Posted on Dec 15, 2018
Green Beret hero charged with murder after telling Bret Baier how he killed Taliban bomb-maker in...
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One of the reasons that I enjoy discussions on RP more than any other social media is that we are conversing with others who understand basic concepts such as ROE. Engage in this conversation with the general public, such as on Facebook, and you have to explain things like ROE (and generally they still don't get it). In this case, there is not argument. The "Green Beret hero" broke the rules. We can argue the "rules" but we can't argue the facts. Another fact is that the military authority at that time chose not to prosecute. Now there's an argument that we can have. Might it have been better to prosecute thus providing a test case in which the rules could have been judged on appeal? Now, there's a discussion worth having...
Green Beret hero charged with murder after telling Bret Baier how he killed Taliban bomb-maker in...
Posted from bizpacreview.comPosted in these groups: 
Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 3
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There are two schools of thought here, and unfortunately, they are conflicting at times.
The first is what is just, and the second what is legal.
Justice (that which is just) is not always carried out in the legal system. When this happens, many times we want to seek justice ourselves. When we lose faith in the legal system, we are tempted to issue our own punishment. When we choose this route, we, as well as the criminals, should expect to suffer the consequences when caught.
I admit, this is an unpopular view, but we have an obligation to uphold the laws of our military and our country, regardless of how stupid they are.
He willfully did something he knew was wrong. He broke the ROE (which, in my opinion, is designed to protect terrorists and insurgents more than the military or the public), and he knew what would happen if he was caught. When you do this, you are saying you are willing to accept the punishment for your actions.
Now, if an investigation clears him for some reason, or he is tried and found innocent, then I am happy for him. However, he should have to go through all of this.
If not, then isnt the military and public simply saying that the ROE is a “moot” piece of paper and we can do whatever we want?
Under his belief that he had no choice because of what he thought the bomb maker would do, I could have shot anyone under the belief that they might be an insurgent masking as a citizen?
Just food for thought and what will probably be an unpopular opinion.
Just to be clear, the subjective side of me is screaming “Let him go and leave him be!”, because I believe he was sure about the possibility this guy had in hurting others.
However, the objective side says that the ROE has to be upheld, or anyone can act independently and the ROE is useless.
I hated our ROE’s, but they were there, and we had to follow them.
On another note, if he knew it was wrong and they were looking at him for this very crime, why on earth would he go on National television and admit to it? I have to question his reasoning on this.
The first is what is just, and the second what is legal.
Justice (that which is just) is not always carried out in the legal system. When this happens, many times we want to seek justice ourselves. When we lose faith in the legal system, we are tempted to issue our own punishment. When we choose this route, we, as well as the criminals, should expect to suffer the consequences when caught.
I admit, this is an unpopular view, but we have an obligation to uphold the laws of our military and our country, regardless of how stupid they are.
He willfully did something he knew was wrong. He broke the ROE (which, in my opinion, is designed to protect terrorists and insurgents more than the military or the public), and he knew what would happen if he was caught. When you do this, you are saying you are willing to accept the punishment for your actions.
Now, if an investigation clears him for some reason, or he is tried and found innocent, then I am happy for him. However, he should have to go through all of this.
If not, then isnt the military and public simply saying that the ROE is a “moot” piece of paper and we can do whatever we want?
Under his belief that he had no choice because of what he thought the bomb maker would do, I could have shot anyone under the belief that they might be an insurgent masking as a citizen?
Just food for thought and what will probably be an unpopular opinion.
Just to be clear, the subjective side of me is screaming “Let him go and leave him be!”, because I believe he was sure about the possibility this guy had in hurting others.
However, the objective side says that the ROE has to be upheld, or anyone can act independently and the ROE is useless.
I hated our ROE’s, but they were there, and we had to follow them.
On another note, if he knew it was wrong and they were looking at him for this very crime, why on earth would he go on National television and admit to it? I have to question his reasoning on this.
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CPT Jack Durish
Thank you. That is exactly the sort of response I expect on RP. Two thoughts: (1) Is the ROE designed to protect the terrorist/enemy or the issuing authority (President?) When a nation orders its military forces to war and then constrains their efforts to wage that war, were they really committed to their war decision? (2) Who ever was happy with any ROE, any restriction of their ability to engage the enemy and win without endangering themselves? We certainly weren't happy with the ROE in Vietnam...
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SGT Michael Thorin
Great points CPT Jack Durish. The ROE in itself will never be embraced by those in the fight, and we have a tendency to pretend that we (any given war era) were constrained the most.
Never looked at it from that angle sir.
As far as a Nation with ROE’s not being committed to the war; I think it’s more a case of them being more committed to PR and the press than to the war.
Never looked at it from that angle sir.
As far as a Nation with ROE’s not being committed to the war; I think it’s more a case of them being more committed to PR and the press than to the war.
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LT Brad McInnis
SGT Michael Thorin - I worked in the JOC at CENTCOM when the country elected a new President. The transition staff sent us their proposed ROE, and even as a Navy guy, it never made sense to me. The Army and Marine folks were just dumbfounded at the proposed changes. Obviously, can't go too much into it, but the point is the ROE is what the CINC wants, and it is our job to support him or her, or get people in position to change their mind, or get out. When it is on the books, though, all you can do is roger that, and carry on.
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SGT Michael Thorin
We don’t have to like the rules, but we have to play by them LT Brad McInnis. You are spot on sir.
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ROE is ROE. He broke the ROE and knew it. To me, as shi@@y as I think it is personally, professionally all I can say is he should have followed the laws. As much as we don't like it (I was on the ROE review panel when Presidents switched over and would never want to do it again), we have to follow it.
I don't even want to touch why he would go on national tv to admit it, he is not Rob O'Neill (ST6) and had no protections. If he was advised to do that to get in front of it and have public opinion behind him, well that was pretty bad advice.
I don't even want to touch why he would go on national tv to admit it, he is not Rob O'Neill (ST6) and had no protections. If he was advised to do that to get in front of it and have public opinion behind him, well that was pretty bad advice.
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CPT Jack Durish
You have reached the core of the matter. He did it and got away with it. Why the hell would he go on TV and brag about it?
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CW3 Matt Hutchason
I’m sick and tired of the glory hound Rob O’Neill. I don’t wish to highjack your answer on here. Yes, the soldier referenced here was out of order and deserves whatever he’s got coming to him.
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LT Brad McInnis
CW3 Matt Hutchason - I'm with you on O'neill, from what some of my friends still in say, they are too....
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Sir, is he being charged due to new evidence, or because he ran his suck on national TV and someone with pink panties is running for cover?
They did not charge him in a formal way after they took back his Silver Star and took him out of SOF. But, now he said on Fox News...
I am not a lawyer. But from this limited info I do not think he will be found guilty of a reopened case. I think his lawyer/s will fog of war this thing up. For example, was the warrior for Su'en in a uniform? If not, was he a spy as well as a bomb maker? Was the discussion on Fox News about the same bomb maker, or another one who was pointing a weapon after several Marines were murdered and the trigger was pulled post haste out of fear for life and limb?
I wasn't there. So, it is hard for me to judge the man with this info within the article. At the point this Green Beret was at mentally after prolonged war, I'm thinking we need to see what a few doctors think about America sending this man to take care of business at the point of the Spear. He may deserve a Silver Star Sir.
They did not charge him in a formal way after they took back his Silver Star and took him out of SOF. But, now he said on Fox News...
I am not a lawyer. But from this limited info I do not think he will be found guilty of a reopened case. I think his lawyer/s will fog of war this thing up. For example, was the warrior for Su'en in a uniform? If not, was he a spy as well as a bomb maker? Was the discussion on Fox News about the same bomb maker, or another one who was pointing a weapon after several Marines were murdered and the trigger was pulled post haste out of fear for life and limb?
I wasn't there. So, it is hard for me to judge the man with this info within the article. At the point this Green Beret was at mentally after prolonged war, I'm thinking we need to see what a few doctors think about America sending this man to take care of business at the point of the Spear. He may deserve a Silver Star Sir.
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