Posted on Apr 30, 2017
Yamato vs. Iowa: What Would Have Happenned if the Two Most Powerful Battleships Fought?
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Fictional match-up
Yamato vs. Iowa: What Would Have Happenned if the Two Most Powerful Battleships Fought?
Posted from nationalinterest.orgPosted in these groups: 
WWII World War Two
Naval/Maritime History
WWII World War Two Naval/Maritime History
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 4
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Yamato's radar was a combination of air and sea search and was quite novel for the day. Like most things Japanese, when it worked it worked great, when it didn't...etc, etc. Her radar was also incredibly far ranging. So Iowa detection is going to happen before Iowa gets close. Again...assuming the Japanese set works...
Air - we won't opine on defensive capabilities but Japanese AAA and AA fire control are too slow (hand operated) and not linked. A Japanese AAA fire control radar cannot control a set amount of guns. This means that target coordinates have to be manually fed into weapons. Additionally, the Japanese have a variety of calibers which singles each other out when the 23mm magazine gets flooded and only 13mm ammo is available. Even the Japanese 5 inch guns are of two different types making things interesting. Also, the USN is using proximity fuses on AAA shells which makes killing planes a breeze. Yamato has a Claymore type shell for her 18 inch guns, but all topside crew have to be below decks before they can be fired. Not too ergonomic.
Compartmentation. Iowa and all American ships are built with damage control in mind and watertight integrity and fire fighting are built in. Iowa carries more fire hoses and anti-flooding gear than needed. As a result, any damage is easily mitigated. To Japan's credit, she understands her main naval foe is submarines and torpedo blisters are added. And they work as planned. But all bets are off when you're hit by 18+ torpedoes...
Speed and handling. Both ships are incredibly fast and highly maneuverable. At Leyte Gulf, Yamato out-turns her escorting destroyers and cruisers and attacking American destroyers. Iowa, likewise is capable of "turning and burning" at high speed. So its an even match there.
Armor. Both ships are proof against the other. Missouri takes a Kamikaze on the side and it doesn't even dent the ship. This has the equivalent explosive force of an 18 inch gun. USN post-war tests were unable to penetrate Yamato armor plates using a 16 inch gun. So for the moment we have a draw. Iowa would have difficulty (even at close range) penetrating Yamato and Yamato likewise, would fare no better.
Guns. The British were the first to have a naval 18 inch gun and loved it so much they never built another one. Actually a handful were approved and put to sea, but performance was so piss poor that it wasn't worth the effort and they were quietly (and quickly) retired. The British found that the high temperatures were pretty dangerous and that it was difficult/unlikely/impossible to fire more than a few salvos before the barrel became too dangerous. Both Iowa and Yamato fired their guns in anger and the Yamato results were as the British said. Fewer shots. Yamato fired at Leyte Gulf and temp alarms kept her fire at a modest level. Alternatively, Iowa and her three sisters, could rake a Japanese beach with shell fire. And did on many occasions.
THE FINAL RESULT
Like Bismarck, Yamato would never surrender and UNLIKE the Bismarck, death was actually something the average Japanese sailor looked forward to. So a quickee battle where both sides lob a few shells and then retire is not going to happen. As Yamato cannot pierce Iowa's turrets/hull/conn and as Iowa cannot do to the same to Yamato, both sides are going to have to go for a tactical kill. This means knocking out radar, jamming turrets, etc. Iowa's higher rate of fire will be a + in her favor. Additionally, Iowa having multiple fire control radars will be a + as well. If Iowa guessed/knew this, Yamato's one weak spot is her boat deck/flight deck. If Iowa can hole that, its all over with six salvos and the time it takes mother nature to fill the holes with water.
But having said that - at the same time - Iowa has to hope Yamato is not shooting or not shooting very much. Because an 18 inch shell is going to knock things out even if it doesn't kill them. So while a Yamato shell could not pierce Iowa's turret, the kinetic energy of the hit would/could knock the turret off it's rails, making it useless. Me Japanese? I'm hoping to die anyway, so I'm not gonna heed the high temp alarm and I'm gonna keep pumping rounds at/into Iowa. Me American? I'd probably assume Yamato's invincibility and I'd be looking for the soft kill opportunities. I can out fire Yamato all day so more than likely I'd be putting salvo after salvo in the air.
Worse case scenario? A bloody draw with both ships incapable of further combat. Best Japanese case? Knock all three Iowa turrets off of their rails. Then ram her. Best American case? Hole the waterline where the boat deck/flight deck is. Jam Yamato's turrets with gun fire.
Air - we won't opine on defensive capabilities but Japanese AAA and AA fire control are too slow (hand operated) and not linked. A Japanese AAA fire control radar cannot control a set amount of guns. This means that target coordinates have to be manually fed into weapons. Additionally, the Japanese have a variety of calibers which singles each other out when the 23mm magazine gets flooded and only 13mm ammo is available. Even the Japanese 5 inch guns are of two different types making things interesting. Also, the USN is using proximity fuses on AAA shells which makes killing planes a breeze. Yamato has a Claymore type shell for her 18 inch guns, but all topside crew have to be below decks before they can be fired. Not too ergonomic.
Compartmentation. Iowa and all American ships are built with damage control in mind and watertight integrity and fire fighting are built in. Iowa carries more fire hoses and anti-flooding gear than needed. As a result, any damage is easily mitigated. To Japan's credit, she understands her main naval foe is submarines and torpedo blisters are added. And they work as planned. But all bets are off when you're hit by 18+ torpedoes...
Speed and handling. Both ships are incredibly fast and highly maneuverable. At Leyte Gulf, Yamato out-turns her escorting destroyers and cruisers and attacking American destroyers. Iowa, likewise is capable of "turning and burning" at high speed. So its an even match there.
Armor. Both ships are proof against the other. Missouri takes a Kamikaze on the side and it doesn't even dent the ship. This has the equivalent explosive force of an 18 inch gun. USN post-war tests were unable to penetrate Yamato armor plates using a 16 inch gun. So for the moment we have a draw. Iowa would have difficulty (even at close range) penetrating Yamato and Yamato likewise, would fare no better.
Guns. The British were the first to have a naval 18 inch gun and loved it so much they never built another one. Actually a handful were approved and put to sea, but performance was so piss poor that it wasn't worth the effort and they were quietly (and quickly) retired. The British found that the high temperatures were pretty dangerous and that it was difficult/unlikely/impossible to fire more than a few salvos before the barrel became too dangerous. Both Iowa and Yamato fired their guns in anger and the Yamato results were as the British said. Fewer shots. Yamato fired at Leyte Gulf and temp alarms kept her fire at a modest level. Alternatively, Iowa and her three sisters, could rake a Japanese beach with shell fire. And did on many occasions.
THE FINAL RESULT
Like Bismarck, Yamato would never surrender and UNLIKE the Bismarck, death was actually something the average Japanese sailor looked forward to. So a quickee battle where both sides lob a few shells and then retire is not going to happen. As Yamato cannot pierce Iowa's turrets/hull/conn and as Iowa cannot do to the same to Yamato, both sides are going to have to go for a tactical kill. This means knocking out radar, jamming turrets, etc. Iowa's higher rate of fire will be a + in her favor. Additionally, Iowa having multiple fire control radars will be a + as well. If Iowa guessed/knew this, Yamato's one weak spot is her boat deck/flight deck. If Iowa can hole that, its all over with six salvos and the time it takes mother nature to fill the holes with water.
But having said that - at the same time - Iowa has to hope Yamato is not shooting or not shooting very much. Because an 18 inch shell is going to knock things out even if it doesn't kill them. So while a Yamato shell could not pierce Iowa's turret, the kinetic energy of the hit would/could knock the turret off it's rails, making it useless. Me Japanese? I'm hoping to die anyway, so I'm not gonna heed the high temp alarm and I'm gonna keep pumping rounds at/into Iowa. Me American? I'd probably assume Yamato's invincibility and I'd be looking for the soft kill opportunities. I can out fire Yamato all day so more than likely I'd be putting salvo after salvo in the air.
Worse case scenario? A bloody draw with both ships incapable of further combat. Best Japanese case? Knock all three Iowa turrets off of their rails. Then ram her. Best American case? Hole the waterline where the boat deck/flight deck is. Jam Yamato's turrets with gun fire.
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The Iowa would win hands down. The Iowa's fire control radar would allow her to accurately range and acquire the Yamato in any condition (day, night, fog, rain, or smoke) long before the Yamato could locate the Iowa.
This was demonstrated by the USS West Virginia in the Gulf of Leyte, when this recently upgraded WWI era battleships beat the hell out of the Japanese at night. He first salvo scored a direct hit at over 20,000 m. The author of the article glosses over the radar fire control, but the Iowa would clear the superstructure of the Yamato long before she could ever see what was hitting her.
This was demonstrated by the USS West Virginia in the Gulf of Leyte, when this recently upgraded WWI era battleships beat the hell out of the Japanese at night. He first salvo scored a direct hit at over 20,000 m. The author of the article glosses over the radar fire control, but the Iowa would clear the superstructure of the Yamato long before she could ever see what was hitting her.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
Some good points but Surigao Strait was just that - a strait. A closed field. One way in and only one way out. PT boats, destroyers and subs shoo'd two Japanese battleships into a channel, damaging them on the way. In fact, PT boats have been pushing for a lot of years to actually be given credit for one of the Japanese ship's deaths. So the Japanese were hardly in a combat ready, fresh, condition when they reached the American battle line. The copy of the day was "battleships sunk at Pearl Harbor sink Japanese battleships that carried out the Dec 7th attack." And to be fair to the Fox/CNN's of the day, that headline was not going to go away. Whether the USN BB's scored any hits or not would be irrelevant.
Firing into a channel is easy and is made extra easy by the fact that your target's "T" has already been crossed. All each of the six American BB's needed to do was be assigned a chunk of the strait and every shell would be a winner. And it was. Iowa meeting Yamato in clear skies (Surigao took place at night) in open ocean, both ships would be maneuvering, dodging shells, etc. While Iowa's radar can indeed pick up Yamato outside of Yamato's range, the radar can't tell Iowa whether her shells hit or not. So at some point in time, Iowa's gonna have to get close to take a peek. Once that happens, the game changes and its a question of who gets luckiest.
Firing into a channel is easy and is made extra easy by the fact that your target's "T" has already been crossed. All each of the six American BB's needed to do was be assigned a chunk of the strait and every shell would be a winner. And it was. Iowa meeting Yamato in clear skies (Surigao took place at night) in open ocean, both ships would be maneuvering, dodging shells, etc. While Iowa's radar can indeed pick up Yamato outside of Yamato's range, the radar can't tell Iowa whether her shells hit or not. So at some point in time, Iowa's gonna have to get close to take a peek. Once that happens, the game changes and its a question of who gets luckiest.
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The Yamato was bigger, better armored, and her guns were bigger. With no other factors, the Iowa's would have been in trouble.
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PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM
The Japanese 18" gun had a higher Velocity but that is where the advantage ended. The US Navy choose the 16" projectile because of the slower speeds allowed it to be a heavier projectile, ensuring a greater penetrating capability. Even though the Yamato had greater Armor above the water line the 16" could still penetrate it in some areas but its BIG Achilles Heal was the poor seams between the upper and lower armor belts. which allowed water to enter when she was torpedoed by U.S. aircraft off Okinawa. Remember it was a Single Shell from the British Prince of Wales that landed short and penetrated the Bismarck below her more lightly armored waterline. This crippled her and allowed the British fleet and the Ark Royal's Ferry Swordfish Torpedo Planes to catch her and send her to the bottom.
BUT the biggest disadvantage that the Yamato had was she had no RADAR, she did have her 7 Nakajima E8N or Nakajima E4N float planes but that is all she had to see over the horizon. The IOWA had Kingfishers and Radar as well.
BUT the biggest disadvantage that the Yamato had was she had no RADAR, she did have her 7 Nakajima E8N or Nakajima E4N float planes but that is all she had to see over the horizon. The IOWA had Kingfishers and Radar as well.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM - Some great points. But remember that we're talking a 1945 battle. A theoretical match up in April - May of 1945. To further complete our fantasy, we'd have Iowa and Yamato approach each other un damaged and in broad daylight, clear skies. Iowa would not have known about Yamato's watertight integrity issues until after the war. Further, as Iowa doesn't have a torpedo battery, the integrity wouldn't be an issue.
Some other things to keep in mind are that Iowa is a combat newbie. Her only action has been anti air and shore bombardment. Yamato on the other hand has sunk two ships - USS Gambier Bay and USS Johnson. And she did it with under three salvoes (28 rounds). So her accuracy is 10 for 10. Additionally, while shooting, she herself was under attack by both aircraft and ships. The ship combat included gun fire as well as torpedo. Now while its true that the Americans were soft-targets, keep in mind that Japanese intel felt that they were fleet carriers and cruisers. And as Japan did not use the "fleet/escort" mission casting for it's carriers, an "escort carrier" would not have meant anything to their ears if they heard that word. The only carriers the Japanese knew were fleet carriers. The Iowa Class on the other hand, have had no combat other than shooting down planes and shore bombardment as part of a team.
Not knowing about Yamato's integrity issues, Iowa would more than likely split her fire with one turret going for the command area, one for the waterline and one for the turrets. Also keep in mind that radar can direct guns but radar can't spot fire. So Iowa has to see if her hits were critical. So whether Iowa likes it or not, she's gonna have to close the distance. Or use aircraft.
At that point, the dynamic changes exponentially. Would the Kingfisher/Osprey crews be more than a match for the Japanese pilots? That would an interesting item as well.
Some other things to keep in mind are that Iowa is a combat newbie. Her only action has been anti air and shore bombardment. Yamato on the other hand has sunk two ships - USS Gambier Bay and USS Johnson. And she did it with under three salvoes (28 rounds). So her accuracy is 10 for 10. Additionally, while shooting, she herself was under attack by both aircraft and ships. The ship combat included gun fire as well as torpedo. Now while its true that the Americans were soft-targets, keep in mind that Japanese intel felt that they were fleet carriers and cruisers. And as Japan did not use the "fleet/escort" mission casting for it's carriers, an "escort carrier" would not have meant anything to their ears if they heard that word. The only carriers the Japanese knew were fleet carriers. The Iowa Class on the other hand, have had no combat other than shooting down planes and shore bombardment as part of a team.
Not knowing about Yamato's integrity issues, Iowa would more than likely split her fire with one turret going for the command area, one for the waterline and one for the turrets. Also keep in mind that radar can direct guns but radar can't spot fire. So Iowa has to see if her hits were critical. So whether Iowa likes it or not, she's gonna have to close the distance. Or use aircraft.
At that point, the dynamic changes exponentially. Would the Kingfisher/Osprey crews be more than a match for the Japanese pilots? That would an interesting item as well.
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PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM
PO3 Donald Murphy - Don, Point well taken BUT you have to remember, The IOWA may have been new but the Gunners Mates were Not. When they manned her they brought in the best from the fleet and made them her Senior Enlisted's and her Officers were also Seasoned from the Fleet with action experience. This was a common practice for a new ship, the lower ranks were filled with new recruits and newbies out of schools that learned from the Seniors from the fleet. I still would put my money on the IOWA with Old salts that had cut their teeth on action in the early days of the war, and trust God's blessings. The big problem in this whole scenario is that there was very little ship to ship fighting during the war where the US Navy's capital ships were involved. You had a lot of incidents where the Mosquito Fleet (PT Boats) went after the Big Boys,, and the Silent Service (Submarines) did their damage. but most everything in WWII was Carrier battles. The Sinking of the Yamato on April 7 of 1945, The Yamato was pounded by least five 1,000 lb bombs and ten torpedoes. by the aircraft of Task Force 58. They also sent a Light Cruiser and four Destroyers to the bottom as well and damaged four other Destroyers. Now that's good shooting Tex! Vice Admiral Richmond Turner and his boys earned their pay that day. The battleships Colorado and Maryland who were involved in the battle of Okinawa, where the Yamato was headed, never even saw the smoke from her sinking.
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PO3 Donald Murphy
PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM - Correct, but I was staying within the constraints of a one-on-one fantasy football battle. You and I both know that the USN carrier mafia was not going to let anything but carrier birds sink the Yamato.
Also, while gunners mates may have been "experienced", their only experience was still shore bombardment. The last ship - ship battle was in 1943 and that was a cruiser duel. Whereas Yamato's crew was fresh from sinking ships at Leyte Gulf in November 1944.
Also, while gunners mates may have been "experienced", their only experience was still shore bombardment. The last ship - ship battle was in 1943 and that was a cruiser duel. Whereas Yamato's crew was fresh from sinking ships at Leyte Gulf in November 1944.
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