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E-9 - SGM
E-9 - SGM
Posted on Jun 10, 2018
Why are there no Masters Degree (Funding) programs available for NCOs?
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The graduate degree program is embedded in the Officer career path. Typically, you see them starting a Masters degree somewhere between Captain and Major. However, it is 2018 and the Enlisted side of the house either doesn't have a program embedded in our career paths or it has one in the infancy stage (E-9 pilot program at USASMA).
I've come across comments online that O's are required to have degrees while Enlisted are not. However, having a degree is becoming a huge discriminator for Senior NCO promotions. Yet, we don't have many options that would allow us to pursue graduate degrees and often we have little to no time to complete them. On the flip side, O's have a program where they can go to school to complete their Masters. The Army keeps pushing for a more intelligent, competent, and professional Enlisted force but we still having that gap.
I've been thinking about this after I went to talk to an educational counselor. I finished my Bachelors Degree about a year ago and had to start using my GI Bill since TA won't cover me for a Masters Degree for the next two years or so and there are no other programs that could help me to continue without having to wait (currently waiting for SFC board results). TA policy currently requires me to wait until 10 years in service before I can use it again for a Masters Degree since I used it for a Bachelors Degree. I will be done with my Masters by the time TA is available again which it frustrates me a little since the two options for me where GI Bill or wait for 2+ years.
***UPDATE*** Just to clarify, my post wasn't intended to say that NCOs aren't afforded time to do it (I'm doing mine online as we speak). It was directed to the couple of funding options available.
***UPDATE #2*** The Army released directive 2018-09 which addresses my question. NCOs, WOs, or Os that want to pursue a Masters Degree program can now use TA once they complete ALC, WOBC, or BOLC. It looks like this was a question that has been around because it was addressed by the Army.
***UPDATE #3*** straight out of DA PAM 600-3 (Officer Professional Development and Professional Model). All I'm trying to say is that it is spelled out in a reg that there are different programs available to Officers for Advanced Degree programs where we barely have them for the Enlisted.
4–16. Civilian education
a. The Army Advanced Civilian Schooling program has two objectives: to meet Army requirements for advanced
education and to provide selected officers the opportunity to satisfy their educational aspirations.
b. Company grade officers are required to obtain a baccalaureate degree from a qualifying educational institution
prior to attending the CCC.
c. Officers should take advantage of opportunities for advanced education and should consider their civilian
education background when determining their qualifications for study in a given discipline. Officers who want to
pursue advanced degrees should do so in an academic discipline that supports their designated branch, FA or MOS. On
completion of schooling, officers are assigned by grade, branch, FA, MOS, civilian education level, and when possible,
academic discipline (or related discipline set) for initial utilization in an Army Educational Requirements System
validated position. In this manner, specific Army requirements are satisfied while simultaneously contributing to the
professional development of the officer corps and the satisfaction of an officer’s educational aspirations.
d. The appropriate proponent determines academic disciplines that support each branch, FA or MOS. See branch and
FA-specific sections below.
4–17. Education programs
Officers may pursue full-time studies toward a master’s or doctoral degree through either fully funded or partially
funded programs or a bachelor’s degree through the Degree Completion Program. Officers are encouraged to pursue
advanced degrees particularly when there is an opportunity to do so in coordination with resident training such as ILE
and SSC. Officers with liberal arts undergraduate degrees should not be dissuaded from their pursuit of graduate
education in the sciences. Available education programs are discussed in general below. (AR 621–1 governs specific
civil school programs.)
a. Fully-funded programs. Under these programs, the Army pays all tuition costs, provides officers with full pay and
allowances, and moves officers and their Families to the college or university of study. Normally, the period of
schooling does not exceed 18 months (24 months for participants in officer Career Satisfaction Program). Officers may
not draw veterans’ education benefits while participating in the Army fully funded program.
(1) Advanced degree program. Selected officers attend graduate school to meet specific Army requirements established
by the Army Educational Requirements System. While completing graduate studies, officers are assigned to
Army Educational Requirements System positions according to branch or FA, grade and appropriate academic skills.
Following graduation, utilization assignments will be served in accordance with AR 621–108 for a minimum of 24
months, and will normally occur immediately following such education, but no later than the second assignment
following education completion. Primary zone of consideration to attend graduate school normally occurs on completion
of the CCC, with sufficient basic branch or MOS experience, and 6 to 8 years of Federal commissioned service;
but no later than the 17th year of service.
I've come across comments online that O's are required to have degrees while Enlisted are not. However, having a degree is becoming a huge discriminator for Senior NCO promotions. Yet, we don't have many options that would allow us to pursue graduate degrees and often we have little to no time to complete them. On the flip side, O's have a program where they can go to school to complete their Masters. The Army keeps pushing for a more intelligent, competent, and professional Enlisted force but we still having that gap.
I've been thinking about this after I went to talk to an educational counselor. I finished my Bachelors Degree about a year ago and had to start using my GI Bill since TA won't cover me for a Masters Degree for the next two years or so and there are no other programs that could help me to continue without having to wait (currently waiting for SFC board results). TA policy currently requires me to wait until 10 years in service before I can use it again for a Masters Degree since I used it for a Bachelors Degree. I will be done with my Masters by the time TA is available again which it frustrates me a little since the two options for me where GI Bill or wait for 2+ years.
***UPDATE*** Just to clarify, my post wasn't intended to say that NCOs aren't afforded time to do it (I'm doing mine online as we speak). It was directed to the couple of funding options available.
***UPDATE #2*** The Army released directive 2018-09 which addresses my question. NCOs, WOs, or Os that want to pursue a Masters Degree program can now use TA once they complete ALC, WOBC, or BOLC. It looks like this was a question that has been around because it was addressed by the Army.
***UPDATE #3*** straight out of DA PAM 600-3 (Officer Professional Development and Professional Model). All I'm trying to say is that it is spelled out in a reg that there are different programs available to Officers for Advanced Degree programs where we barely have them for the Enlisted.
4–16. Civilian education
a. The Army Advanced Civilian Schooling program has two objectives: to meet Army requirements for advanced
education and to provide selected officers the opportunity to satisfy their educational aspirations.
b. Company grade officers are required to obtain a baccalaureate degree from a qualifying educational institution
prior to attending the CCC.
c. Officers should take advantage of opportunities for advanced education and should consider their civilian
education background when determining their qualifications for study in a given discipline. Officers who want to
pursue advanced degrees should do so in an academic discipline that supports their designated branch, FA or MOS. On
completion of schooling, officers are assigned by grade, branch, FA, MOS, civilian education level, and when possible,
academic discipline (or related discipline set) for initial utilization in an Army Educational Requirements System
validated position. In this manner, specific Army requirements are satisfied while simultaneously contributing to the
professional development of the officer corps and the satisfaction of an officer’s educational aspirations.
d. The appropriate proponent determines academic disciplines that support each branch, FA or MOS. See branch and
FA-specific sections below.
4–17. Education programs
Officers may pursue full-time studies toward a master’s or doctoral degree through either fully funded or partially
funded programs or a bachelor’s degree through the Degree Completion Program. Officers are encouraged to pursue
advanced degrees particularly when there is an opportunity to do so in coordination with resident training such as ILE
and SSC. Officers with liberal arts undergraduate degrees should not be dissuaded from their pursuit of graduate
education in the sciences. Available education programs are discussed in general below. (AR 621–1 governs specific
civil school programs.)
a. Fully-funded programs. Under these programs, the Army pays all tuition costs, provides officers with full pay and
allowances, and moves officers and their Families to the college or university of study. Normally, the period of
schooling does not exceed 18 months (24 months for participants in officer Career Satisfaction Program). Officers may
not draw veterans’ education benefits while participating in the Army fully funded program.
(1) Advanced degree program. Selected officers attend graduate school to meet specific Army requirements established
by the Army Educational Requirements System. While completing graduate studies, officers are assigned to
Army Educational Requirements System positions according to branch or FA, grade and appropriate academic skills.
Following graduation, utilization assignments will be served in accordance with AR 621–108 for a minimum of 24
months, and will normally occur immediately following such education, but no later than the second assignment
following education completion. Primary zone of consideration to attend graduate school normally occurs on completion
of the CCC, with sufficient basic branch or MOS experience, and 6 to 8 years of Federal commissioned service;
but no later than the 17th year of service.
Education
Senior NCO
CSM
SGM
Master's Degree
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 48
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Ok, not that I don't love both the NCO Corps and the idea of getting a good education, but where exactly is the upside for the military in getting graduate degrees into the resumes of NCOs? It is true that military is demanding more of NCOs in terms of getting education but even the highest that is ever "required" is an undergraduate degree. As you stated, TA was enough to attain this. If you really wanted to, you said it yourself, you could have waited only a few uears and tapped TA yet again for the Master program. The fact is that nothing asked of an NCO at any level, with the exception of possibly a Corps, Major Command, or SEA, that necessitates having a Masters in amy particular field. In addition, the ability to send officers away for school is both easier in terms of keeping up with manpower requirements and beneficial for retention in the military; there exist far fewer slots for officers across the military so pulling a few out of the mix for a couple of years doesn't hurt much and in turn they owe more years pf service to the military whoch guarantees at least a semi experienced and well educated officer corps in the higher ranks. This becomes especially important in a time such as the present where private sector equivalents are far less demanding and pay far greater than the military can hope to offer; perhaps handing out no charge education keeps a few of the good ones on the payroll for longer. It really boils down to a cost-benefit analysis for the military. Allowing programs similar to those offered for the commissioned side would be extremely expensive and not serve any real purpose for the military as a whole.
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SGM Bill Johnson
I had a high school diploma for most of my career then finally got an Associates in General Studies. I talked to Four-Star Generals, Ambassadors, and other highly placed and well-educated people all the time starting as a PFC briefing VIPs in Korea. A degree is just a certificate that says you went to school; it is not an indicator of one's knowledge nor intelligence. I reviewed and edited my XO's Master's papers and raised his grade point average by close to a point. I write White papers on agricultural chemicals used to produce explosives in Iraq that was reviewed at the national level (it was thought a person with a doctorate wrote it). I created and established the CoIST program in the U.S. Army. Etc etc. Sounds like bragging, I know, but it was meant to show that a relatively uneducated Soldier that reads, researches, studies, and applies what they learned doesn't need a Master's Degree to work and communicate at a high level. (My apologies for tooting my own horn)
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1SG (Join to see)
The upside of an NCO having a master's degree an understanding of adult training and education well enough to develop and implement changes to eliminate decade long 10% course failure rate at SLC.
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
1SG (Join to see) your thought process is that those unable to pass something as simple as SLC would be more successful in grad school? And then they would have the skills required to pass SLC? That makes no sense. If you are not intelligent and or disciplined for an enlisted development school you are going to flunk out of probably undergrad long before a masters program
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1SG (Join to see)
SGT Joseph Gunderson no, my thought process is because of the knowledge I gained from the coursework for my master's degree, I was able to develop and implement changes to SLC (ANCOC at that time) that resulted in the elimination of a 10% course failure rate.
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Where you stationed? The National Intelligence University, run out of DIA is free and a good master's program. I have seen NCOs in the classes. I think they were mostly Air Force people. You would probably have to do the reserve version, one weekend a month if you are active duty.
I wouldn't hold my breath on the Army making a BA or MA a requirement for enlisted. There is no master's requirement for officers.
I wouldn't hold my breath on the Army making a BA or MA a requirement for enlisted. There is no master's requirement for officers.
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SFC (Join to see)
COL (Join to see) Is NIU only available to those located in the immediate area of a campus?
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Sgt William Margeson
No requirement for O's AS officers advance in rank, they go to various trade schools. Upon graduation they receive advanced degrees. Command and Staff school, National War Collage, plus others for the various services. Successful completion of these schools receive higher degrees. I do not know how the NCO school system works. ( been out for 40 + years. ) However for the schooling required, for 1st sgt/ msgt, degress should be awarded . Is it possible that senior officers do not want Sr. NCO'S to be as educated as they are ????
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COL (Join to see)
Sgt William Margeson I would have to say that is preposterous. I don’t think any officer would feel threatened by an educated NCO. They have completely different jobs. What is a Sr NCO’s job in a Corp, BDE, or even at a BN where the officer in charge is a mid grade officer? They are the advisor. They advise on Soldier matters. They don’t advise on operational or strategic planning. They look at moral, training levels, they provide the commander with an insight to the command, and lead the NCO support channel. So the schools where officers go and are awarded master level degrees is War College. All others schools, to include command and staff, require additional outside work to earn a degree. War College is required to make GO and the Army does award a degree for completion. No outside work required. I’m not sure if the other two services offer that but I have to think they would. So maybe it’s a hold back from the days of an aristocracy. Don’t really know but if a soldier want to get a masters on the Army’s dime they should look into assessing into the officer Corp. I did it. I was an NCO and I did the research on what it would take to reach my goals and continue as an enlisted wasn’t going to get me there.
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It may also be due to lack of qualifications. While there are some NCOs who have an undergraduate degree, some are from "diploma mills" or for-profit schools that have poor academic reputation. Good graduate schools may not want to admit them since their previous degree indicates weak potential.
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1LT (Join to see)
This type of generalization stemming from a holier than thou attitude is what is wrong with our military.
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