Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC)
Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC)
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So I failed ALC as a 91A this past August. I'm not shocked as I have little to no experience as one. I was DA Selected after completing my SSD2. Per regulations, after the failure I was barred by my Commander. With my Commander having previous knowledge of my lack of skill in the MOS, he offered to conditionally lift my bar, as long as my previous CMF(74) would take me back. I have no value to him as I've hardly worked in the position at all, as I was relieved from my duties shortly after reporting to the unit. I talked to my previous branch, and they agreed to do so as long as I could get the bar lifted. My issue is that my SGM seems hell bent on forcing me to go back to 91A ALC. I've read both the AR & DA PAM 601-280, and nowhere does it mention I have to go back to the specific ALC I failed, just ALC in general; which I obviously have to do to progress.
I don't mean to come off as unprofessional or rude, but I don't really see how this is honestly his business. Nowhere in the regulations does it mention the SGM having any impact or influence over my bar proceedings whatsoever; his signature never touches it. This should be between myself, my Company Commander who initiated it, and the Battalion Commander who approved it. What I don't understand is why he would waste Battalion funds to send me back to the school, when I'm just going to reclass anyway and leave the unit. I don't understand his ideology he's been "shorthanded" an NCO for over 2 years and instead of just allowing me to move on with my career he insists on keeping me around. He's going to lose me one way or another, either through reclass or through ETS. I'm obviously preferable to one option more than the other, so I'll do what I can to continue my career.
I'm presently 9 months away from ETS, so I can't attend ALC anyways as I have to have 6 months remaining after graduation. To my knowledge I cannot extend either, because I'm within 24 months of ETS. Even if the extension was possible, I'm at 11 years in March and I believe with a balanced MOS I have until 12 years before I hit RCP. So that means I would have to graduate ALC and get promoted all in 13 months or less, that's a tall order for someone who's never really done the job before at all. I believe that what's best for the Army, my unit, and myself, is that we mutually agree to part ways.
The AR says the bar can be removed by an authority at or higher than the approving authority, so should I just appeal to my Brigade Commander or my first General Officer in the chain? I've previously tried to discuss this with my SGM(who seems to be directly influencing my BC and CC) but he's firm in his position, but again I really don't see how that matters? Should I explore some other options beforehand? The Commander has already signed my memo to lift the bar, and I've honestly just ran out of patience. Any advice would be appreciated.
I don't mean to come off as unprofessional or rude, but I don't really see how this is honestly his business. Nowhere in the regulations does it mention the SGM having any impact or influence over my bar proceedings whatsoever; his signature never touches it. This should be between myself, my Company Commander who initiated it, and the Battalion Commander who approved it. What I don't understand is why he would waste Battalion funds to send me back to the school, when I'm just going to reclass anyway and leave the unit. I don't understand his ideology he's been "shorthanded" an NCO for over 2 years and instead of just allowing me to move on with my career he insists on keeping me around. He's going to lose me one way or another, either through reclass or through ETS. I'm obviously preferable to one option more than the other, so I'll do what I can to continue my career.
I'm presently 9 months away from ETS, so I can't attend ALC anyways as I have to have 6 months remaining after graduation. To my knowledge I cannot extend either, because I'm within 24 months of ETS. Even if the extension was possible, I'm at 11 years in March and I believe with a balanced MOS I have until 12 years before I hit RCP. So that means I would have to graduate ALC and get promoted all in 13 months or less, that's a tall order for someone who's never really done the job before at all. I believe that what's best for the Army, my unit, and myself, is that we mutually agree to part ways.
The AR says the bar can be removed by an authority at or higher than the approving authority, so should I just appeal to my Brigade Commander or my first General Officer in the chain? I've previously tried to discuss this with my SGM(who seems to be directly influencing my BC and CC) but he's firm in his position, but again I really don't see how that matters? Should I explore some other options beforehand? The Commander has already signed my memo to lift the bar, and I've honestly just ran out of patience. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC)
Retention
NCOES
79S: Career Counselor
Advanced Leaders Course (ALC formerly BNCOC) Retention NCOES 79S: Career Counselor
Posted 4 y ago
Responses: 5
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19
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Man.... There is so much going on here where every single person is just wrong.
First, your company commander can't make it a condition to have your bar removed if you return to your MOS. The choice is not yours, not your old Branch's and not your Commander's. If you want to return to your old MOS you will need an memo from your old proponent, submit a voluntary reclass, and then HRC decides based on the strengths.
Second, you can't return to any ALC while you are barred. You are correct that you cannot be scheduled for ALC if you don't have at least six months to ETS upon graduation. You are incorrect about extending, and you can extend within your reenlistment window. Also, the RCP for a SGT is 14 years, not 12 years. You have plenty of time to extend and get promoted. In addition, once you graduate ALC, it's just a matter of time and points till you promote, so HRC will grant an ETP to extend past your RCP if needed.
As for ALC funding, the unit doesn't fund that, it's funded through MTSA funds. It does not come from unit funds but a centrally billed line of accounting the Army provides for schools.
As for the reclass, if you reclass now it will be a reenlistment for reclass with no training. That's a three year reenlistment. Since your MOS is balanced and your old one is Under strength, it would be approved. However, I've never seen anyone try who had a failed ALC and that could be a show stopper. But, if you don't do it before you hit 11 years and 29 days, it will be too late to do it while you're in your window.
As for your SGM, his place is as the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the BN CDR. It is his place to counsel the CDR on things like enlisted progression and it's his duty to have his nose in things like this. The biggest ulissue being that it will take months to receive the 4187 signed by your first General officer in your chain of command to allow you to attend ALC a second time.
As for going above the BN CDR, did you miss the part of the reg that says your BDE CDR is the approval authority to bar someone with over 10 years? Either your bar was incorrectly applied, or you are unaware of who approved it. The appeal authority for you is your division commander. When your bar was approved, you were required to be counseled on it. At that time you had 7 days to appeal the bar. You could certainly write to the division commander, but I would never see a division commander overrule a BDE CDR. If there was an error in the way it was applied or approved, you could bring it to the division IG.
One last thing, changing your MOS will not move you. You will just be a 74D in your same battalion until your branch decides to move you. Which would usually be at least three years on station. Possibly longer if they want you to complete your KD time. Even if you met all the requirements to move immediately, it would be months, or even a year until you PCS.
First, your company commander can't make it a condition to have your bar removed if you return to your MOS. The choice is not yours, not your old Branch's and not your Commander's. If you want to return to your old MOS you will need an memo from your old proponent, submit a voluntary reclass, and then HRC decides based on the strengths.
Second, you can't return to any ALC while you are barred. You are correct that you cannot be scheduled for ALC if you don't have at least six months to ETS upon graduation. You are incorrect about extending, and you can extend within your reenlistment window. Also, the RCP for a SGT is 14 years, not 12 years. You have plenty of time to extend and get promoted. In addition, once you graduate ALC, it's just a matter of time and points till you promote, so HRC will grant an ETP to extend past your RCP if needed.
As for ALC funding, the unit doesn't fund that, it's funded through MTSA funds. It does not come from unit funds but a centrally billed line of accounting the Army provides for schools.
As for the reclass, if you reclass now it will be a reenlistment for reclass with no training. That's a three year reenlistment. Since your MOS is balanced and your old one is Under strength, it would be approved. However, I've never seen anyone try who had a failed ALC and that could be a show stopper. But, if you don't do it before you hit 11 years and 29 days, it will be too late to do it while you're in your window.
As for your SGM, his place is as the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the BN CDR. It is his place to counsel the CDR on things like enlisted progression and it's his duty to have his nose in things like this. The biggest ulissue being that it will take months to receive the 4187 signed by your first General officer in your chain of command to allow you to attend ALC a second time.
As for going above the BN CDR, did you miss the part of the reg that says your BDE CDR is the approval authority to bar someone with over 10 years? Either your bar was incorrectly applied, or you are unaware of who approved it. The appeal authority for you is your division commander. When your bar was approved, you were required to be counseled on it. At that time you had 7 days to appeal the bar. You could certainly write to the division commander, but I would never see a division commander overrule a BDE CDR. If there was an error in the way it was applied or approved, you could bring it to the division IG.
One last thing, changing your MOS will not move you. You will just be a 74D in your same battalion until your branch decides to move you. Which would usually be at least three years on station. Possibly longer if they want you to complete your KD time. Even if you met all the requirements to move immediately, it would be months, or even a year until you PCS.
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SSG (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see)
Sir,
That's an avenue I'm willing to explore. I should be 75% complete with my Bachelor's prior to ETS and I have earned my Associate's degree and I still have my G.I. Bill to use as a civilian. I've even considered the extension just so that when I leave if I never put on this uniform again I at least have my degree and can pursue graduate level education with my G.I. Bill. The drill pay for officers in the Reserve and NG isn't too bad for a weekend once you start to climb the ranks.
Sir,
That's an avenue I'm willing to explore. I should be 75% complete with my Bachelor's prior to ETS and I have earned my Associate's degree and I still have my G.I. Bill to use as a civilian. I've even considered the extension just so that when I leave if I never put on this uniform again I at least have my degree and can pursue graduate level education with my G.I. Bill. The drill pay for officers in the Reserve and NG isn't too bad for a weekend once you start to climb the ranks.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) I enjoyed my time as NCO and Officer in the Reserves. Only came back active to go through anesthesia school after getting my BSN in the Reserves. By the time I did the education and my payback i had accumulated almost 17 active years. The healthcare and pension were ultimately worth it. But there was a time I swore i would have never never came back active duty.
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SSG (Join to see)
SFC,
Your recommendation couldn't have been anymore spot on. BDE CC reviewed my bar packet and sent it to the BDE CSM. BDE CSM made his recommendation to the BDE CDR and the bar was lifted in 48 hours. There were so many things wrong with the packet itself and the plan of action was nonexistent.
I have a signed 3340 and I am going over my options this afternoon. Thank you so much.
Your recommendation couldn't have been anymore spot on. BDE CC reviewed my bar packet and sent it to the BDE CSM. BDE CSM made his recommendation to the BDE CDR and the bar was lifted in 48 hours. There were so many things wrong with the packet itself and the plan of action was nonexistent.
I have a signed 3340 and I am going over my options this afternoon. Thank you so much.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) I'm just really glad you were able to get this resolved. ALC is a career show stopper if it doesn't get fixed in time. Good luck!
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT,
Unfortunately I do. The "needs of the Army" is an unquenchable beast. That's where I feel the regulation needs to be amended. I would totally understand if this is all I did since 2008. But Big Army took my ERB and saw my TIS, TIG, points, etc and said I had to go to ALC immediately. Unfortunately I'm more than just a piece of paper.
Unfortunately I do. The "needs of the Army" is an unquenchable beast. That's where I feel the regulation needs to be amended. I would totally understand if this is all I did since 2008. But Big Army took my ERB and saw my TIS, TIG, points, etc and said I had to go to ALC immediately. Unfortunately I'm more than just a piece of paper.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Multiple MOS's are pretty common for Reservists. I've met mechanics with 8-9 MOS's.
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If you don't think the Co is not going to listen to his SENIOR adviser SGM/CSM, think you are going to have a very rocky road ahead. Everything on all sides seems to be wrong. Co does not have a lot to do with your MOS, that is HRC, He only controls the bar. Have you had a QUIET sit down with the SGM/CSM about the whys and your career instead of down playing his job? What does HRC say? What does your next higher level of command say?
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SSG (Join to see)
SGM,
I haven't spoken to BDE yet, but I believe I will in the next few days. I've tried to keep this at the lowest level for as long as I can, and until just two days ago so far I was successful in my pursuit.
I understand that my SGM "believes" he's doing what's best for me, but I believe that his position is shortsighted. As I said before, even if I were to pass ALC, I'm still out the door. I had no value to his organization before, and I find it odd that now they want to "invest" in me. I personally believe this is just a veiled attempt to build paperwork on me for separation as my 180 days in only a few short weeks away.
I haven't spoken to BDE yet, but I believe I will in the next few days. I've tried to keep this at the lowest level for as long as I can, and until just two days ago so far I was successful in my pursuit.
I understand that my SGM "believes" he's doing what's best for me, but I believe that his position is shortsighted. As I said before, even if I were to pass ALC, I'm still out the door. I had no value to his organization before, and I find it odd that now they want to "invest" in me. I personally believe this is just a veiled attempt to build paperwork on me for separation as my 180 days in only a few short weeks away.
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