Posted on Oct 4, 2018
Can you conduct IWQ with CCO prior to zeroing iron sights on a new weapon?
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Brand new weapons systems (M4). Granted you do a good PME with beam hit, can you IWQ with M68/CCO without actually zeroing the weapons iron sights? Are there any regs/ training guidance on this?
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11B: Infantryman
11B: Infantryman
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 8
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You only use the iron sights to give a battle sight zero for the CCO. You can find all the information in the small weapons handbook which should still be on AKO somewhere.
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I'm gonna blast your question with a ton of information so hopefully afterwards you will understand the "why" instead of just having to rely on a few opinions. There is a little bit of misinformation that I've seen on here. I'm a sniper and marksmanship master trainer. I have competed regionally, nationally, and internationally as a competitive shooter for the All Guard International Combat Team and as an action shooter (multigun, USPSA).
Back in the day, shooters would "lollipop" the red dot on the front sight post to achieve consistent sight alignment. Due to parallax, if you did not achieve a consistent sight alignment with each shot, the point of impact (POI) would differ from your point of aim (POA). While you may not notice much of a shift at 25m, especially with your average shooter, it could cause wide misses at 300m. Even when this was still the standard it was not necessary to zero the iron sights unless you were going to cowitness the dot while looking through the iron sights. It is still necessary to shoot rounds to confirm even if you get an initial zero on your CCO by cowitnessing. Because the M68 CCO is now considered "parallax-free" you do not have to have a consistent sight alignment with the front sight post or even the center of the visual field. Essentially, if you break a clean shot the round will impact at the dot... whether the dot was all the way left, or centered, or barely visible in the top right corner of your lens.
For zeroing the CCO, I recommend an initial zero at 50m on paper and then further refinement on paper targets at 200m (if you only have access to a 50m range then you can get away with just zeroing here). Due to the ballistic arc (trajectory) of the round, you will have less deviation when aiming center mass across the course of an automated record fire range (25-300m). If you insist on a 25/300m zero, you will see many shooters have misses at mid distances (150-200m) because the POI is approximately 7-10 inches higher than POA at those distances.
If you only have a 25m range to zero, aim center mass on the new A8? targets and zero your weapon so your impact is 2 boxes (0.5 inches) low. This will get you close to a 50/200m zero with the M855A1 ammo. It is a better battlesight zero - a zero that you an engage all targets with a center mass POA and achieve consistent hits.
Feel free to message me if you, or anyone else, has any further questions.
Back in the day, shooters would "lollipop" the red dot on the front sight post to achieve consistent sight alignment. Due to parallax, if you did not achieve a consistent sight alignment with each shot, the point of impact (POI) would differ from your point of aim (POA). While you may not notice much of a shift at 25m, especially with your average shooter, it could cause wide misses at 300m. Even when this was still the standard it was not necessary to zero the iron sights unless you were going to cowitness the dot while looking through the iron sights. It is still necessary to shoot rounds to confirm even if you get an initial zero on your CCO by cowitnessing. Because the M68 CCO is now considered "parallax-free" you do not have to have a consistent sight alignment with the front sight post or even the center of the visual field. Essentially, if you break a clean shot the round will impact at the dot... whether the dot was all the way left, or centered, or barely visible in the top right corner of your lens.
For zeroing the CCO, I recommend an initial zero at 50m on paper and then further refinement on paper targets at 200m (if you only have access to a 50m range then you can get away with just zeroing here). Due to the ballistic arc (trajectory) of the round, you will have less deviation when aiming center mass across the course of an automated record fire range (25-300m). If you insist on a 25/300m zero, you will see many shooters have misses at mid distances (150-200m) because the POI is approximately 7-10 inches higher than POA at those distances.
If you only have a 25m range to zero, aim center mass on the new A8? targets and zero your weapon so your impact is 2 boxes (0.5 inches) low. This will get you close to a 50/200m zero with the M855A1 ammo. It is a better battlesight zero - a zero that you an engage all targets with a center mass POA and achieve consistent hits.
Feel free to message me if you, or anyone else, has any further questions.
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SSG, as far as the guidance I've received goes CCO zeros to the optic itself not the weapon. Iron sights zero to the person so it changes everytime. Once a CCO is zeroed it can be fired by anyone. Hope this helps.
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1SG (Join to see)
Iron sights do not zero to the person. This myth has survived decades, and appears to continue.
Imagine placing the rifle in a vise (not the barrel, of course), looking through iron sights, and firing it. For the sake of argument we will say fire 3 rounds, and determine, then make the appropriate adjustments.
Fire it again, keeping in mind that the weapon has not moved, so the rounds will strike in the same location regardless of any changes you made. This is because you are actually adjusting the sights to the rifle's barrel, not the shooter. If the sights are not aligned with the second shot group, it is because you are not using the same sight picture.
I'd you take the rifle out of the vise and use the same point of aim, same sight picture, and use all the fundamentals of marksmanship, the next group of shots should strike at the same location as those fired from the vise. If not, it is the shooter, as those sights are zeroes to the barrel.
Everyone in the unit should be able to qualify expert with that rifle IF they use all of the fundamentals of marksmanship.
I demonstrated this on several occasions as a DS and PSG using random rifles whenever someone made this claim. My only requirement was the random weapon had to be from a Soldier who qualified expert with the rifle.
This is because I knew the rifle was more likely than not properly zeroed.
The differences from Soldier to Soldier when zeroing the same rifle are more likely than not the result of point of aim and sight picture.
Imagine placing the rifle in a vise (not the barrel, of course), looking through iron sights, and firing it. For the sake of argument we will say fire 3 rounds, and determine, then make the appropriate adjustments.
Fire it again, keeping in mind that the weapon has not moved, so the rounds will strike in the same location regardless of any changes you made. This is because you are actually adjusting the sights to the rifle's barrel, not the shooter. If the sights are not aligned with the second shot group, it is because you are not using the same sight picture.
I'd you take the rifle out of the vise and use the same point of aim, same sight picture, and use all the fundamentals of marksmanship, the next group of shots should strike at the same location as those fired from the vise. If not, it is the shooter, as those sights are zeroes to the barrel.
Everyone in the unit should be able to qualify expert with that rifle IF they use all of the fundamentals of marksmanship.
I demonstrated this on several occasions as a DS and PSG using random rifles whenever someone made this claim. My only requirement was the random weapon had to be from a Soldier who qualified expert with the rifle.
This is because I knew the rifle was more likely than not properly zeroed.
The differences from Soldier to Soldier when zeroing the same rifle are more likely than not the result of point of aim and sight picture.
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CPT (Join to see)
1SG (Join to see) - In my opinion, you are both right and wrong. I've shot with several high level shooters and while I can pick up and qualify with their rifles given that they have a proper zero, I may not be getting consistent hits at distance. The reason there may be a POI shift lie in the method they use to achieve a consistent sight alignment and how they perceive center mass. However, like you mentioned, if they are zeroing with the tip of the front sight post in the center of the rear aperture and holding center mass of a 40in E type silhouette (how I zero) then I should be able to pick it up and be dead on. Astigmatisms can supposedly also cause issues, so it's something to consider for those shooters with coke-bottle classes on.
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SPC Chris Ison
Another big myth is that yo have to keep your cheek in the same place. It all about sight picture. These myths persist because they are taught in basic, and they make teaching marksmanship easier.
There is a lot that affects bullet drop, especially at range. the difference you might be getting could be a difference in temperature, or altitude, etc.
There is a lot that affects bullet drop, especially at range. the difference you might be getting could be a difference in temperature, or altitude, etc.
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SSG (Join to see)
SPC Chris Ison you said it yourself, the cheek doesn’t need to remain in the same spot as long as you have proper stock-weld. It’s taught to help people maintain a consistent sight picture.
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