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LTC Immigration Judge
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Replace "gay" with "black", diesnthe refusal to serve still sound like "religious liberty"?

These cases have nothing to do with anyone's freedom of religion, and have everything to do with conservative Christians wanting the right to legally discriminate against people they don't like. Even more than that, it is the religious right pushing back against the nationwide legalization of same-sex marriage.

So sorry that social justice offends, but, ..., actually I'm not sorry at all, and I hope we keep seeing bigots punished until they finally get the message that gay rights, minority's rights, women's rights and the rights of every other group these zealots want to discriminate against are HUMAN RIGHTS and that discrimination is illegal, period.

If your religion insists that you must treat people badly, then the problem is your religion.
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PO2 Steven Erickson
PO2 Steven Erickson
>1 y
Thanks, LTC (Join to see). You've gone to the heart of the matter. Tattoos are just a smokescreen in my story.

But... is there a "Pass / Fail Test" or some observable line that a business cannot cross? Who makes these tests and sets these lines? I'm looking deeper into the question. Who decides how a business decides when to do business? What are we using to compare the business to when we say that they're discriminating? And if they ARE discriminating, what can / should we do?
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PO3 Steven Sherrill
PO3 Steven Sherrill
>1 y
LTC (Join to see) there used to be a comedy duo that traveled around Renaissance Festivals called Puke and Snot. One of their bits was a bit about politics. In it one acts in the guise of a man running for office, the other a reporter asking questions at a press conference. The subject of same sex marriage comes up. First is a comment about how he has been having the same sex with his wife for years. It is then rephrased in to gay marriage. The response "They have the right to be just as miserable as the rest of us." They do it for comedic effect, but that doesn't make the point invalid. Really is mind boggling to me that a legal contract (because lets face it that is all a marriage is) between two people that has no effect on their life at all could be so offensive to some people.
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LTC Immigration Judge
LTC (Join to see)
>1 y
PO2 Steven Erickson - As a business owner myself, the standard I use is if a person is rude or insulting to my staff, is unhygienic or insists after polite requests not to, to continue using foul language, then I will refuse service. NEVER is a refusal based on race, gender, age, political opinion, religion, nationality or any other immutable characteristic.

I am very much against religion, yet the only source from which I accept pro-Bono cases is Catholic Charities due to the fact that I trust them to adequately screen and to send me people truly in need rather than those who just want help for free. I am an unabashed feminist, yet I represent domestic violence offenders. I am against the use of illegal drugs, yet I defend drug addicts and dealers alike.

My, or any business owner's personal views have no bearing on buying and selling of goods and services in a for-profit setting.
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TSgt Kenneth Ellis
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They had to pay 135,000 for pain and suffering. If the Judge wanted to make a statement he would have made it for one dollar. They offerd to bake them anything but a wedding cake. It was never about the cake. But bullying people to acknowledge there life style. And tagg them as bigots. In California IRS records were leaked. A man donated to prop eight. His place of work was sourounded by protesters until his boss had to fire him. Because he wasn't allowed to do business.
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PO2 Steven Erickson
PO2 Steven Erickson
>1 y
TSgt Kenneth Ellis - great point. What really was their pain and suffering, and was it self-inflicted because they wanted to force this man to bake them a cake?
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CPT Battalion S 1 Oic
CPT (Join to see)
>1 y
If you can't force people to agree with you x the next best thing is to force an outward show of conformity. Good post, TSgt.
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PO2 Mark Saffell
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OK lets put this a different way. If the government forced me to serve the Gay wedding and I lost business because the local churches would no longer use me to do church events should the Government be required to compensate me for my lost business since they are directly responsible for that loss of business? Lets see if the people that read this want there cake and to eat it too. You cant let the government force you to do something and then let the government get away with not compensating me for the loss of business THEY caused!!!
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LTC Psychological Operations Officer
LTC (Join to see)
>1 y
So you think that when the government said that restaurants had to serve blacks that the government should have to pay a restaurant for their lost KKK business?
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PO2 Steven Erickson
PO2 Steven Erickson
>1 y
PO2 Mark Saffell - Excellent! When does the government or society become responsible for a business's success or failure? If a regulation imposed by the government causes a business to lose money, is that "too bad, so sad" or is there a responsibility somewhere?
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PO3 Steven Sherrill
PO3 Steven Sherrill
>1 y
PO2 Mark Saffell the problem with that then becomes burden of proof. You would, before any compensation came your way, need to prove the direct correlation between the two events. Good luck with that. Additionally, since people by their nature do not want to appear to be the shallow bigot, when conducting the investigation into why your business fell off, the business owner is not likely to get honest answers. The answers they are more likely to get is
"I just started using a different bakery"
"The quality dropped, so I stopped going"
Or some other BS answer that fails to prove your case. It is really sad that the churches don't practice the rhetoric that they espouse every Sunday. When they say turn the other cheek, or Jesus had a message of love, or any of the other sermon stuff that comes forth, then they turn around and say don't use Mark's bakery because he obeyed the anti discrimination law and made a cake for Bob and Bob's wedding, it smacks of hypocrisy. Though righteous indignation does nothing to save your business. Leaving you damned if you do damned if you don't.
If you don't, you are violating the law and opening yourself up to a lawsuit.
If you do, you are obeying the law, and opening yourself up to losing your customers.
Good luck navigating that shit storm.
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