Posted on Jul 23, 2020
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I'm deployed and saw this CPL with a ponytail down to the middle of her back. When I approached the Warrant Officer in charge of group he said it's because she's about to fly. I can't find anything in AR 670-1 that states their grooming standards are relaxed. Am I wrong for correcting the Soldier? PFC (Join to see) SFC (Join to see) SFC James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" LTC Stephen F. CPL Dave Hoover SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth SGT (Join to see) Capt Dwayne Conyers CPT Jack Durish SFC (Join to see) SGT (Join to see)
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Responses: 39
LCDR Joshua Gillespie
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I am not familiar with the current Army regulations... but I do know that just about anytime we had a female helo pilot on deck in the Navy...you'd see the ponytail hanging down under the helmet (funny story about me asking one out over the radio once... but I'll save that for another time). My guess, having been in aviation for a little while and worn a helmet... is that it's probably a less than ideal fit with the hair "up". That might be "official policy", or not... but as with most things, it's probably best to let their chain of command worry about it.
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LCDR Joshua Gillespie
LCDR Joshua Gillespie
6 mo
CPT (Join to see) - The "short version"? Turned out she was already dating a SEAL in VA Beach.
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CSM John Mead
CSM John Mead
6 mo
Sir, I'd say BS to that. Standards are just that. If the female pilot can't get her little ponytail under her helmet, then cut the shit off. What's she going to do in the case if she has to don a protective mask? It's the same reason that males aren't allow to grow beards.
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LCDR Joshua Gillespie
LCDR Joshua Gillespie
6 mo
CSM John Mead - Not my place to question your position; AR-670-3(c) also supports your comments. Merely answering a question based on my experiences in aviation. My personal feelings? It's not something I, as an officer would normally get involved in. If my SNCOs had an issue with it... they'd correct it. If they didn't... I probably wouldn't fall on that particular sword without understanding why they were tolerant of it first. Thank you for keeping us straight.
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CSM John Mead
CSM John Mead
6 mo
LCDR Joshua Gillespie - no problem sir. My issue is that an NCO approached a warrant officer to inquire about an obvious discrepancy and received a subpar and totally off base response. Perhaps if he had been a senior NCO, the result would have been different. I would have fired his backside up. I'm not sure how aviators act, but as long as they wear a uniform, they'll conform to regulations.
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CSM Command Sergeant Major
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If she is in a flight uniform, about to fly... I dont see the issue. There is no proximity from aircraft nor time till flight requirement. If the senior leader in the crew aallows it... I would support their decision and rock on. Side note... pony tails should be allowed, its about time to change the standard. Every other country I am currently deployed with wears them, and I allow them in my Role III.
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CSM John Mead
CSM John Mead
6 mo
CSM (Join to see) Mike, youre just egging me on, aren't you? Just trying to push the envelope to see what it'll take to set me off. Well, I'll tell you this. I won't knuckle under or listen to bullshit how commanders allow this, or allow that. It all falls back on the senior enlisted advisor. That's right, you, the CSM. Evidently too many have gotten wrapped up in the Christmas tree uniform crap. Full colored unit patches, tabs here and there, like participation trophies for five year olds. It's disgusting that in the last 15-20 years that the only thing that the SMA's have accomplished eere to switch from Class A greens to the blue ASU, to a pinks and green service uniform, redo the APFT a few times, fiddle with the NCO-ER, and whatever other useless bullshit comes to town. When I had to brief to the ADC about the different typed of tattoos my troops had during a training brief, I knew that it was time to go. For you to try to justify to me utter nonsense and just shrug it off with it doesn't matter, the old man signed off on it, is utterly appalling. Screw it, you did get me wound up and I don't let that happen often. Anyway, do your time and pursue other pursuits while you can. At least Agent Orange isn't going to wait 50 years to catch up with your ass. Drive on and do great things. Out here.
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CSM Command Sergeant Major
CSM (Join to see)
6 mo
No agent orange here just gunshot wounds and shrapnel. I am not trying to egg you on, we just dissagree and I am using references and examples. You have no idea the challenges we face during this almost two decades at war, fixing the close minded “garrison” Army that was built by people who had no idea how to fight an endouring war. If everything was great, we would have left it alone. The modern military is more agile and elite than it has ever been because we have leaders that can make common sense decisions and apply critical thinking to outsmart our advisaries. At the end of the day you fail to realize that a commander has command of his/her eliment and has earned command authority over said organization and members regardless of what you think. If the Army wanted a CSM to have command authority they would have granted it. You keep saying thinks like presence and experience as if I have no clue what you are talking about. None of that matters if a commander gives you as a CSM a lawful order to about face and move out. You just dont have that authority regardless of how powerful you think you are. I lead my folks through inspiration not fear. CSM John Mead
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CSM John Mead
CSM John Mead
6 mo
CSM (Join to see) leadership through a fear based philosophy is the worst form of guidance ever visited on a unit. My father was a career CSM himself with a terminal assignment in Vietnam from 70 to 71. He even influenced the replacement company to assign me to his division when I got there. I was able to convince the SFC in charge of assignments ro change that for me. I could only imagine the crap I'd have faced otherwise. I can sympathize with you if you have a commander who won't listen to advice and tells you to bugger off. I had one like that and our time together was short lived. I repeatedly tried to teach/coach him, but to no avail. He eventually screwed himself. In the course of maintaining continuity in the unit, my only concern were the troops. It was like watching your parents fight. In the end, when I received no assistance from higher, I let the SOB hang himself. Right, not professional, but without higher's help, I couldn't do squat. He was extremely toxic and everyone feared him. I already had 25, so what could he do? All in all, I hear a lot about current commanders who are like that. My assessment of.any crop of senior commander is not as positive as yours. I keep seeing repetitive errors being made, as if no historical data is kept for future leaders. Oh well, my time is long past. You are no doubt correct that our soldiers are the best, otherwise why do they keep enlisting/reenlisting? It's funny how you and I started as antagonists and now we share insights. Perhaps you are correct in your view of how things should be, and I'm no doubt of another era and way of doing things. Whatever gets things done, I imagine. Good talking with you.
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CSM Command Sergeant Major
CSM (Join to see)
6 mo
Emotion is lost in text, I respect you greatly and would love to pick your brain. I know I am a bit different, but I have different perspectives from my experiences. CSM John Mead
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SGT Robert Johnson
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WO in charge? I wouldn't have even approached the subject. Not your lane.
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CSM John Mead
CSM John Mead
6 mo
SFC (Join to see) - Footprints? What if she were smoking next to a fuel tanker? You going to bypass that one too? The soldier posting the initial blog was right in approaching the senior member of the group she was with. It was the warrant's obligation to correct the infraction, not dress down the sergeant with a bullshit answer. The problem with a lot of NCO's is that they don't want to rock the boat, make waves, or cause a corporal to cry. Grow a set. And for you, SGT Johnson, you are overwhelmingly wrong. Never, ever, walk away from a deficiency. I'm surprised that there wasn't an NCO in the group that could have made that correction. If there was, apparently he didn't have any balls either.
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CSM John Mead
CSM John Mead
6 mo
1SG Walter Craig yes, like you, I am retired. What really gets me is the attitude of many of you. What ever happened to stepping up and correcting a deficiency? Do you walk away? It would seem yes. Here is an obviously young female soldier, no headgear, and a ponytail reaching to her waist. You aviation types say it's because her hair won't fit under her flight helmet. Well, excuse me, the others have headgear on and they're nowhere near an aircraft! Perhaps I'm antiquated, but unlike you, at least the sergeant that posted this blog, and myself, have the fortitude to say anything. The rest of you are just pathetic. I don't need a response, as it would be just more of your dribble.
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Sgt Leo Herod
Sgt Leo Herod
6 mo
CSM John Mead - She wasn't smoking next to a fuel tanker. And I think she is smart enough not to. Why do you think it is ok to make up fictitious stories, especially ones that involve an open flame near gasoline. Not the same issue. What you are doing is another form of SEXUAL HARRASMENT. WOmen have been experiencing for all too long in the military and out. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS and let the commanders worry about it...Anomolies are not the DEVIL...
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CSM John Mead
CSM John Mead
6 mo
Sgt Leo Herod sergeant, excuse me if I offend your sensitivities, but the statement about smoking next to a fuel tanker was a metaphor. Of course she wasn't. Can't you understand what you read? The issue at hand, if you haven't been following, or again can't understand what you've read. No one is hassling the corporal, a sergeant approached her OIC and pointed out that she neither had on headgear, and her hair was out of regulation. The soldier's OIC shut him down with an assinine response and everyone else, including you, has this woe is the female aviator attitude. Obviously, you have no idea of what sexual harassment is because what I've done is avoid the gender issue, and instead dwell on the standards issue which is gender free, unless it is gender specific. If you don't get it, Rallypoint is a forum for addressing issues, seeking guidance, or simply voicing disgruntlement. I used my experience and service gained knowledge to help a soldier. All you've done is garble the facts, try to establish yourself as a champion of women's rights and otherwise make a fool of yourself. If you want to help, first know the facts, read the posts from the beginning, and don't attack people. That is yhe cowards approach. If you're adamant about a point, state it and stand by it.
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