Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC) Phase 2
Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC) Phase 2
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So I have a service member at ALC right now and she was told that because she has a profile she cannot be awarded honor grad or distinguished honor grad. Her profile is not a temp and she has had it for a while now from an injury while driving her country. I do know that they can say she is not able to earn it with a temp profile but this is not the case. How in the hell can this not be an EO violation? This would be the same as me telling my squad leader he is not allowed to be my squad leader any longer because he is black. That is wrong and so is this. How can tradoc think that this is something that they can get away with. She was also told that this is brigade policy. That is why I through the bull shit flag. Will my rally point family help me out here?
Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC)
Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC) Phase 1 Common Core
Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC) Phase 2
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 25
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The Army's EO Policy is: The US Army will provide Equal Opportunity and fair treatment for military personnel, family members, and DA civilians without regard to race, color, religion, gender, or National origin, and provide an environment free from sexual harassment.
At no point does that policy cover APFT guidelines/profiles. This is clearly not an EO violation.
Most ALCs and SLCs use the APFT as a factor in the grade point average. 300/3 = 100 points; etc. Additionally, some list 270 or above as a requirement for Commandants List, HG, or DHG.
If she scored a 208 and it was the "second [best] in the class", I weep for our NCO Corps.
At no point does that policy cover APFT guidelines/profiles. This is clearly not an EO violation.
Most ALCs and SLCs use the APFT as a factor in the grade point average. 300/3 = 100 points; etc. Additionally, some list 270 or above as a requirement for Commandants List, HG, or DHG.
If she scored a 208 and it was the "second [best] in the class", I weep for our NCO Corps.
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LTC (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) - I once had a BN XO tell me that 180 was the standard, anyone who scored higher than that was just showing off. lol
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LTC (Join to see)
SFC(P) Tobias M. - officers don't get promotion points, so for me it is a moot point. Since I am permanent profile I either get a GO or NOGO. Call me lazy, but since it doesn't matter how fast I do the walk I get the same "GO", what is my incentive to bust my ass to finish faster? Also, I think the current APFT is a joke when it comes to accurately measuring practical fitness. I can do 75-80 situps. But every APFT I do my minimum 30 and stop. On a good day, I can finish the 2.5 mile walk in just under 29 minutes. But for the APFT, I have been known to stand at the finish-line for 5-6 minutes (occasionally I will also smoke a cigarette) and step across just under the limit. It's my own personal protest against what I consider a flawed test.
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SFC(P) Tobias M.
LTC (Join to see) - that right there is funny. I agree 100%. I can't do the sit-ups and do the walk so even if I was to max my push-ups I still wouldn't score high enough to even matter.
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I am a course manager for 11B ALC and you can not attend school with a profile unless it's a permanent profile. There is nothing stating you can not get it while on a profile. Call TRADOC and ask them if you really want to open a can of worms.
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SFC (Join to see)
Tell her to email you a copy of that schools ISAP (individual student assesment plan) before you call your EO rep
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1SG Michael Minton
Most likely any complaint you file, the response us going to be there is other evaluations along with academics to decide honor grads, in other words they CYA. she has more serious problems, with a permanent profile, she should be concerned about medical board and being able to stay in the military. The boards eliminate most that have permanent profiles, especially if they are young soldiers. I don't think EO will be the correct place to file a complaint, it's more a IG complaint or possibly the open door policy to the commander of the school or training center commander. But know the standards and policies of the school to become a honor grad before stirring the pot.
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The schoolhouse commandant will set what conditions need to be met for HG and DHG. Many times, the APFT is a component of that. I recall going to two of my NCOES courses where a profile precluded you earning HG or DHG; it was right in the welcome letter.
When I was in BNCOC, I demolished the rest of the class with GPA, assessments, and written work. From what I got in feedback, it wasn't close. But I was not the DHG - in fact I think that they didn't have one that cycle specifically because of this - and they told me that the reason why was that I was a SFC. (Long story short, when I was promoted to SFC in 2005, I was on my second tour in a row with only a few months in between. At the time, there was a BNCOC waiver, but you had to complete it within 12 months of redeployment or they took the stripe away.) I thought that I got jobbed, but at the end of the day, the DA 1059 was still glowing and I had completed the course.
I concur with SGM (Join to see) that this is not an EO situation. And for the reasons that he states.
I do think that there is room to challenge the policy, but in order to do so, you need to see it in writing. If it is not in writing - the old "unspoken generally accepted standard", than they are wrong and your Soldier should be considered.
The question that I'd be asking myself if I were the commandant is did the best Soldier receive the honor of HG/DHG? If I felt like the best Soldier was one that did the walk, I would be looking to change the policy.
When I was in BNCOC, I demolished the rest of the class with GPA, assessments, and written work. From what I got in feedback, it wasn't close. But I was not the DHG - in fact I think that they didn't have one that cycle specifically because of this - and they told me that the reason why was that I was a SFC. (Long story short, when I was promoted to SFC in 2005, I was on my second tour in a row with only a few months in between. At the time, there was a BNCOC waiver, but you had to complete it within 12 months of redeployment or they took the stripe away.) I thought that I got jobbed, but at the end of the day, the DA 1059 was still glowing and I had completed the course.
I concur with SGM (Join to see) that this is not an EO situation. And for the reasons that he states.
I do think that there is room to challenge the policy, but in order to do so, you need to see it in writing. If it is not in writing - the old "unspoken generally accepted standard", than they are wrong and your Soldier should be considered.
The question that I'd be asking myself if I were the commandant is did the best Soldier receive the honor of HG/DHG? If I felt like the best Soldier was one that did the walk, I would be looking to change the policy.
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