Infantryman
Infantryman
Posted on Aug 11, 2017
Should Soldiers be punished for failing the EIB PT test on purpose?
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Expert Infantryman Badge (EIB)
11B: Infantryman
APFT
UCMJ
Punishment
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 58
I think so, if it's a blatant and obvious attempt to fail. The big issue is deciding what type of punishment is legal and appropriate.
When I was a young Lieutenant, I had something similar happen with a handful of my soldiers. They purposely failed out of the EFMB on their very first task so that they could come back home from the testing site. I made them stay out in the field until the end of the week anyways, making them support their colleagues who did actually try to pass everything. Apparently, the testing site saw it as a problem on a larger scale. The following year (and every year after), they didn't tell anyone how they did until the very last day, right before the final road march. Their goal was to make people at least try, considering that they had to stay out there regardless of how they did.
When I was a young Lieutenant, I had something similar happen with a handful of my soldiers. They purposely failed out of the EFMB on their very first task so that they could come back home from the testing site. I made them stay out in the field until the end of the week anyways, making them support their colleagues who did actually try to pass everything. Apparently, the testing site saw it as a problem on a larger scale. The following year (and every year after), they didn't tell anyone how they did until the very last day, right before the final road march. Their goal was to make people at least try, considering that they had to stay out there regardless of how they did.
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MSG (Join to see)
All these "you shouldn't be forced" comments are part of the problem. You shouldn't feel "forced" to be a master of your profession. Furthermore, if you are a leader and think this way shame on you.
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SFC J Fullerton
SPC (Join to see) - Its MOS training. Most of it is soldier common tasks. Since when is training optional in the US Military? If you think training is bullshit, then you have no place in the US Military. Earning the badge is the reward for mastering the skill set. If you signed up for an 11 series MOS, your ass is going to do Infantry training. If you are a combat medic, then your ass does combat medic training. That's what you joined for. In my 26 years, those that had a piss poor attitude toward the EIB were piss poor Soldiers in every other aspect too.
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CPT (Join to see)
It is common for all assigned to participate in the EIB APFT (in fact I can not remember a EIB APFT that was not done as so), if for no other reason its an efficient use of resources to conduct a AR350-1 requirement. As such, failure wither on purpose or of no intention takes care of itself.
Fail an APFT, get flagged, suspend favorable actions from awards to schooling to promotions, placed in special populations PT program, initiate separation of service chapter, counsel and inform of the time line and training program the SM will have to improve and pass the APFT. If the failure was perceived to be unintentional provide maximum assistance in helping the SM achieve their stated goal. If understood to be a intentional failure, provide the assistance and leadership required and or requested, but inform the SM their passing or failing and prep for either is a test in of itself...
I would then direct the LONGEST time allowed under the reg before allowing a retest.. If they pass, fine, perhaps a lesson is learned..if they fail again, so be it, good by.
EDIT ADD: Oh, and that above is not theory ...its a memory.
It is common for all assigned to participate in the EIB APFT (in fact I can not remember a EIB APFT that was not done as so), if for no other reason its an efficient use of resources to conduct a AR350-1 requirement. As such, failure wither on purpose or of no intention takes care of itself.
Fail an APFT, get flagged, suspend favorable actions from awards to schooling to promotions, placed in special populations PT program, initiate separation of service chapter, counsel and inform of the time line and training program the SM will have to improve and pass the APFT. If the failure was perceived to be unintentional provide maximum assistance in helping the SM achieve their stated goal. If understood to be a intentional failure, provide the assistance and leadership required and or requested, but inform the SM their passing or failing and prep for either is a test in of itself...
I would then direct the LONGEST time allowed under the reg before allowing a retest.. If they pass, fine, perhaps a lesson is learned..if they fail again, so be it, good by.
EDIT ADD: Oh, and that above is not theory ...its a memory.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SSG (Join to see) - "SSG Darrell Peters 5 m
If a soldier does not Volunteer for the EIB. he cannot be forced to participate."
No, not even close.
If the training is on the schedule, the SM will be at the appointed place at the appointed time.
Competing for the award of the EIB is voluntary Not the training for it. But Every bit of the prep, the train up and even the testing phase is or can be considered training.....Though i would use non volunteers as support personal after the train up is done, no need to waste resources on them during the testing phase... Someone needs to cut grass, do police call and be on CQ..its not going to be SM competing for the EIB..
Having all unit members TRAIN at the EIB core tasks and prerequisites is just common sense, a good use of resources and a solid commanders decision.
The SM WILL participate in all scheduled training, if they CHOOSE to go though that training and not participate in the testing, thats their choice. But they will be at training, to include the scheduled APFT, or be tasked to support it
If a soldier does not Volunteer for the EIB. he cannot be forced to participate."
No, not even close.
If the training is on the schedule, the SM will be at the appointed place at the appointed time.
Competing for the award of the EIB is voluntary Not the training for it. But Every bit of the prep, the train up and even the testing phase is or can be considered training.....Though i would use non volunteers as support personal after the train up is done, no need to waste resources on them during the testing phase... Someone needs to cut grass, do police call and be on CQ..its not going to be SM competing for the EIB..
Having all unit members TRAIN at the EIB core tasks and prerequisites is just common sense, a good use of resources and a solid commanders decision.
The SM WILL participate in all scheduled training, if they CHOOSE to go though that training and not participate in the testing, thats their choice. But they will be at training, to include the scheduled APFT, or be tasked to support it
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SSG (Join to see)
Yet Competing for the award is not Training. Training for the EIB should take place well in advance of the date of the EIB Test and Evaluation. If the Training Schedule states EIB and it is for the Award of a Badge It is not Training. I sat in on a Court Martial that occurred in 1984 2nd Armor Division FWD for a soldier who deliberately Failed Every Test for the EFMB. The Presiding Judge Ruled that the EFMB is NOT a Training Event but an Evaluation of prior Training. To quote the Judge. "The Command under the guise of mandatory training, purposefully forced participation. We find that is in Violation of the Army Regulation that Govern Participation for the EFMB."
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SGM Erik Marquez
SSG (Join to see) Your still confusing training and testing .. EIB and EFMB training typically goes from many weeks in advance to the day prior to testing. Commonly the train up period will end on a friday, testing begins on the following monday and runs though the duty week.
TESTING is voluntarily, training for that test is not (or may not be, depending on if the command wants to properly use resources or reward mediocrity )
"soldier who deliberately Failed Every Test for the EFMB. "
That has nothing to do with what we are discussing...... in your own words, " soldier who deliberately Failed Every Test for the EFMB. "
The APFT is not done as a TEST, it is a prerequisite to be eligible for the test.
There is ZERO difference in application of the APFT for annual record APFT or EIB prequisist.
NOW, in 1984, the APFT WAS part of the EIB test not a prereq... so in 1984 you may have had a point..but this is not 1984, and we are not discussing TESTING.
TESTING is voluntarily, training for that test is not (or may not be, depending on if the command wants to properly use resources or reward mediocrity )
"soldier who deliberately Failed Every Test for the EFMB. "
That has nothing to do with what we are discussing...... in your own words, " soldier who deliberately Failed Every Test for the EFMB. "
The APFT is not done as a TEST, it is a prerequisite to be eligible for the test.
There is ZERO difference in application of the APFT for annual record APFT or EIB prequisist.
NOW, in 1984, the APFT WAS part of the EIB test not a prereq... so in 1984 you may have had a point..but this is not 1984, and we are not discussing TESTING.
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SSG Ken Schiffner
My initial feeling on this thread was shock that 11B's would not make every effort to get the EIB. But then i went in the way back machine and remembered there were a lot of soldiers in the infantry that didn't belong. Testing started shortly after I arrived in Baumholder from AIT. Another guy I went to OSUT with and I (both E-1's) earned our EIB that first time. My E-6 squad leader enlisted me to help him prepare the following year, and us 2 privates were evaluators. Getting that badge was a highlight of my career.
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I'm not sure what level of punishment should be utilized but I think it would be warranted anytime a soldier fails a task on purpose. Whether it be a PT test or land nav. We're looking for 100% effort all the time. That doesn't mean you pass 100% of the time. It means you try to pass 100% of the time. It's the same thing I tell my kids. If the best grade you can get in math is a D then that's fine. But if you make a D because you didn't try, and you could've made a B, we have a problem.
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SGM Erik Marquez
MAJ (Join to see) "I'm not sure what level of punishment should be utilized "
It is a self correcting event as long as the CDR was using the event as a record APFT so as to not waste training resources and accomplish multiple tasks in one event
Record AFT required by AR350-1 and EIB prequal
So "punishment " just what the SM earned by failing the record APFT.
That said,,,EIB is a resource intensive event....someone needs to guard the site at night...would that be those that are still in competition for the badge? Or those not competing?
While SM are on the EIB site training up or testing, Tasking continue from higher and unit internal. That 10 man tasking BDE called for to cut the HQ grass and pick weeds this weekend...Now lets see should I pull SPC Everett from EIB training for that or should I assign SPC Marquez who failed the EIB APFT by doing 3 PU and getting up? Hmmmm, let me think.....
It is a self correcting event as long as the CDR was using the event as a record APFT so as to not waste training resources and accomplish multiple tasks in one event
Record AFT required by AR350-1 and EIB prequal
So "punishment " just what the SM earned by failing the record APFT.
That said,,,EIB is a resource intensive event....someone needs to guard the site at night...would that be those that are still in competition for the badge? Or those not competing?
While SM are on the EIB site training up or testing, Tasking continue from higher and unit internal. That 10 man tasking BDE called for to cut the HQ grass and pick weeds this weekend...Now lets see should I pull SPC Everett from EIB training for that or should I assign SPC Marquez who failed the EIB APFT by doing 3 PU and getting up? Hmmmm, let me think.....
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SGM Erik Marquez
MAJ (Join to see) - I was only a SPC 10 months, but I can still be "creative" like one when needed.
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SSG (Join to see)
I can just see this happening. soldier Stands before the C.O. for an Article 15 for failure of a PT test. Soldier is not required to submit to Article 15 Action. Request a Court Martial. Referred to JAG. How far do you think it will go? The Soldiers Defense Attorney will have this thing dropped like a hot potato.
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