Your boss is a toxic leader. How should we deal with their abuse? Is it our responsibility to do anything?

COL Lee Flemming — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 02:21:16 -0400

The military and many private organizations have made efforts to address toxic leadership. In some cases they've installed Inspector Generals or Ombudsmen, but there are countless other organizations that lack tools and resources to address bad leadership. What should those people do, and how do you extricate yourself from this type of situation without having to quit a job you need?

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Aug 11 at 2016 3:31 AM

1stSgt Eugene Harless — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 03:31:23 -0400

Unfortunately it was my experience in the Marine Corps there was very little ever done to Toxic leaders. Once they got into that position it was assumed by their superiors that they were fully capable of doing their job. As long as they kissed the asses of their superiors it dint matter how they treated subordinates. Fortunately there numbers were small in the overal numbers.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2016 3:58 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 03:58:04 -0400

COL Lee Flemming Sir, I think one of the first things we need to do is truly educate our force what exactly is a toxic leader. Too many times I have seen people being called toxic because someone didn't like the way they did things. Because someone "yells" when trying to emphasize the importance of a point (such as a safety related incident, or repeated failures to take care of Soldiers), they were labeled as toxic. Because someone holds you to a standard and enforces those standards does not make one toxic. All too often the term is thrown around because people don't like they way the are treated, but rarely does that individual look inward and wonder why they are being treated that way. Could it be because after being "asked" so many times to do something, they were "yelled" at for failing to do what was asked??? And with the younger generation today, this seems to be an ever increasing problem. Just my two cents.

Response by COL Lee Flemming made Aug 11 at 2016 4:29 AM

COL Lee Flemming — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 04:29:58 -0400

This is from a few years back, but illustrates that point that toxic leaders will not be tolerated in today's Army.

Response by SGT Brent Cann made Aug 11 at 2016 5:05 AM

SGT Brent Cann — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 05:05:07 -0400

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Aug 11 at 2016 7:30 AM

CPT Mark Gonzalez — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 07:30:53 -0400

You minimize their damage, because most likely what they are doing is not illegal or immoral. Tough leaders are also called toxic, by mediocre performers. The line is fine and some things obviously cross it. However, having a boss who makes you inefficient or less than optimal may be annoying, but is not toxic. They have to grow and learn themselves and part of this is doing things in ways you may not necessarily like. We work in a linear hiarchacry and have to deal with unpopular orders. How often have we seen well intended ideas with devastating consequences, because people just don't understand that every situation is a little different.
Minimize their damage and if they are that bad use your command climate, IG, congress, etc. However, it better be that bad as it is your career you are risking as well. Backlash is not supposed to happen, but human nature says it does.
If the Army really cared they would go back to a simple tool like the msaf and make it more than a check the block. In its current form that things is a joke and everyone knows it.

Response by CW4 Angel C. made Aug 11 at 2016 9:22 AM

CW4 Angel C. — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 09:22:23 -0400

The Army is full of these. And it's not always the obvious loud Type A. I went through this with a guy that was quiet and seemingly peaceful. But that was only due his lack of confidence and incompetence; definitely Major Sobel from Band of Brothers, but quiet. Anyways, a toxic boss only responds to a higher authority and subordinate confronting him is a waste of time. Unfortunately, it is extremely hard to convince the COC that this guy is toxic (when the case is mild) vs just a weak leader, especially when being exposed by a WO. It is also almost impossible to get others to risk exposing this type of boss for fear of retaliation or drawing attention. Even though they always complain about him. And IG doesn't really work in cases the toxic leader is a field grade officer and your're in an organization (ABN BCT/DIV) where only the worse toxic leaders get punished, which was the case with my last BCT CDR who was relieved. But he left a lot of mini-him's around. This is an Army problem that's not gonna go away. I wasted a lot of valuable time and energy trying to prove this guy was toxic.

Response by SGT William Howell made Aug 11 at 2016 9:32 AM

SGT William Howell — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 09:32:40 -0400

I will make this as clear as I can to all young leaders that think they can champion what is right.

DON"T SAY SHIT! KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT! If somebody above him (with the ability to actually fire that leader) has not, there is a reason.

One, You are wrong! You are the problem, not him. Know how that gets fixed? You get fired.
Two, He is the problem and he knows where all the dead bodies are buried. He is bulletproof. You now how that gets fixed. You get fired.
Three, He is the problem and nobody gives a shit above him. You know how that gets fixed. You get fired.

For some reason young people believe that if you stand up for what is right and just that you are going to prevail. The hard truth is that person got to where they are by cutting down the competition. They back stabbed, brown nosed, blackmailed, and bullied their way into that position. Morals have nothing to do with being able to get somebody replaced. If you can actually prove that they have done something illegal you may have a chance, but don't count on it. Once you are on their radar as a threat they are going to get rid of you for two reasons. You are a threat and as a sign to others that challenging them will lead to them also being fired.

I have been there several times when I was young and stupid. SGT Howell luckily remained SGT Howell and LtC Snyder became BG Snyder. Don't fall into that trap.

Response by SPC James Gromley made Aug 11 at 2016 10:20 AM

SPC James Gromley — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 10:20:11 -0400

Yes, but we must be certain we have all the facts, I personally had to deal with this in my civilian job right after leaving regular army. The best thing I found was to do my job to the best of my abilities, but be certain that those who where hire up the chain of command knew what was happening.

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made Aug 11 at 2016 10:26 AM

SGT Frank Pritchett — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 10:26:57 -0400

Toxic Leadership is embedded into the Army's function. I went to three E-6 boards passed two of them and retired as an E-5 with over 10 years time in grade on active duty, with outstanding NCOER's only to be told at retirement that some of my military records are bogus to the point that the First Sergeant fabricated a letter and placed it into my 201 file denying me a Good conduct Medal, I was awarded it anyway. IG did nothing. RET. Sept. 2015 A lot has to be done about Toxic Leadership other then lip service.

Response by Col Rebecca Lorraine made Aug 11 at 2016 11:17 AM

Col Rebecca Lorraine — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 11:17:36 -0400

Having served under this in units that were run by AGR unionized civil servants in the Air Force Reserve, you just can't quit and find a new home without traveling some distance. From 2LT to LtCol, I stayed in this unit through terrible situations and no recourse. I was so committed to staying in the military; I had to tolerate, adapt and thrive. But, I also became paranoid and mistrusted many of those with whom I worked. This toxicity extended into deployments and other units. You never knew whom to trust. I'm not wildly paranoid, but within many medical communities, there is toxicity, a self-serving group that just were not good people. There were so many wonderful people too, so I don't want to tarnish all. There simply was no recourse to change a unit culture from Squadron Commander to minions. The difference between incompetence vice a culture of negativity, mistrust, and nepotism shouldn't be confused. Maybe there are mentors to talk with and finding a few who can keep things sane is what I did, but I was involved in interactions that should never have occurred. I'm sure we are not all popular in our leadership styles, but we don't lead to being popular, but to accomplish a mission, which includes raising the next group of leaders at every level.

Response by Kim Bolen RN CCM ACM made Aug 11 at 2016 11:28 AM

Kim Bolen RN CCM ACM — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 11:28:46 -0400

National Labor Relations Board, Board of Directors!

Response by 1SG Patrick Burke made Aug 11 at 2016 11:49 AM

1SG Patrick Burke — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 11:49:14 -0400

I can only offer my military experience. I had the misfortune of working for a text book toxic leader. He was the Squadron Commander and I was one of the Troop 1SGs. The situation was so toxic that he fostered a cover your ass atmosphere from the Squadron XO all the way down. The CSM could not be in the same room as him. He denegrated a Troop Commander for extending a Soldiers leave due to a parents failing health, telling the CPT that old people die eventually. Threatened all leaders with their careers of they did not do what he wanted, like forcing every Soldier to sign their families up under the VFRG site. Holding the Field Grades Officers evaluations over their heads if their wives did not at all the LTC's wife's socials, regardless of what time/location. There were many more instances, but what I saw was that he was a douche to those below him and was an eager lap dog to those above. Did he get fired? No, not really. He had filled in as a BN CDR in another unit, so they pieced his time together and he came up with 18 months, so he was just moved to a new job. The only thing I did and ensured my CPT did, was to shield my Soldiers from his bullshit. Other CMD Teams did not filter and it showed in their discipline and morale.
I agree with some of the other posts about 'Toxic' being applied to tough leaders, but for those that are truly toxic, there is not much the employees can do unless they have the support of the toxic leaders' boss.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Aug 11 at 2016 12:14 PM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 12:14:34 -0400

There is toxic leadership currently in America...

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Aug 11 at 2016 1:42 PM

MSgt John McGowan — Thu, 11 Aug 2016 13:42:15 -0400

Col. Sir. Toxic leadership is a new term to me. I am Vietnam and cold war retiree. We had tough leaders that would raise hell about failed inspections but he never put it on a personal level. I heard him cuss and just pure raise cane and have been on the receiving end a few times, well more that a few. He never carried it until the next day or even that afternoon. I wouldn't say he was toxic but today he might have been. I always got outstanding endorsments from him. Would he be considered toxic but todays standards? He was a full COL that would have never been promoted any higher. Me I loved to work for him.

Response by COL Lee Flemming made Aug 12 at 2016 11:31 AM

COL Lee Flemming — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 11:31:47 -0400

https://www.army.mil/article/157327/Toxic_leaders_decrease_Soldiers

Another Article with a tie to work performance.

Toxic leaders decrease Soldiers' effectiveness, experts say

Having a toxic boss results in a 48 percent decrease in work effort and 38 percent decrease in work quality, said Dr. George Reed.

Response by COL Lee Flemming made Aug 12 at 2016 11:34 AM

COL Lee Flemming — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 11:34:05 -0400

https://evolution-institute.org/article/us-army-ambushed-by-toxic-leaders/

This article ties the Army's high suicide rates to toxic leaders.

US Army Ambushed By Toxic Leaders

A National Public Radio news investigation on toxic leadership in the military inspired me to write a commentary on myForbes.com blog with Jonathan Haidt. Here is how the US Army defines toxic leadership: Toxic leadership is a combination of self-centered attitudes, motivations, and behaviors that have adverse effects on subordinates, the organization, and mission performance. […]

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2016 2:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 14:40:26 -0400

“What should those people do, and how do you extricate yourself from this type of situation without having to quit a job you need?”
The Army is not really an organization known for its ability or willingness to fire or remove toxic individuals. The same excuse is always heard: “He/She is doing things the way he/she knows how…”, “The results are better than the methods…”, or (my own personal favorite) “…But they *rock* at PT…” The sad truth is that, for the most part, the only thing one can do is “embrace the suck” and wait for things to possibly change for the better (or worse).
Having been in this exact situation, I can only offer the same advice I gave to my guys – pay attention and learn.
Pay attention to the effect the toxic individual is having on the unit. At some point, barring the attrition of competency due to this reason, the young PFC will eventually be a SFC. What better way to learn how *not* to be a leader than being part of a unit where the morale is burning up on re-entry and about to give a good lesson in “crater analysis”? Likewise, studying how the unit either minimizes the potential catastrophic dangers the toxic person generates or deals with the repercussions is also beneficial. Paying attention is difficult to do when miserable, but it is better than wallowing in the moment.
This goes in to learning. I jokingly have commented many times that we operate in the world's best abnormal psych lab, and that money and volunteers could never replicate the social, professional, and emotional factors that are associated with what we do. That being said, hope exists within the lab. There are people out there who will listen and seek out input from those of us who have words of assistance and guidance. Great minds and even greater potential is out there and very close at times, and all that is needed is words of encouragement for the actions they display and one or two nudges in a direction that solidifies their own confidence and ability.
Toxic leadership is irresponsible and irritating, but it is a fact of life within any organization. Dealing effectively with it, however, is one of those “life lessons” which is priceless when one really looks at the benefits which could be gained as opposed to how much it sucks.
In the words of Mike Judge’s character “Butt-head”: “If nothing sucked, and like, everything was cool all the time, then it’s like, how would you know it was cool?”
(Yes, I quoted “Beavis and Butt-head”… deal with it, laugh, or shake your head…)

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Aug 12 at 2016 9:35 PM

COL Jon Thompson — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 21:35:01 -0400

I think the best thing we can do it to continue to do our duties to the best of our abilities. If there is toxic leadership in a unit, we owe it to our subordinates to do the best to take care of them. Then I think it is important that we do not foster toxic leadership in our subordinates. Senior toxic leaders just did not get that way. They probably were like from their early days as an officer or NCO. In the military world, it is important to document patterns of toxic leadership behavior so if one does go to the IG, there is a substantial case and not just one incident. In the civilian world, I kind of think there are more protections for employees if the boss is abusive. Sometimes though, it may come down to having the courage to potentially lose a job or just suck it up. That is not an easy decision to make and each person has to judge what is best. As a minimum, I would say they should at least start exploring other options so they have a backup plan. Dealing with a toxic leader is challenging and there are no easy black or white answers on how to deal with that.

Response by Emerald S made Aug 13 at 2016 6:35 PM

Emerald S — Sat, 13 Aug 2016 18:35:38 -0400

in agreement with this COL 100%! for the rest of you get the hell updated with the USA news sites, not just one or two news sites.................This COL HAS more respect and CONCERN for ALL of you .

Response by 1SG Al Brown made Aug 14 at 2016 1:40 PM

1SG Al Brown — Sun, 14 Aug 2016 13:40:17 -0400

Fantastic question. Tough question to answer and a situation that many have seen or experienced at every level. Everyone has a different point of tolerance when on the receiving end of a toxic leader. The result of toxic leadership is mental abuse. Any response can be treated as insubordination by personnel loyal to the abuser. It isn't fixable unless you can stand-up and make a case outside the chain of command. Toxic leaders are always clever, which is why they are always a problem.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2018 7:44 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 May 2018 19:44:40 -0400

O my!!!! Great question. I think that the one thing we can all agree on is that there will always be some form of toxic leadership. This is sad, but a reality that we have to deal with.
So, when there is toxic leadership and this problem has been addressed with no relief, you have to know how to fight that fire and extinguish it. The way that i have dealt with this issue is by being calm and using their own words against them. See, i have this habit that irks my husband, and for years he never knew why i kept things (paperwork) for so long. And the same goes for emails. I, no lie, have emails from 2009. I have folders for everything, because if i am ever in a situation when someone has said something wrong or tried to accuse me of something, you best believe i have that email. Oh, and i love those huge desk calendars...i write on those too. But most importantly, i know that if i recognize that someone is a toxic leader, that someone else does as well. Before i will ever accuse anyone of anything, i will have my ducks in a row. Facts are facts; a person's own words can and will be used against them, and having details, no matter how small will strengthen your case once you choice to address it higher. Just my two cents

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2018 8:19 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 May 2018 20:19:32 -0400

I think i have a good example of toxic leadership that i experienced. Long story short, i was assigned to HRC as a young E6 and reunited with someone that had taught me the right way to do my job when i first came in the Army. Fast forward....i got a little lazy, was flagged for overweight...completely my fault. So, i worked hard, lost weight the right way, and by the next PT test, i was GTG. O, and i just so happens that i was selected for E7, and should have been promoted on my birthday. So, i passed my PT test and made weight. 3 days later, im still flagged. I inquire with the MSG, and she gives the excuse, o, you were right on, so we're gonna tape you again next month. And, you were taped by reservists...WTH?!? I know this is wrong, but ok. So she tapes me and i fail. Ok, so i work harder, lose more than 20 pounds, but she is still measuring me the same. So i tell my first line; he does nothing. So then i tell my SGM. But, he didn't just go off of what i said. Just so happen, another MSG and 2 SFCs went to bat for me after i made my complaint. So, we went to another directorate, and had someone else conduct my HT/WT. Low and behold, i measured damn near 7% less than what this MSG was reporting. So, i was promoted TWO months later than i should have been. She had her comments, but she had lost some credibility by this point. So, to put this toxic leader in her rightful spot, I chose her to be the MC of my promotion ceremony. (O, and during the rehearsal, the SGM and others heard how she was continuing to be disrespectful and unprofessional towards me and my husband, which further diminished het credibility). I did this because she tried to keep something from me that i had earned and worked my ass off for (excuse the language

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Nov 30 at 2020 12:47 AM

CSM Charles Hayden — Mon, 30 Nov 2020 00:47:29 -0500

My last, Peter Principle, government service job was in a toxic environment.

The chest pains I experienced as a result of the toxicity disappeared after a year’s retirement from that place. 31 years later, I continue to have dreams related to that employment.