.g. late to PT), there are other methods of value to help train and retain our quality Soldiers, as all Soldiers (senior NCO and Officer included) make mistakes.

The "all time low" standard of discipline in our Army is a completely different topic, but fixing how we address problem Soldiers is a good start.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 7:00 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 19:00:24 -0500

I do understand the concept of corrective training and "smoking" a SM. I think that what I do to a SM depends on what the infraction, or history of infractions are. If it is a young SM and they do something rediculous (PVT went off base in KOR KNOWING he did not have his ID Card) I smoked his a$$!!!... He will remember that and the significance of why he shouldn't do that because I was telling him why the ENTIRE time I was doing it. He was a good Soldier, STUPID mistake. He learned, problem solved. If there is a SM who does the same thing over and over again, been in awhile. Smoking will have little to no effect so it will be UCMJ/ 4856 actions coming from me with corrective training which matches the "crime". I think a lot of it is just situation dictates. For me at least. I am sure it is a little more in depth than what is written here, but a lot goes into my decision as to "smoke" or write up my Soldier.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 7:31 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 19:31:42 -0500

You know what the best part about his is. Joe dosnt know any regulation, but will be able to memorize this verbatim by tomorrow.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 8:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 20:13:45 -0500

So, doing paperwork is better then doing some "extra pt". Wow that's weak...lol

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 8:16 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 20:16:49 -0500

Wow times are changing, I mean , back when I was in basic in 1997, in my barracks we had a room designated for that only reason " smoking " . We called the House of Pain.

Response by 1SG Frank Rocha made Feb 21 at 2014 9:06 PM

1SG Frank Rocha — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 21:06:01 -0500

I Believe many confuse two specific terms. Punishment and Discipline. Discipline is what we use to target deficiencies, which usually involves corrective "training" targeted specifically at the deficiency. Punishment is what we see happen when a soldier has truly done something wrong or has exhibited a behavioral pattern that has gone unaffected by previous attempts at corrective training.

I see the term disciplinary action thrown around quite a bit as well. It seems in imply that discipline IS punishment when in fact it is not. The dictionary describes Discipline in the following way, "the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience." Another definition involves a branch of knowledge studied in higher education. Suffice it to say we can probably infer the commonality to be professional competence in a given area.

Rules and regulations are like locks and chains, they are there to keep honest people honest. The truly sinister will seek to break them regardless of their depth or complexity. Outright disobedience then must involve a functional and measured response. knee jerk reactions don't get documented in any way making a negative, unbroken, pattern of behavior more difficult to distinguish from an isolated incident.

We are not doing our soldiers any favors by not counseling them in detail. It shows we are paying attention to them and care enough to spend our time thinking specifically of them and their future in the military. I like to keep good soldiers good, and weed out the bad ones when they are discovered. Many times it seems many of who we perceive as bad ones are simply good soldiers that have given up on their leadership.

Exercise, therefor, as a punishment does not make much sense when you think about it. Even in the case of an APFT, where the focus is entirely on exercise, and/or height/weight failure corrective training is imposed in the form of remedial PT. The punishment for failing continuously is STILL not exercise, the punishment is being discharged from the military.

On a related note, instilling, and showing, pride in service, pride in being a 1%er goes a long way towards esprit de corps. When we all focus and have pride in the same goals we can then always find common ground to build from.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2014 8:09 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 20:09:54 -0500

I normally don't respond to these comments I just read them, but I really hate the way the Army is right now dealing with punishments to Soldiers. My father is a retired SFC and on occasions he had to bring me to work with him sometimes (he was BNCOC and ANCOC PSG) and I got to see some real disciplined instilling training go on, and I would also pay attention to how he carried himself on and off work. When I tell people I came in in '09 they say "aww man you didn't go through anything" but that's what they assumed not knowing that my drill sgts at ft Leonard wood smoked the CRAP out of us! I remember I feel asleep one time in my wall locker and my drill caught me and made me sit on the wall holding my weapon out for an hour! I made Sgt in 3 years and am going on my 5th year enlisted and I still remember those smoke sessions, those "punishments"! That is what helped get me to where I am today, that is what instilled the discipline in me because they instilled that superior power of fear in me. They didn't want me to be afraid of them, but they wanted me to "fear FAILING". To this day there has not been a task I have failed at because I am truly scared that someone may smoke the crap out of me, but I don't look at it as a bad thing, I look at it as me building discipline and not failing. I really think the leaders that made these new rules were probably the that slipped through cracks in the ranks and were the ones who were bullied or may have been the ones to only have deployed once in there 25 year career. Sorry to say all this but when I came in I understood that I was joining the ARMY to PROTECT the country and FIGHT WARS. Now being that I have this mindset it may seem as if I may not have the upmost professionalism but don't judge the book by its cover, I just understand the mission and feel like sharing my thoughts amongst other leaders, but people this is the ARMY not WACHOVIA BANK. We fight wars not and protect the nation, not sit in an office and play politicians. Some leaders use the excuse of all this is happening because the war is dying down, well my question is why didn't it happen after desert storm? What is so different from that time to this time?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2014 8:09 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 20:09:55 -0500

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2014 8:10 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 20:10:00 -0500

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2014 8:10 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Feb 2014 20:10:01 -0500

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2014 6:31 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 18:31:18 -0500

Corrective training?

Timeline Photos - Awesome Shit My Drill Sergeant Said | Facebook

Corrective Training level= Over 9000

~ DS VADER

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2014 6:55 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 18:55:10 -0500

I don't think more Article 15s is the right answer. I think there are many ways an NCO can achieve corrective training without resorting to a 'smoke session.' I agree with the point that CSM Stuart made, corrective training must have a goal of actually correcting something. As for lower discipline, it is up to us as leaders to set the example for what right looks like. If we live up to the Army Values and the NCO Creed, and we enforce standards, then that should correct discipline issues. I spent 15 months as an AIT PSG at DLI before switching to the schoolhouse as an instructor, and I was able to enforce discipline and hold my Soldiers to the standard without a single 'smoke session.' I think the problem lies in the fact that too many NCOs either do not expect and/or enforce discipline and respect, or they don't set the best example for their subordinates to follow.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2014 7:32 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Feb 2014 19:32:04 -0500

Good question.. Now drop till I get tired..

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2014 8:00 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 20:00:08 -0500

This is why we are going from the strongest army in the world to the weakest. My motor Sgt smoked the piss out of me for hours and I never messed up again. These dumb ass rules are the reason why we have such a huge weak and undisciplined army. There was never anything wrong with smoking a soldier. The ones making these rules are probably the same weak pathetic soldiers that fell through the cracks, kissed ass and fast tracked to the top. 

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Mar 11 at 2014 8:06 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:06:07 -0400

Ah, I don't 'smoke' my Privates, but they will hate life for a bit and learn a serious lesson.  Actually, I never liked pushups for corrective action. Try the front leaning rest next time and let gravity, along with lactic acid take over.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 10:18 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Aug 2014 10:18:11 -0400

With a little creativity you can still use exercise as corrective training. The FM tells you to limit the exercise to five but doesn't limit how many times it can be used. Let's say a soldier is late to formation, maybe for the first hour of the day the soldier stands by your desk and has to give 5 push ups every 5 minutes. It may not be a "smoke" session as we would normally think of one but probably embarrassing enough that you can correct the soldiers actions.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2014 7:20 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 07:20:50 -0400

The FM is good, but leaders need to read AR 27-10 Chapter 3. It talks about "corrective training". It's been a bit since I looked into it, but it basically talks about that "correct training" is not a punishment. It is intended to teach Soldiers to learn a lesson and get back on their feet. It even gives an example that corrective training is not where a Soldier cleans a dirty floor with a toothbrush. It says there are various tools. These tools are known as non punitive measures that result in extra training, bar from reenlistment, and etc. Honestly, I never minded the exercise from my former NCO's. The physical training aspect is only problematic when someone is abusive in their power and is a poor leader. Basically, it keeps a Soldier in a state of constant state of fear with no reasoning in doing so.

(Former 27D - 71D Paralegal)

Response by SSG Robert Reynolds made Jan 24 at 2015 10:13 AM

SSG Robert Reynolds — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 10:13:59 -0500

As an E4, I was in charge of preparing about 33 soldiers for the unit to return from deployment. I had visions of being a supportive NCO for my soldiers but soon realized that I really had a lot going going on and was unable to give 33 soldiers the one-on-one attention I wanted to. This is a common problem for most NCOs. I did a few things to mitigate this issue. I am not a big fan of "smoking" a soldier but not because I think it is wrong. It just didn't work for me. Most of my guys were fresh out of AIT/OSUT and I was a commo guy in an infantry unit. Respect had to be earned.

On Thursdays, I led Barracks Inspection PT. We did a short warm up run around the barracks. We went to each room, I would point at someone random and ask for a number between 11 and 20. Another random pick chose the exercise. I inspected the room and everything I found wrong with that room I multiplied by the "multiplier". We went to every room in this fashion. Sometimes I switched the days to keep it interesting but it solved the problem of finding time to check rooms and it actually kept PT challenging and different.

I had my late soldiers and my messed up uniform soldiers. My late guys didn't like being "ignored" when everyone else was released. My messed up uniform guys didn't like being embarrassed in front of their peers which is natural when your uniform is not proper. Everything I did had a purpose and a teaching point. I did so while teaching my soldiers to laugh at themselves and that hard work is not hard but you have to contribute your own fun. It was therefore no surprise my section had a decent morale despite being stuck on a rear-d with an E4 in charge. Some days were better than others and I had a few bigger issues that kept me away from the house but I think it could have been much worse.

Response by SFC Nikhil Kumra made Jan 24 at 2015 10:46 AM

SFC Nikhil Kumra — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 10:46:43 -0500

That's not bad. Just do a 30 count rep on each...

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Jan 24 at 2015 11:18 AM

SFC Vernon McNabb — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 11:18:09 -0500

Being a SNCO and a father of three, I equate smoking to spanking, and counseling to timeout. Both are effective tools when used properly.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Jan 24 at 2015 11:27 AM

SFC Collin McMillion — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 11:27:55 -0500

Oh Lord, I wish someone had to my DI's this when I was in basic, I might have had time to take a break and had a twinkie.......lol!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2015 11:48 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 11:48:59 -0500

UCMJ is not an option in my unit!

One of my fellow squad leaders recommended his spice-smoking soldier for UCMJ and ended up with an Article 15. Included in his sentence was 45 days extra duty. Our battalion CSM would not support his own BC's decision by refusing to allow CQ or Bn Staff Duty to supervise this tool. Basicly, he said that the NCO that recommended him had to supervise him. Now, the rest of us in the platoon took pity on him, and we all chipped in and took turns so he wasnt doing this every day. The Soldier being punished thought that it was hilarious.
I know that this may not be the correct answer to some people, but I'm going to have to think long and hard before recommending someone for UCMJ in the future while under this CSM, and will be very reluctant in do so. Why would I recommend Soldiers for UCMJ knowing that I will be away from my family for 10-45 days to supervise him. Again, call me a dirtbag, but I dont feel like punishing myself and my family, and every NCO in my platoon feels the exact same way. Of course, if it were 10 years ago, I would be smoking this guy until his ETS date.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2015 8:44 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 20:44:49 -0500

SSG Private RallyPoint Member: Wow... talk about the "wimpification" of the Army (and I'm really trying to be nice here!)... The U.S. Army, and the military in general, is on a long, slow decline. You can't cuss at Soldiers (God forbid someone be offended) - but every other word out of their mouths begins with "F"; You can't drop them because they might get tired or hurt; You can't call them "PRIVATE!" because it might hurt their feelings; you can't call them out in front of their peers because it's embarrassing; you can't inspect their rooms because they might feel their privacy is violated; and you can't look at them because they might think you're giving them sexual innuendo...

This is total and absolute BS.

I had a Soldier, who had a habit of missing formations - he was given over to me because everyone thought I might be able to straighten him out. Sure enough, he missed PT formation one morning.

I went to his barracks, woke his sorry ass up, and gave him a choice: Either, he gets written up or he gets smoked.

He chose to get smoked... down the hall: flutter kicks, leg spreaders (can't call it that anymore - God forbid someone think it means something sexual!), leg raises (he couldn't do pushups due to a back injury, and I was - as his leader - well aware of that!). Get to the stairs: Run up to the top floor and back down to the bottom floor until I get to the bottom of the stairs... Out the doors: More flutter kicks, leg spreaders, leg raises. Add in some lunges. Add in some low crawling... Get to the motorpool: Crab walk.. keep going... get to the other side of the motorpool - he's completely smoked! So, let him stand up.

SSG comes out of nowhere starts yelling at me that I'm abusing the Soldier. Told him to kiss my butt - that the Soldier had the choice, and took it. That I'd see him in the 1SGs office if he really had a complaint. This particular douche had a dislike for me and was actually deliberately trying to pick a fight with me.

SSG goes and cries to the 1SG, so 1SG calls the Soldier in his office.

Soldier tells the 1SG "No 1SG, SGT Wayman did not abuse me... he applied corrective training, and used what was supposed to be my PT hour to teach me PT" Keep in mind I did NOT counsel this Soldier to say anything.

1SG calls me in his office and asks me what happened. I tell him. He says that he'll talk to the SSG, and that everything was fine, then tells me what the PVT said. Never heard another word - and GUESS WHAT!? That PVT was NEVER late again! Problem solved!

Oh, one other point, if I had had to write that Soldier up, he was going to be given an Article 15, per the 1SG - so Top wasn't entirely happy...

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jan 24 at 2015 9:02 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 21:02:50 -0500

I was never a real fan of "smoking" as the article puts it. I did however believe in "on the spot corrective action, in lieu of paperwork" or "scheduled counseling in lieu of paperwork."

As an example.

I had a young Marine who was constantly running late. A few minutes here, a few minutes there. Now, we all know "one offs" happen, but this was getting to be an issue.

So I scheduled a Saturday counseling session with him. His required equipment was a bucket and his E-tool. Appointed place of duty was base of the hill in Camp Horno at 0800.

We meet there, and I tell him the plan for the day. From where we are to the top is just under a mile. At 0830 he is to meet me with a full bucket of dirt. For me, it's a nice leisurely stroll. For him, with a full bucket, not so much.

He gets there at probably 0825~ and at 0830, I repeat the plan of the day. 0900 base of the hill with a fresh buck of dirt.

We do that until chow, and meet back at 1300. Repeat until COB.

All said, all we did was walk up and down a hill maybe a dozen times. Sure, I wasted both of our days, but that Marine was never late for me again (without a phone call).

What we had was an extended counseling session. Was there exercise involved? Possibly.

Response by SPC Don Stringer made May 28 at 2015 9:42 AM

SPC Don Stringer — Thu, 28 May 2015 09:42:29 -0400

Go figure. I mean no slight to anyone currently serving active duty, but I am glad I parted from the Army when I did. It was getting to Politically Correct by 2001, which was my last year in the ARNG. Now it seems like its deliberately done to destroy combat effectiveness by emasculation of the entire force, top to bottom. Between this and soldiers being discharged for their Christian faith, the promotion of homosexuality, transgender personnel, women in the infantry, etc etc.
The REAL shame is the career officers who institute these destructive changes instead of fighting for what they know is best for combat readiness. I understand not wanting to squander 15 years of a career when they will just fire you and make someone else implement it.
I fear for our country. I believe we are in the most danger as a country as we have ever faced, and the enemy is within.

Response by SGT Romeo Reyes made Aug 10 at 2015 3:57 AM

SGT Romeo Reyes — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 03:57:08 -0400

Pussification of America, now we have the pussification of the Army. Life In "leg land".

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 4:35 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 04:35:40 -0400

so... no more making the walls cry? Lol jokes aside, there is a time and place to "smoke" a Soldier. Leader's have to have (not should have) more than one leadership style and more than one means of instilling discipline in their Soldiers.

I think throughout my career I have smoked a total of 3 Soldiers, and 2 of them were with the Soldier's agreement in lieu of me recommending them for Article 15. The last was me speaking to the Soldier while he held a half pushup, or a v situp. In all three cases I made sure I wasn't emotional about the situation, though I'm not sure how successful that was.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2015 5:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 17:52:30 -0500

I entered the US Army in the 90's and I believe myself to be moral, ethical, and professional. I became this because my leaders when I began in the military enforced a strong policy of respect and discipline. When I made a poor decision, I was made to do push-ups. Why? Because it invokes a memory to the unprofessional behavior; albeit, a physically painful and mildly embarrassing one. I learned to behave more professionally from it. If I failed to call attention or at-ease when a superior entered the room: push-ups. If my uniform was not proper or my haircut was not standard: more push-ups. It instills discipline and it is immediate correction.

Today, in our Army, with all due respect to our CSM's and 1SG's, you are wrong! For serious offenses that warrant corrective training that fit the offense, I may agree to essays or training that teach the proper method. However, Soldiers have a complete lack of discipline in the Army. And, it's because our confusion of what is considered "hazing" compared to "on-the-spot correction and re-education". Granted, there have been leaders out there that have abused their military authority by inflicting unnecessary punishment on Soldiers for their own amusement which is agreeably hazing. However, due to those (un)professionals, lawmakers and weak senior leadership have inflicted a plague upon our military preventing us and tying our hands from properly instilling discipline. The Soldiers now own the Army and the leaders have become requestors, asking Soldiers to complete tasks in fear of being falsely reported for hazing, harassment, or unethical activity. If they legitimately screw up, they will face administrative action that might become a reality in 6 months only if the officers do their part. But, in reality, the senior officer will credit the fault to the leadership and the Soldier will go free without reprisal.

Article 15s? They are few and far between. Everyone gripes about how the good Soldiers are getting out early, and the shamm-baggers are staying in. That's because our leadership continues to ignore the problem. The shammers know how to get by, and the good Soldiers are tired of doing twice and trice the work.

Right now, I'm writing an open ended essay on if our military is better or worse now after "anti-hazing" legislation has restricted our leadership. This forum being open for discussion 2 years ago answers that question. Our leadership has become a bunch of "yes" men to congress and senate officials where those officials do not understand what it means to be a Soldier. I am proud of my heritage, and I'll be retiring at 20 years knowing I was not one of those "yes" men.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2017 10:23 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Jul 2017 22:23:31 -0400

NCOs don't Punish. They do corrective training. If what you are having the soldier do is relative to the offense then yes it is corrective training. So let's say you have a soldier that is constantly late you could have them show 20 mins early to every formation until them being late is no longer an issue.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2017 2:59 AM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Oct 2017 02:59:26 -0400

An incident happened a few year's ago , and pretty much to make a long story short we were given authorization to leave early and report the next day, and during our formation the following day we were told that since we were not being and team and leaving with everyone else we will do extra curricular activities to learn to be a team . It resulted in some serious permanent damage to myself and i need some advice . [login to see] my other question's are more detailed , but I feel like I've hit a brick wall.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Oct 21 at 2017 2:42 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Sat, 21 Oct 2017 14:42:39 -0400

The article itself is all over the place with various links. Next, the punishment has to fit the crime. Use your imagination. Hands in their pockets, how does "smoking" someone fix that? It won't, so what would work? A presentation to the rest of the platoon on the need for appearance is a possible alternative. The benefit is you give the soldier the chance to present in public, which survey say people are the most afraid of...public speaking. You want to see them get antsy, this will do it.