Discipline
Discipline
Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Military bearing
Discipline
Supervisor
Leadership
What Would You Do
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3662
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It must be nipped in the bud quickly and without hesitation. Having had a few minutes to think about it, here goes....
PFC Shitbird and his team leader stand fast. All others fall out and carry on.
Have PFC Dipshit stand by while I ensure his team leader knows what my expectations are; "Instant obedience to lawful orders. Period. Any other answer is unacceptable. The fact that PFC Dipshit thinks it is okay to open his trap is a direct reflection of your leadership. Take a look at how you are leading and determine how this could happen."
To PFC Dipshit; "If you have decided to end your time in the military you have chosen a sure-fire method. If you do not comply with lawful orders, it will eventually end with you on a bus headed for home. But only after spending the next few weeks/months becoming the example of what not to do. If that is what you want, we will go there. If not, get your ass moving on what you were ordered to do."
PFC Shitbird and his team leader stand fast. All others fall out and carry on.
Have PFC Dipshit stand by while I ensure his team leader knows what my expectations are; "Instant obedience to lawful orders. Period. Any other answer is unacceptable. The fact that PFC Dipshit thinks it is okay to open his trap is a direct reflection of your leadership. Take a look at how you are leading and determine how this could happen."
To PFC Dipshit; "If you have decided to end your time in the military you have chosen a sure-fire method. If you do not comply with lawful orders, it will eventually end with you on a bus headed for home. But only after spending the next few weeks/months becoming the example of what not to do. If that is what you want, we will go there. If not, get your ass moving on what you were ordered to do."
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Sgt (Join to see)
You Nailed the response, GySgt Kenneth Pepper!!! That is the only good answer in my book!!! USAF VIETNAM ERA 1961-1965, but the penalty could be much stiffer... Letting this potty mouth go would have caused lots of problems down the road...
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SGT Russell Colburn
I agree with you Gunny. Not being privy to that Soldier's conduct during the few months before when he/she was there can't make an totally informed comment, but this conduct is way out of line and stops at that moment. If further action is necessary so be it. There is no excuse. In the field no one cares if you have a bad day. Yesterday was your only good day. The Unit is depending on you to preform. Want to be an individual? Go back to the Block
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Sgt Neil Foster
When I in Technical Training (still an E-1), I became a Student Leader and was put in charge of a bay full of fuckups in the barracks. My squadron was for Avionics technicians in training. They were typically there for 6 weeks, to 8 months depending on their AFSC.
I was told to have a "GI party", and ALL airmen in the bay were to be scrubbing the barracks down for the next 3 hours..
One airman (we'll call him AB Dipshit) who was ALWAYS in trouble decided that he didn't want to participate, so he started to leave. I told him that we have been ORDERED to clean the barracks, and failure to comply was a violation of a direct order.
AB Dipshit said "Fuck you, I want to go see a movie."
I responded "AB Dipshit, you are disobeying a direct order. You WILL participate, or you will be written up. You may even get kicked out."
AB Dipshit responded "FUCK OFF, I don't give a shit. Kick me out, I don't want to stay in the Air Force anyway."
When the rest of the men were done, I reported to the Student Training Advisor that we were ready for inspection, but AB Dipshit decided that he didn't want to participate, so he left.
The STA asked me what I told him, so I said exactly what I mentioned above.
The STA asked what my next action was. I told him that I gave AB Dipshit one more chance to cooperate and avoid being written up, and possibly be discharged. I also mentioned that AB Dipshit said "I don't want to stay in the Air Force anyway", then STA said "Oh, really. Let's see how he likes in when I grant his wish!"
The next day. AB Dipshit came to me and said "Foster, you fucking asshole. Because of you they pulled me out of school and I am being kicked out! of the Air Force."
I said "First of all, I didn't get you kicked out, YOU were the one who chose to disobey a direct order. I even gave you SEVERAL chances to change your mind. Besides, I thought that is what you wanted."
AB Dipshit replied, "I didn't want to get kicked out NOW, I wanted GRADUATE first, then get kicked out, and you fucked that up!"
AB Dipshit was in an avionics program that would take 8 months, and is a highly sought after skill in commercial aviation (current salary is $30 to $50 per hour)... so AB Dipshit figured that he would get himself kicked out after graduating. I beat him to the punch and saved the USAF a LOT of money (the training was estimated to cost $150,000 per student at the time
I was told to have a "GI party", and ALL airmen in the bay were to be scrubbing the barracks down for the next 3 hours..
One airman (we'll call him AB Dipshit) who was ALWAYS in trouble decided that he didn't want to participate, so he started to leave. I told him that we have been ORDERED to clean the barracks, and failure to comply was a violation of a direct order.
AB Dipshit said "Fuck you, I want to go see a movie."
I responded "AB Dipshit, you are disobeying a direct order. You WILL participate, or you will be written up. You may even get kicked out."
AB Dipshit responded "FUCK OFF, I don't give a shit. Kick me out, I don't want to stay in the Air Force anyway."
When the rest of the men were done, I reported to the Student Training Advisor that we were ready for inspection, but AB Dipshit decided that he didn't want to participate, so he left.
The STA asked me what I told him, so I said exactly what I mentioned above.
The STA asked what my next action was. I told him that I gave AB Dipshit one more chance to cooperate and avoid being written up, and possibly be discharged. I also mentioned that AB Dipshit said "I don't want to stay in the Air Force anyway", then STA said "Oh, really. Let's see how he likes in when I grant his wish!"
The next day. AB Dipshit came to me and said "Foster, you fucking asshole. Because of you they pulled me out of school and I am being kicked out! of the Air Force."
I said "First of all, I didn't get you kicked out, YOU were the one who chose to disobey a direct order. I even gave you SEVERAL chances to change your mind. Besides, I thought that is what you wanted."
AB Dipshit replied, "I didn't want to get kicked out NOW, I wanted GRADUATE first, then get kicked out, and you fucked that up!"
AB Dipshit was in an avionics program that would take 8 months, and is a highly sought after skill in commercial aviation (current salary is $30 to $50 per hour)... so AB Dipshit figured that he would get himself kicked out after graduating. I beat him to the punch and saved the USAF a LOT of money (the training was estimated to cost $150,000 per student at the time
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Praise in public, punish in private. "You stand fast after formation." Give him a chance to explain insubordination. Mandatory counseling. If he is defiant in private after getting the chance then burn him. ART15. Sometimes people are defiant because something happened and they feel out of control so they try to take it wherever they can no matter how inappropriate. Sometimes a wife cheated or a parent died. Sometimes the hospital calls and congratulates you on having cancer. To outright burn a Joe without gathering the facts is irresponsible and we would want someone breathing down our neck to take that extra moment to consider what might be going on too. If it's nothing more than attitude and a shitty personality then by all means light that dead Christmas tree and know you probably saved lives downrange.
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SFC Tracy Donahoo
No. He publicly showed disrespect. This wasn’t a mistake or error, he willfully disrespected an NCO with open subordination.
He gets publicly disciplined.
Otherwise I’d agree that you praise openly and correct privately. But not for this.
He gets publicly disciplined.
Otherwise I’d agree that you praise openly and correct privately. But not for this.
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MAJ Tom Harper
I agree. Have the private, squad leader and platoon sergeant stand fast after formation. Find out what is going on before making a harsh decision. The private may need an article 15 or he/she may need emergency leave. As a former unit commander I made some decisions about personnel that I later regretted before having all the facts
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LTC Stuart Knade
MAJ Tom Harper - Good wisdom Tom. There is almost aways some information you will later wish you had known before reacting. There is always another side to the story, 99% of which may be BS, but 1% you might have wanted to take into account before deciding how to deal with the situation.
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I can speak from experience on this one. On my first boat( yes I'm a submariner) as an E3 I was made Deck Div LPO, AKA Leading Seaman. While passing out the day's job assignments, I was told "f@#k no" by one of the new seaman. I was shocked to say the least. I went to the 1st LT, a TMCS, and informed him of my situation. He told me in no uncertain terms to take said individual to the back of the work barge and show him the error of his ways. I did so, physically. The young man never questioned me again.
Now, before everyone jumps on me, let me give you my opinion on this matter. This was the late '70s. We were still in the Viet Nam mind set. However; when did the military go from being a gung ho military organization to a job? "Ask him what's wrong". Really?! When you're at 400ft and there's a fire in the Torpedo Room, or you're someplace where people are shooting at you are you really going to take no as an answer?? Or are you going to kick him in his ass, and get him motivated to move in the right direction? I spent 20 years in the Submarine Force and I've seen people come and go. And the ones that went were sent haze gray and underway on surface ships. Which, BTW, was the same as failing. Next time someone tells a senior NCO he doesn't want to do something, point out that the contract he signed doesn't say anything about liking it. He (or she) doesn't have to like it. They just have to do it. STS1(SS) USN, Ret
Now, before everyone jumps on me, let me give you my opinion on this matter. This was the late '70s. We were still in the Viet Nam mind set. However; when did the military go from being a gung ho military organization to a job? "Ask him what's wrong". Really?! When you're at 400ft and there's a fire in the Torpedo Room, or you're someplace where people are shooting at you are you really going to take no as an answer?? Or are you going to kick him in his ass, and get him motivated to move in the right direction? I spent 20 years in the Submarine Force and I've seen people come and go. And the ones that went were sent haze gray and underway on surface ships. Which, BTW, was the same as failing. Next time someone tells a senior NCO he doesn't want to do something, point out that the contract he signed doesn't say anything about liking it. He (or she) doesn't have to like it. They just have to do it. STS1(SS) USN, Ret
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SCPO Lloyd Sikes
Been there and done that in early 60's.
Used to work well, but times have changed, along with everything else.
Used to work well, but times have changed, along with everything else.
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LTC Stuart Knade
As a new 2LT infantry rifle platoon leader (Army) 43 years ago I had tons to learn from my plt sgt, a 2-tour Vietnam vet as a Marine. When this kind of thing happened he would tell me that he had it under control and not to ask questions. "Don't ask me sir". I never saw repeats of that kind of behavior.
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LTC Stuart Knade
I should add that the biggest lesson was that officers should let the NCOs take care of "Sergeant's business".
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PO2 Stephen Brownell
When and E2 stated that he wouldn't do it we would have a little talk in the boatswin locker or in the boiler room then he would not talk or open his mouth when he was not asked
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