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Posted on Dec 1, 2016
Marines' requirements for infantry officers are unrealistic, Army colonel says
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Editor's note: The following is an opinion piece. The writer is not employed by Military Times and the views expressed here do not necessarily represent those of Military Times or its editorial staff.
Eight women have now successfully completed the Combat Endurance Test (CET) at the Marine Corps Infantry Officer Course (IOC), the Basic School commander told the Defense Advisory Council on Women in the Services, Sept. 13. Colonel Mark Clingan said the CET is a screening tool used to weed out officers who are not likely to pass the course. However, none of the eight women who passed the CET graduated IOC.
Interestingly, Clingan further reported that six of the eight women had passed the CET in the top 50 percent of their class and two of the women had passed in the top 10 percent of their class. All eight who passed the CET were later eliminated during hikes when loads began to exceed 100 pounds. When committee members asked how it was that enlisted Marine women had been so much more successful in infantry training, they were told that infantry officers must be able to carry a “sustainment load” of up to 152 pounds for 9.3 miles at a 3-mile-per-hour pace in order to graduate from their course, while loads are much lighter (62 pounds) for enlisted Marines. According to Clingan, basic enlisted infantry training trains Marines to a much lower bar with the expectation that once they reach their units they will be trained up to meet the 152 pound, 9.3 miles at the 3-mile-per-hour standard.
Later in the briefing the Marines showed a slide that quoted the 2015 National Defense Authorization Act which requires that occupational standards “accurately predict performance of actual, regular and recurring duties of a military occupation.”
During the break, I asked one of the Marine representatives how often Marines actually carry 152 pounds that distance and he said “infrequently .” I was still curious, so I polled a few Marine infantry officers to find out how often they had carried loads of 95 to 152 pounds during their deployments. I was a bit surprised by the responses because I thought the requirement might at least come close to some operational example. However, one infantry officer with two combat deployments, one as a weapons company commander said, “I'm trying to imagine the type of fighting and tactical task that requires you to move around administratively in an AO with 150-plus pounds on your back… Nothing is impossible, but trying to come up with a situation, mission and METT-T where this would be required is… a unicorn in my opinion.”
I also received this response: “I won't lie, I can't get my mental digits around 152 pounds. At an actual unit, that is just a non-starter to me (but) I can totally see the staff at IOC running wild just to see what the lieutenants can handle and endure as part of the rite of passage that is IOC.”
And then there was this response; “On the regular infantry battalion side, I would challenge anyone to go to Camp Pendleton and find a platoon or company in the fleet that can meet that standard (152 pound load/9 miles/3+ mph) or that is spending the time to work up to that standard.”
So my question to the Marine Corps is -- where did they get these standards, who validated them and who can actually meet them? They don’t appear to be operationally based and it sounds like no Marine infantry unit can meet them. They certainly aren’t regular or recurring requirements to be a Marine infantryman -- which means they don’t meet legal standards.
Retired Army Col. Ellen Haring is a fellow at Women in International Security, where she directs the Combat Integration Initiative project. Haring is a graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and earned her doctorate from the George Mason University School for Conflict Analysis and Resolution.
What do you think of the physical requirements for IOC? Send your experience and perspective to Marine Corps Times.
Eight women have now successfully completed the Combat Endurance Test (CET) at the Marine Corps Infantry Officer Course (IOC), the Basic School commander told the Defense Advisory Council on Women in the Services, Sept. 13. Colonel Mark Clingan said the CET is a screening tool used to weed out officers who are not likely to pass the course. However, none of the eight women who passed the CET graduated IOC.
Interestingly, Clingan further reported that six of the eight women had passed the CET in the top 50 percent of their class and two of the women had passed in the top 10 percent of their class. All eight who passed the CET were later eliminated during hikes when loads began to exceed 100 pounds. When committee members asked how it was that enlisted Marine women had been so much more successful in infantry training, they were told that infantry officers must be able to carry a “sustainment load” of up to 152 pounds for 9.3 miles at a 3-mile-per-hour pace in order to graduate from their course, while loads are much lighter (62 pounds) for enlisted Marines. According to Clingan, basic enlisted infantry training trains Marines to a much lower bar with the expectation that once they reach their units they will be trained up to meet the 152 pound, 9.3 miles at the 3-mile-per-hour standard.
Later in the briefing the Marines showed a slide that quoted the 2015 National Defense Authorization Act which requires that occupational standards “accurately predict performance of actual, regular and recurring duties of a military occupation.”
During the break, I asked one of the Marine representatives how often Marines actually carry 152 pounds that distance and he said “infrequently .” I was still curious, so I polled a few Marine infantry officers to find out how often they had carried loads of 95 to 152 pounds during their deployments. I was a bit surprised by the responses because I thought the requirement might at least come close to some operational example. However, one infantry officer with two combat deployments, one as a weapons company commander said, “I'm trying to imagine the type of fighting and tactical task that requires you to move around administratively in an AO with 150-plus pounds on your back… Nothing is impossible, but trying to come up with a situation, mission and METT-T where this would be required is… a unicorn in my opinion.”
I also received this response: “I won't lie, I can't get my mental digits around 152 pounds. At an actual unit, that is just a non-starter to me (but) I can totally see the staff at IOC running wild just to see what the lieutenants can handle and endure as part of the rite of passage that is IOC.”
And then there was this response; “On the regular infantry battalion side, I would challenge anyone to go to Camp Pendleton and find a platoon or company in the fleet that can meet that standard (152 pound load/9 miles/3+ mph) or that is spending the time to work up to that standard.”
So my question to the Marine Corps is -- where did they get these standards, who validated them and who can actually meet them? They don’t appear to be operationally based and it sounds like no Marine infantry unit can meet them. They certainly aren’t regular or recurring requirements to be a Marine infantryman -- which means they don’t meet legal standards.
Retired Army Col. Ellen Haring is a fellow at Women in International Security, where she directs the Combat Integration Initiative project. Haring is a graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and earned her doctorate from the George Mason University School for Conflict Analysis and Resolution.
What do you think of the physical requirements for IOC? Send your experience and perspective to Marine Corps Times.
Marines' requirements for infantry officers are unrealistic, Army colonel says
Posted from marinecorpstimes.com
Marines
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Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 13
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When I went through IOC, one of the points that was made continuously was that up to now in our many weeks (dripping sarcasm) of Marine Corps experience, almost all physical fitness evaluations were made after a good nights sleep, during a period of good healthy meals, when you had not been physically tasked with demanding physical activity for days. NOT ANYMORE LOOOOTENNNNNNANT. Welcome to Marine Corps Infantry.
In a cold weather mountain warfare training environment I carried over 160lbs, helped pull an ahkio, and snow shoed or skied through and over waist deep snow for 11 days at altitudes above 8000ft. I have no idea who the REMF's were that the Army Colonel were talking to but they were not rifle platoon or weapons platoon leaders.
During WWII how long did German and Soviet soldiers on the eastern front and Finland carryout similar activities. I bet it was more than 11 days. Sometime for the infantry the side that wins is the side that still has enough left in them to crawl on their hands and knees and beat their enemy to death with an e-tool.
At IOC we were not allowed to not be dogged ass tired.
For the 1st two weeks if it was a garrison day, we started with a 10-15 mile force march under a TO&E load for an 81 mm mortar man's load, which I believe was 142lbs at the time, a double running of the obstacle course with deuce gear and M-16, a running of the "yellow brick road" (a rough terrain obstacle course at the Basic School) with deuce gear and M-16, followed by an evaluated PFT in boots and utes. We were expected to pass the PFT with a 1st class score of 270 points and not less than 80 points in any event. There was no rest between any events of the morning other than a quick pulse check and BP check by a Corpsman. Then we started our "Infantry training day" which was usually four hours of field training, before lunch and four hours of academic training after lunch. We then finished off the day with a 10-12 mile force march.
For the 1st two weeks, if it was a field day we filled in the fighting positions we had completed the previous day, force marched 10-15 miles, dug doctrinally correct two man fighting holes completed our fire plan sketches and then started our "administrative field training block" typically 8-10 hours. We then dug supplementary fighting positions. As soon as darkness fell, we commenced our night fighting or patrolling exercises.
There was no weekend off until the third weekend. I believe we dropped six out of 38 Lt's due to Drop on Request (DOR) or injury in the 1st two weeks. Nobody dropped after that in my class.
Not one of us considered this regimen hazing, or a rite of passage. A 2nd Lt who failed physically in front of his platoon was dead in the water for the remainder of his FMF tour, and his career was spent circling the drain until his obligation was up.
When the lads didn't believe they could go another step, a good Lt could pick up a would-be stragglers pack and show them that they still had more in them. You had to shame the tribe into not being beat by a "college kid boot ass butter bar". This wasn't about bravado or some testosterone thing. It was to inspire them with confidence that even when you and they were dead tired you had your wits about you and could make sure they were tactically "snug as a bug tucked in rug" after prolonged physical demand in the combat theater. The leader who gets tired and lets his men rest because it is easy, gets Marines killed. The leader who knows what Marines are capable of because he can and has taken them to the edge of the performance envelope, and then can still inspect and correct, then attend staff meetings and operational order briefings, brings his men back alive. That is Infantry leadership. We don't get crew rest.
PS The only time Marine Infantry get trucks is when we rescued ones the Army left behind :)
PSS My wife says suck it up buttercup to the Army Colonel who wrote the article :)
In a cold weather mountain warfare training environment I carried over 160lbs, helped pull an ahkio, and snow shoed or skied through and over waist deep snow for 11 days at altitudes above 8000ft. I have no idea who the REMF's were that the Army Colonel were talking to but they were not rifle platoon or weapons platoon leaders.
During WWII how long did German and Soviet soldiers on the eastern front and Finland carryout similar activities. I bet it was more than 11 days. Sometime for the infantry the side that wins is the side that still has enough left in them to crawl on their hands and knees and beat their enemy to death with an e-tool.
At IOC we were not allowed to not be dogged ass tired.
For the 1st two weeks if it was a garrison day, we started with a 10-15 mile force march under a TO&E load for an 81 mm mortar man's load, which I believe was 142lbs at the time, a double running of the obstacle course with deuce gear and M-16, a running of the "yellow brick road" (a rough terrain obstacle course at the Basic School) with deuce gear and M-16, followed by an evaluated PFT in boots and utes. We were expected to pass the PFT with a 1st class score of 270 points and not less than 80 points in any event. There was no rest between any events of the morning other than a quick pulse check and BP check by a Corpsman. Then we started our "Infantry training day" which was usually four hours of field training, before lunch and four hours of academic training after lunch. We then finished off the day with a 10-12 mile force march.
For the 1st two weeks, if it was a field day we filled in the fighting positions we had completed the previous day, force marched 10-15 miles, dug doctrinally correct two man fighting holes completed our fire plan sketches and then started our "administrative field training block" typically 8-10 hours. We then dug supplementary fighting positions. As soon as darkness fell, we commenced our night fighting or patrolling exercises.
There was no weekend off until the third weekend. I believe we dropped six out of 38 Lt's due to Drop on Request (DOR) or injury in the 1st two weeks. Nobody dropped after that in my class.
Not one of us considered this regimen hazing, or a rite of passage. A 2nd Lt who failed physically in front of his platoon was dead in the water for the remainder of his FMF tour, and his career was spent circling the drain until his obligation was up.
When the lads didn't believe they could go another step, a good Lt could pick up a would-be stragglers pack and show them that they still had more in them. You had to shame the tribe into not being beat by a "college kid boot ass butter bar". This wasn't about bravado or some testosterone thing. It was to inspire them with confidence that even when you and they were dead tired you had your wits about you and could make sure they were tactically "snug as a bug tucked in rug" after prolonged physical demand in the combat theater. The leader who gets tired and lets his men rest because it is easy, gets Marines killed. The leader who knows what Marines are capable of because he can and has taken them to the edge of the performance envelope, and then can still inspect and correct, then attend staff meetings and operational order briefings, brings his men back alive. That is Infantry leadership. We don't get crew rest.
PS The only time Marine Infantry get trucks is when we rescued ones the Army left behind :)
PSS My wife says suck it up buttercup to the Army Colonel who wrote the article :)
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Cpl Jeff N.
Maj John Bell - Thanks for the great response. People seem to forget that combat is not an equal opportunity event. You either outperform you enemy or you may pay with your life. I think the standard basic load for a Marine is about 98 lbs and that is before any of the extra's that always need to be carried (comm gear, lots of extra ammo, crew served weapons etc.). People also seem to forget that you may need to make that hump with all the gear, drop it and be ready to engage the enemy, not take a few hour break. It is not for the faint of heart and all the chatter about lowering standards is always by the losers that cannot make the standard but want to find a way into the club. They want to be able to say they were on the tip of the spear. No thanks, underperformers and under achievers will get people killed.
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SSgt (Join to see)
A little older Corps here. My combat load (for training in 1984-1990) averaged 90 pounds. As a communicator I also had to carry a PRC-77 and a KY-38 unit plus extra batteries. 14 pounds for the radio, 3 pounds apiece for the batteries (usually 1 in and 1 extra) and about 20 pounds for the KY-38 (2 batteries in plus 2 extra). 14+18+20=52 pounds for comm. 140-ish pounds total.
It was such a relief when the KY gear we had was finally dumped. We got the new crypto gear that was about 5 pounds and fed off the radio power. Dropped about 30 pounds and freed up a ton of room.
It was such a relief when the KY gear we had was finally dumped. We got the new crypto gear that was about 5 pounds and fed off the radio power. Dropped about 30 pounds and freed up a ton of room.
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Maj John Bell
SSgt (Join to see) - I desperately want to give you a hard time about being "spoiled" by the Marines' change in gear, But I am from the PRC-77 and KY-38 days myself. I carried a battery or two in my load. I feel the same way about radio operators as I do Corpsman. Don't screw with mine unless you are looking for a fight.
My wife grilled me in TBS and IOC for Fire Mission RTO procedures for all supporting arms. She can still 34 years later call for fire. But when I got to the FMF didn't need to know them. I always had RTO that within two weeks of being assigned to me, would slip me a scrip with a target correction and a round request. The only thing I ever had to do was "thumbs up" or "thumbs down and point". Loved my RTO's.
My wife grilled me in TBS and IOC for Fire Mission RTO procedures for all supporting arms. She can still 34 years later call for fire. But when I got to the FMF didn't need to know them. I always had RTO that within two weeks of being assigned to me, would slip me a scrip with a target correction and a round request. The only thing I ever had to do was "thumbs up" or "thumbs down and point". Loved my RTO's.
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Since retired Army Col. Ellen Haring is a graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point she was exposed to all of the combat arms and special forces familiarization training in the summers of Beast Barracks and the Camp Buckner phase. In addition she went through the grueling physical training including the good-old indoor obstacle course.
I understand her intent to find out where the 152 pound load/9 miles/3+ mph standard came from. I was surprised that none of the Marine Corps officers she spoke with could answer.
IMHO as an Army infantry officer 152 pounds could well represent carrying a wounded comrade-in-arms as far as you can to get him/her to a waiting medevac, triage station, etc.
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL COL Mikel J. Burroughs LTC Stephen C. Capt Seid Waddell CW5 (Join to see) SFC William Farrell SSgt (Join to see) SGT (Join to see) SP5 Mark Kuzinski SGT Forrest Stewart SPC (Join to see) SrA Christopher Wright
Maj William W. 'Bill' Price Capt Tom Brown SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"SSgt Robert Marx TSgt Joe C. SGT Robert George PO2 Ed C.
I understand her intent to find out where the 152 pound load/9 miles/3+ mph standard came from. I was surprised that none of the Marine Corps officers she spoke with could answer.
IMHO as an Army infantry officer 152 pounds could well represent carrying a wounded comrade-in-arms as far as you can to get him/her to a waiting medevac, triage station, etc.
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL COL Mikel J. Burroughs LTC Stephen C. Capt Seid Waddell CW5 (Join to see) SFC William Farrell SSgt (Join to see) SGT (Join to see) SP5 Mark Kuzinski SGT Forrest Stewart SPC (Join to see) SrA Christopher Wright
Maj William W. 'Bill' Price Capt Tom Brown SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"SSgt Robert Marx TSgt Joe C. SGT Robert George PO2 Ed C.
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SSgt (Join to see)
If you look at Marine Corps history in WW-II, Korea and Vietnam there were many times that it was load everything you can cause we got 20 miles to get in/out of the fighting. Yes, most is dropped the minute 1 bullet flies, but getting there, getting back (with wounded) is what this particular training is for.
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And yet the Marine Corps still graduates Marine Infantry Officers every cycle. She sounds envious. Maybe her expectations are unrealistic.
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