Posted on Oct 16, 2016
PO1 Leading Petty Officer (Lpo)
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
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GySgt Kenneth Pepper
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It must be nipped in the bud quickly and without hesitation. Having had a few minutes to think about it, here goes....
PFC Shitbird and his team leader stand fast. All others fall out and carry on.

Have PFC Dipshit stand by while I ensure his team leader knows what my expectations are; "Instant obedience to lawful orders. Period. Any other answer is unacceptable. The fact that PFC Dipshit thinks it is okay to open his trap is a direct reflection of your leadership. Take a look at how you are leading and determine how this could happen."

To PFC Dipshit; "If you have decided to end your time in the military you have chosen a sure-fire method. If you do not comply with lawful orders, it will eventually end with you on a bus headed for home. But only after spending the next few weeks/months becoming the example of what not to do. If that is what you want, we will go there. If not, get your ass moving on what you were ordered to do."
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Sgt Steve Williams
Sgt Steve Williams
1 mo
SGT Tony Shope - I hear ya. I was 69 - 71. A personal phone was a pay phone with nobody nearby.
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CMSgt William Wilson
CMSgt William Wilson
22 d
That should do the job but I would make a record of his actions if needed further down the road.
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MGySgt Joseph Magyar
MGySgt Joseph Magyar
11 d
After counseling I would allow him to apologize to the formation who has brought dishonor on.
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CPL Quinton Reed
CPL Quinton Reed
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sarg. I disagree. first , an e2? what training unit did he/her pass through. then we read the word they. how many times do we read the plural? so lets assume it a p2 and a e5 directs orders. the orders are disobeyed. that courts marshal offense but allows an immediate review buy the commander prior to the recommendation. next. disrespect in verbal form. the use of direct verbal inflections toward a senior is a stockade-able offence. the military cannot allow verbal and physical disobedience. your method empowers lessor abled personnel to direct operations. absolutely no.
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CPL(P) UH-60 Helicopter Repairer
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Edited 3 y ago
Praise in public, punish in private. "You stand fast after formation." Give him a chance to explain insubordination. Mandatory counseling. If he is defiant in private after getting the chance then burn him. ART15. Sometimes people are defiant because something happened and they feel out of control so they try to take it wherever they can no matter how inappropriate. Sometimes a wife cheated or a parent died. Sometimes the hospital calls and congratulates you on having cancer. To outright burn a Joe without gathering the facts is irresponsible and we would want someone breathing down our neck to take that extra moment to consider what might be going on too. If it's nothing more than attitude and a shitty personality then by all means light that dead Christmas tree and know you probably saved lives downrange.
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LTC Delivery Driver
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I'm sure your 11bravos, 11C, 19D, 18 series will tell you to have a thicker skin and to have some resiliency training instead of locking and loading your, M249, your mark 19 or m203.
MAJ Montgomery Granger CSM William DeWolf CSM William DeWolf CPT Pedro Meza CH (CPT) (Join to see) 1SG (Join to see) MAJ Matthew Arnold
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CPL Quinton Reed
CPL Quinton Reed
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SPC Chris Ison - well unless the nco can be shown as not acting under the orders of an officer then the chain of command stands as the order from an officer. it also must be shown the order is not a lawful military order because all orders are by constitution under we the people from the commander in chief, the president of the united states. the chain of command is in fact a law as soon as you take the oath
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SPC Chris Ison
SPC Chris Ison
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CPL Quinton Reed - ONLY COMMISSIONED OFFICERS ISSUE DIRECT ORDERS.

Yes the NCO can be "passing along an order".

However the original post is form a PETTY OFFICER in the Navy. AT first formation. Which means the order being issued, at the time, is a LAWFUL ORDER.

A Direct order must also be lawful to be followed:

Sgt, have the men conduct a fire drill. Is a Direct LAWFUL order by an officer.

Sgt, man the men set fire to the village. is a direct order, but it is an unlawful order and should not be obeyed.
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GySgt Kenneth Pepper
GySgt Kenneth Pepper
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I'm curious as to the origin of your belief that an NCO cannot issue a "direct order"? NCCOs issue direct orders every single day. The legality of an order is pretty simple and I hope we all understand that.
The barrack's lawyer stance that only officers can issue a direct order is a pretty old one, but is still as invalid today as it was when it originated.
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PO1 David Gibbens
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I can speak from experience on this one. On my first boat( yes I'm a submariner) as an E3 I was made Deck Div LPO, AKA Leading Seaman. While passing out the day's job assignments, I was told "f@#k no" by one of the new seaman. I was shocked to say the least. I went to the 1st LT, a TMCS, and informed him of my situation. He told me in no uncertain terms to take said individual to the back of the work barge and show him the error of his ways. I did so, physically. The young man never questioned me again.
Now, before everyone jumps on me, let me give you my opinion on this matter. This was the late '70s. We were still in the Viet Nam mind set. However; when did the military go from being a gung ho military organization to a job? "Ask him what's wrong". Really?! When you're at 400ft and there's a fire in the Torpedo Room, or you're someplace where people are shooting at you are you really going to take no as an answer?? Or are you going to kick him in his ass, and get him motivated to move in the right direction? I spent 20 years in the Submarine Force and I've seen people come and go. And the ones that went were sent haze gray and underway on surface ships. Which, BTW, was the same as failing. Next time someone tells a senior NCO he doesn't want to do something, point out that the contract he signed doesn't say anything about liking it. He (or she) doesn't have to like it. They just have to do it. STS1(SS) USN, Ret
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SPC Chris Ison
SPC Chris Ison
3 d
SPC John Canning -

The presidential pardon is meat as a redress of grievances from the chain of command. It is not meant as preemptive strike.

If you get an article 15, or a court martial and you feel you were unjustly accused you can appeal it all the way to the Commander in Chief.

He, is NOT supposed to step in before you have asked him too, and "correct a superior officer" it undermines the chain of command.

Look at it like this. Let us say that a soldier did something and was facing a company level article 15, and after that had happened the BN Commander stepped in and nullified the punishment. How do you think that shit would fly?

The BN CO has the authority to rescind the action yes, but that doesn't mean he should do it PUBLICLY, and before the offender has requested it.

Gallagher was found guilty in a court martial. HE was given due process and had four different witnesses testify against him. HE IS GUILTY.

And Trump has stepped in and fucked it all to hell.
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SPC John Canning
SPC John Canning
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SPC Chris Ison - Which is Trump's prerogative. The trial was quite a shit show, the Navy looked incompetent in their presentation of the case.
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SPC Chris Ison
SPC Chris Ison
3 d
SPC John Canning - it is NOT his prerogative.

Interfering in the chain of command is NOT the job of the CIVILIAN leadership.

As I said, had Gallagher requested his help via an appeal, it would be different. But you don't go fucking micromanaging the fucking chain of command.

He could have waited for the appeal, and then he could have commuted the sentence. But by PARDONING him, he made it so that the crimes never happened at all.

Pardons are supposed to be by APPLICATION. Not because the president wants to put his nose in someone else's business.

That is how you bankrupt hotels.

Let us put this into some perspective here.

Bowe Bergdahl, was never listed as FTR, AWOL, or deserted, UNTIL AFTER HE CAME HOME.

He was tried, and no one said a goddamned thing about the chain of command and their filing of false reports.

And President Obama did not step and fucking pardon his ass, even though he could have, for that very fucking reason. If he had deserted his post, he should have been listed as a deserter and not as a POW.

Hell half all of the conservative press did was crucify that SOLDIER, who had a mental fucking breakdown.

Had he been pardoned By President Obama, we would still be hearing you fuckheads cry about it. Just like you won't let Jane Fonda go, even though she did absolutely NOTHING fucking wrong, and her trip was carried under the supervision of the state department, and all the POW's she spoke with were selected and approved before hand, and all of her interactions were completely fucking monitored. No, you will believe a bunch of laying fuckers over logic and common sense, which is what is happening here. It doesn't matter if the trial was a shit show, he had FOUR WITNESSES AGAINST HIM! HE IS GUILTY PERIOD.

Or should we believe the other four operator's are liars?
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CPL M Miller
CPL M Miller
19 h
first of all Mr. Trumps first name is "president" SPC Canning. and as such The CIC has all the prerogative as THE CIC. Some may not like it but please review the Oath you took and the pictures of YOUR chain of command that I am sure are posted somewhere in your AO. self explanatory.
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