Law Enforcement
Law Enforcement
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2LT Caron Navario, US Army seems to have gotten himself in trouble with the law. Was his actions, justified or not, typical of 2LT behavior?
There is vigorous debate about this incident. Have you seen the video? Have you seen the video of the whole incident?
I usually try to defend newly commissioned officers (2LT). The opinions, particularly of Sr NCO's, seem to be very poor regarding the "butter bars." However, in this particular case, it would seem that, should any Sr. NCO feel that this is not atypical of a "shave tail" behavior, I must sadly conclude that I have no argument.
Am I wrong?
There is vigorous debate about this incident. Have you seen the video? Have you seen the video of the whole incident?
I usually try to defend newly commissioned officers (2LT). The opinions, particularly of Sr NCO's, seem to be very poor regarding the "butter bars." However, in this particular case, it would seem that, should any Sr. NCO feel that this is not atypical of a "shave tail" behavior, I must sadly conclude that I have no argument.
Am I wrong?
Justice
Law Enforcement
2LT
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 13
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2LT Nazario handled himself exceptionally well. He was calm and collected although he was visibly uneasy. The officers were completely in the wrong and the main agitator was justifiably fired.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
SP5 (Join to see) - Which version of events did you watch? Did the one you saw last longer than four minutes?
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis - Why don't you post a link to the one that you want watched, instead of repeating the same question ad nauseam.
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He actually hasn't gotten himself "in trouble with the law." This happened in Dec 2020. No charges filed. No citation. It's now making rounds because he's suing the police - and one of the cops was fired after this all went viral.
The cops had no reason to pull him over. Let's believe for a second they didn't see his temp tag - even though it's clearly visible. As soon as they walked up to the car, they'd see it and then should have said "Sorry sir, didn't see the tag at first. Have a nice night."
But nope. They didn't.
Next look at the fact he was on an unlit road so he did what the police tell people to do if they don't feel safe pulling over or aren't in a safe area - drive slowly. Turn on your emergency lights and let the officers know you're not evading by doing this.
He pulled into a gas station that was well lit and a public space. Nothing illegal on that.
The cops came at him with attitude and anger. That one cop - watch how he holds his gun. Watch his demeanor. He was looking for a reason to shoot that LT. Not once did the LT resist. Not once did he give attitude or fight back.
He gets pepper sprayed - now he can't see or breathe well and his dog is in the back choking too. Then they give conflicting orders. He says he's scared to get out and the one cop says "you should be" and tells the LT he's going to "ride the lightning."
The body cam justifies EVERYTHING in the LT's lawsuit. Everything he said. Now one of the cops is fired.
I had to Google "shave tail" behavior because I have never heard that term in my life. Here's what comes up: "1 : a pack mule especially when newly broken in. 2 usually disparaging : second lieutenant." Hmm...strange term to use for a 2LT.
I don't see what this has to do with him being a 2LT at all. LT Navario did nothing more than be a black man in a brand new car. Period.
The cops had no reason to pull him over. Let's believe for a second they didn't see his temp tag - even though it's clearly visible. As soon as they walked up to the car, they'd see it and then should have said "Sorry sir, didn't see the tag at first. Have a nice night."
But nope. They didn't.
Next look at the fact he was on an unlit road so he did what the police tell people to do if they don't feel safe pulling over or aren't in a safe area - drive slowly. Turn on your emergency lights and let the officers know you're not evading by doing this.
He pulled into a gas station that was well lit and a public space. Nothing illegal on that.
The cops came at him with attitude and anger. That one cop - watch how he holds his gun. Watch his demeanor. He was looking for a reason to shoot that LT. Not once did the LT resist. Not once did he give attitude or fight back.
He gets pepper sprayed - now he can't see or breathe well and his dog is in the back choking too. Then they give conflicting orders. He says he's scared to get out and the one cop says "you should be" and tells the LT he's going to "ride the lightning."
The body cam justifies EVERYTHING in the LT's lawsuit. Everything he said. Now one of the cops is fired.
I had to Google "shave tail" behavior because I have never heard that term in my life. Here's what comes up: "1 : a pack mule especially when newly broken in. 2 usually disparaging : second lieutenant." Hmm...strange term to use for a 2LT.
I don't see what this has to do with him being a 2LT at all. LT Navario did nothing more than be a black man in a brand new car. Period.
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MSgt Steve Sweeney
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis - He had multiple officers giving conflicting instructions with guns pointed at him. Had he moved his hands from view to unbuckle his seat belt or open the door and then been shot and killed... what then? -- The cops say they thought he was reaching for a gun. They walk. He is dead.
At that point he may have been observing the adage that it is better to get judged by 12 than carried by 6 and risked some legal jeopardy to maintain his alive status.
Also, have you heard of the 4th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? Are you a lawyer or have a degree in law? Could you be called to give expert testimony on what orders police may give that are lawful or unlawful? Just curious on what grounds you make the statement "... the order to exit the vehicle was lawful, there are no circumstances that make it unlawful.".
At that point he may have been observing the adage that it is better to get judged by 12 than carried by 6 and risked some legal jeopardy to maintain his alive status.
Also, have you heard of the 4th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? Are you a lawyer or have a degree in law? Could you be called to give expert testimony on what orders police may give that are lawful or unlawful? Just curious on what grounds you make the statement "... the order to exit the vehicle was lawful, there are no circumstances that make it unlawful.".
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Capt Chris McVeigh
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis That is factually incorrect. An officer may only order the driver to exit if the traffic stop itself is lawful. From my understanding, the traffic stop was conducted because the officers claimed they could not see the temporary tags. Since they were in fact displayed, this would at first glance put the legality of the entire stop into question.
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Capt Gregory Prickett
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis - you do understand that not obeying the police is not normally a criminal offense, don't you? And that legally, your statement that "the order to exit the vehicle was lawful, there are no circumstances that make it unlawful" is incorrect? Are you even aware of the legal debate on the issue, see James Mooney, "The Power of Police Officers to Give 'Lawful Orders'", 129 Yale L.J. 1567 (2020), where the issue is discussed in great detail?
You do understand that the firing of the police officer involves raises substantial questions on the propriety of the officer's actions, don't you?
You do understand that the firing of the police officer involves raises substantial questions on the propriety of the officer's actions, don't you?
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The LT. acted correctly. Why?? He didn't end up getting killed by a pair of worthless cops who should of never been allowed to wear the blue.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
Here is the video I watched. In this video, the LT was ordered to exit his vehicle. He did not. This order was given several times. He refused to obey this order each time. What do you think is the consequence of refusing a lawful order. Oh, and the order to exit the vehicle was lawful, there are no circumstances that make it unlawful. A LEO has the authority to issue that order, unconditionally. Period. The LT could have defused the situation, but elected not to.
This was after he refused another lawful order to stop. (This order is implied when the Law Enforcement Vehicle displayed appropriate lights...nobody is questioning that this happened.) Instead of complying, he drove for another mile and a half. If the speed limit was 30 MPH then this meant that he refused a lawful order for well over three minutes. Three minutes! Imagine of your Shirt of Commander gave you a lawful order (intended for immediate compliance) and you refused to comply for three minutes. He could have defuse the situation by complying with almost half a dozen lawful orders, but he chose to disregard them. That is not good risk management.
This was after he refused another lawful order to stop. (This order is implied when the Law Enforcement Vehicle displayed appropriate lights...nobody is questioning that this happened.) Instead of complying, he drove for another mile and a half. If the speed limit was 30 MPH then this meant that he refused a lawful order for well over three minutes. Three minutes! Imagine of your Shirt of Commander gave you a lawful order (intended for immediate compliance) and you refused to comply for three minutes. He could have defuse the situation by complying with almost half a dozen lawful orders, but he chose to disregard them. That is not good risk management.
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MSgt Steve Sweeney
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis - Here is counsel from a legal reference site:
Getting Stopped By The Police
A law enforcement officer must have a reasonable suspicion that a traffic infraction occurred or was committed by the driver or there is a violation of public law. [didn't see tag - okay] The trigger for the stop is a reasonable suspicion that the person did something wrong. The officer turns on the lights and may use the siren to signal to the driver to pull over to the side of the road. The person should try to find a reasonable stop as soon as possible to avoid the appearance of eluding the officer. [I believe the LT slowed down or remained at the speed limit. I know he displayed his hazard lights - made no indication of trying to evade]
The general standard is that the driver should stop as soon as it is practical to do so. They should pull over as soon as possible. When the road has a shoulder, the person should try to move to the right and pull over on the shoulder. If the road is narrow, they can continue to drive briefly until they find a safe place to pull over onto the shoulder or in a parking lot. [Note this part] They should also make sure that the area is well lit for their safety and for the officer’s safety. [The LT did so - found well lit area] The officer may try to find a spot with a lamppost or some light in the parking lot. If there is no light at all or no safe area to stop on the road, the driver should find the next parking area or complex to pull over and wait for the officer.
https://www.recklessdrivinglawyer.net/virginia-traffic-lawyer/stops/
Getting Stopped By The Police
A law enforcement officer must have a reasonable suspicion that a traffic infraction occurred or was committed by the driver or there is a violation of public law. [didn't see tag - okay] The trigger for the stop is a reasonable suspicion that the person did something wrong. The officer turns on the lights and may use the siren to signal to the driver to pull over to the side of the road. The person should try to find a reasonable stop as soon as possible to avoid the appearance of eluding the officer. [I believe the LT slowed down or remained at the speed limit. I know he displayed his hazard lights - made no indication of trying to evade]
The general standard is that the driver should stop as soon as it is practical to do so. They should pull over as soon as possible. When the road has a shoulder, the person should try to move to the right and pull over on the shoulder. If the road is narrow, they can continue to drive briefly until they find a safe place to pull over onto the shoulder or in a parking lot. [Note this part] They should also make sure that the area is well lit for their safety and for the officer’s safety. [The LT did so - found well lit area] The officer may try to find a spot with a lamppost or some light in the parking lot. If there is no light at all or no safe area to stop on the road, the driver should find the next parking area or complex to pull over and wait for the officer.
https://www.recklessdrivinglawyer.net/virginia-traffic-lawyer/stops/
Virginia Traffic Stops | Getting Pulled Over By Police
If you have any questions about Virginia traffic stops and how your traffic stop can impact your case, speak with an experienced traffic lawyer today.
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SFC (Join to see)
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis - What video? There's no link in your post.
Let's try to break this down for you:
The cops initiate a traffic stop claiming they don't see plates. The LT does what people are regularly informed to do - by police - when in a traffic stop to pull over asap if you can't pull over safely at the time. It was a dark road with no lights. So he drove SLOWLY a mile to the nearest gas station that was lit up.
When they pull into the gas station - they tell him to put his hands up, keep his hands up and slowly exit. HE tells them he has on his seat belt so he can't get out without putting his hands down. The contradicting orders keep going. Several times. So he's scared and confused as to how he's supposed to keep his hands up and unbuckle to get out.
LE don't have any right to "unconditionally" order anyone to do anything. That's your other error in your post.
He absolutely didn't refuse to stop. He drove to a safe, well lit area. That is well known that if you can't safely pull over or you don't feel safe, you can drive slowly with your emergency lights on to let police know you're not fleeing.
"Imagine of your Shirt of Commander gave you a lawful order (intended for immediate compliance) and you refused to comply for three minutes." - Stop with your hypothetical scenarios that have NOTHING to do with this situation.
If I had a 1SG or commander or ANYONE higher rank give me an unlawful order, I would not follow it. The police had no right to do what they did when the stop was for no plates. But he had a temp tag.
I don't understand what your issue is with this man if it's because he's a 2LT or that he's black. But you have issues.
Let's try to break this down for you:
The cops initiate a traffic stop claiming they don't see plates. The LT does what people are regularly informed to do - by police - when in a traffic stop to pull over asap if you can't pull over safely at the time. It was a dark road with no lights. So he drove SLOWLY a mile to the nearest gas station that was lit up.
When they pull into the gas station - they tell him to put his hands up, keep his hands up and slowly exit. HE tells them he has on his seat belt so he can't get out without putting his hands down. The contradicting orders keep going. Several times. So he's scared and confused as to how he's supposed to keep his hands up and unbuckle to get out.
LE don't have any right to "unconditionally" order anyone to do anything. That's your other error in your post.
He absolutely didn't refuse to stop. He drove to a safe, well lit area. That is well known that if you can't safely pull over or you don't feel safe, you can drive slowly with your emergency lights on to let police know you're not fleeing.
"Imagine of your Shirt of Commander gave you a lawful order (intended for immediate compliance) and you refused to comply for three minutes." - Stop with your hypothetical scenarios that have NOTHING to do with this situation.
If I had a 1SG or commander or ANYONE higher rank give me an unlawful order, I would not follow it. The police had no right to do what they did when the stop was for no plates. But he had a temp tag.
I don't understand what your issue is with this man if it's because he's a 2LT or that he's black. But you have issues.
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MSgt (Join to see)
Pulling into the lighted area and not immediately reaching for his seat belt probably saved his life.
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