You have a Soldier with a questionable passing ht/wt or APFT what do you do?

2014-04-28T22:52:38-04:00

This has happened to me a few times as Commander and just as a random "bystander": a Soldier has a questionable APFT or ht/wt and is up for promotion. What do you do as a leader? Do you retest them? Do you let it go? Do you ask them? Do you mandate the whole unit to do it to avoid the appearance of targeting someone?

Does it matter if they are senior NCO or an officer and the board results are out of your influence?

EDITED: Questionable in some cases were suddenly had a PT card with passing test when they did not pass last week. Others is that they are by visual look not passing ht/wt or taping (not in a million years) but have passed on paper and in the system. One other was that suddenly in the system it is showing a current passing test that nobody inputted in the system or given to the Soldier.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 29 at 2014 12:09 AM

2014-04-29T00:09:26-04:00

What's questionable?

Does the SM appear overweight?

Was the APFT not graded IAW current doctrine?

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Apr 29 at 2014 12:56 AM

2014-04-29T00:56:04-04:00

What do you define as questionable sir? If the APFT and HT/WT were conducted in accordance with the regulations, then the results should not be in question. If you are questioning the results of the personnel running those events, then I would advise that you and your 1SG direct your crosshairs to your unit procedures (i.e. proper training in administration of an APFT and HT/WT).

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Apr 29 at 2014 8:17 AM

2014-04-29T08:17:32-04:00

CPT Maurelli, this is the type of thing I would discuss one-on-one with my 1SG -- if you have that kind of solid relationship with him/her. Chances are, if you are seeing this, the 1SG is seeing this as well. Can you please elaborate on what 'questionable' means in your initial statement? That could help us think about it more helpfully.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2014 8:20 AM

2014-04-29T08:20:43-04:00

Sir,

This is an easy one for me to answer only cause I am a husky guy. If you really have to test them put I have just came out and told them "hey you got a APFT and HT/WT in two weeks". Gives you some time to observe them. Now if you think they flat out just penciled whip their APFT go after who ever name is on it.

V/R

MSG Haro

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2014 8:24 AM

2014-04-29T08:24:28-04:00

I think what you mean by questionable is the fact that it was pencil whipped vs. actual reflection of what is true. Is that correct?

If so, any Soldier can be taped any time by you the commander, if you feel it does not reflect accurately, then do it yourself.

As far as the APFT goes, are you doubting the people that graded the individual? If so then talk to them. Are you doubting the individual's abilities? Talk to the Soldier. I know if I ever had a commander that would have challenged any of my PT tests for promotion purposes then I would have gladly taken another one for him to grade to make him feel better.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2014 9:02 AM

2014-04-29T09:02:39-04:00

This happened in my company about a year ago, a Staff Sergeant from another Platoon turned in a DA 705 and DA 5500 into the training room for updates. The problem was the training room had not conducted a APFT or HT/WT during that time frame also the results from where a complete night and day from the last one. The Command Group was involved and a mini investigation was started come to find out the Staff Sergeant had penciled whipped the form and the S3 MSG signed off on it. So the after that the next week the whole company conducted a APFT and HT/WT in a three day period no exceptions were made. If a Soldier was temporary on profile they would conduct every event within the limits of that profile. At the end a hand full of Soldiers and NCO’s were a little hurt because they did poorly and/or were caught up in their lie.

With that being said Sir if you feel something is wrong with the documents conduct a mini investigation and perpar for a 100% HT/WT and APFT. That way your not singling one person out but making sure everyone in your Company is IAW current doctrine.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jun 8 at 2014 1:25 AM

2014-06-08T01:25:21-04:00

Retest everyone. If there is a failure of standards, it needs to be corrected. Additionally, it should not matter the rank of the soldier in question.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Dec 9 at 2014 4:57 AM

2014-12-09T04:57:48-05:00

G-O-N-E I can't afford to have overweight fat bodies in my unit pushing Privates.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Dec 9 at 2014 7:01 AM

2014-12-09T07:01:40-05:00

Sorry, but "questionable" and ht/wt or APFT should NEVER be in the same sentence. That's one of the things that can blow up in a real hurry.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2014 8:00 AM

2014-12-09T08:00:03-05:00

I have a little different perspective, as I am both a First Sergeant and supervise conduct and compiling of promotion documents in my civilian job.

When it happens outside my company - and there are a couple of these per year - I pay the unit 1SG a visit and discuss what appears outside the norm. If the 1SG says he witnessed the test or can talk about how the soldier improved miraculously, I let it go, but duly note the source as suspect and scrutinize documents from that source more closely.

When it happened inside my unit, I had a bit of a come to Jesus with the training NCO. From that point on, no APFT in my company would ever happen without me personally present. If it was a test for BOLOs, I would be the event supervisor. Unfortunately, my average APFT score went down, but at least I knew it was legitamate and could focus our training appropriately.

For promotions, I always had a two-test rule. If they had a failure, I wanted to see that they could pass two in a row to prove that they were beyond the issue. Anyone can have an injury, illness, or bad day, but not many have such rotten luck as to have it occur on APFT day twice a year. When I was a young troop, we called it PT-itis.

As an aside, you should have seen how my incidence of Temporary Profiles plummeted when my Soldiers found out that I had a suitable place to conduct an APFT in the winter.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2014 7:31 PM

2014-12-09T19:31:21-05:00

This is a great reason I love rally point. Reading all the comments from the senior ncos is like having a thousand mentors at my fingertips.

That being said, being of the husker variety myself, I have always been taped and have always worked my tail off to meet the standard, so I get a little annoyed when I see or I know that soldiers are deliberately pencil whipping th euro scores. Knowing that I am about to enter the senior ranks myself, I will take advise here and what I have learned from experience and my actual mentors and continue to add to my toolbelt!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2014 7:44 PM

2014-12-09T19:44:24-05:00

Sir, units tend to hide the soldier that is not up to par....I've seen it time and time again. Why isn't there someone running a fatboy program? Hgt/Wgt every week. Food dairy, even telling a soldier to go see the doctor and get some labs ran to rule out hypothyroidism would be a proactive step. I am not advocating hiding behind a blood test, but I would hope the command is empathetic to the SM that has hypothyroid or some other medical condition that is causing them to gain weight just looking at food.

Solution: Each unit needs to enroll said fatboy or fatgirl into a unit weight-loss program. Mandatory extra PT, strict diet planning, and food avoidance counseling, Mandatory weigh in, week to week. Hold the soldier to the fire until he maintains a good weight for 1 full month.

Question for you: If a SM cannot make tape but passes the APFT every time without any problem, would you look away?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 1:59 PM

2015-12-15T13:59:57-05:00

And what do you do as a full time Miltech when you see this happening time and time again, bring it up to the chain of Command and it gets swept under the rug? I know a NCO who has been doing this for years and getting away with it. I've brought it up and nothing is done. All Soldiers should adhere to the same standards for the APFT. It's very discouraging when you see them get recommended for the next grade for a pencil whipped pt card and body fat worksheet and your other Soldiers can see it as well. Nobody has seen this Soldier take one in 6 years. What do you do then without crossing the line?!