Mental Health
Mental Health
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3
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Opinion: PTSD as it relates to combat, is the direct confrontation with malevolence with either the self or the world.
I would love to talk about this with you all. If examples are needed to clarify, let me know. I wanted to keep the main point short.
I would love to talk about this with you all. If examples are needed to clarify, let me know. I wanted to keep the main point short.
PTSD
Mental Health
11B: Infantryman
0311: Rifleman
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 13
4
4
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I'd have to disagree with that opinion, at least in my case.
What I find is that it is a confrontation of choices.
To wit: if I had done this instead of that, the outcome would be different.
When my symptoms are at their worst, I have a feedback loop where rather than reliving certain events, they are changed subtly to reflect different things I might have done but didn't.
What I find is that it is a confrontation of choices.
To wit: if I had done this instead of that, the outcome would be different.
When my symptoms are at their worst, I have a feedback loop where rather than reliving certain events, they are changed subtly to reflect different things I might have done but didn't.
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1SG (Join to see)
1SG John Faircloth - Then they give you medals for it, and you're supposed to just be humble and move on...
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SGT(P) (Join to see)
1SG Healy, can you give me an example of the choices? If you're comfortable doing so of course.
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1SG (Join to see)
SGT(P) (Join to see) - This will be lengthy, but the read might be worth it to others so here goes -
Back in the early days of OIF my team received a mission to determine the whereabouts of a known Ansar al-Sunna cell operating northwest of Mosul. It was a link in the chain of smuggling fighters and weaponry from Syria.
Visiting several villages and towns in that relatively unpatrolled area, certain signs gave away the town where they were likely at.
My Team Chief decided that in order to monitor the area and attempt to get targetable information and PID our high value targeted individuals, we'd need a plausible reason to come back on a recurring basis. He decided to adopt the local school and fix it up.
Now this was no small decision, and resulted in vehement disagreement within the team. We had learned the hard way that doing stuff like that often resulted in getting attacked while among children or worse, having the children targeted while we weren't there.
Choice #1 - disagreeing more vociferously or maybe coming up with a viable alternative.
Anyway, we do a series of small things that cost us little in the way of money. Got them new desks from a wrecked school we knew about. Got them a front door and a blackboard. Fixed up their playground. Most of that wasn't even contracted; we just scrounged supplies and swung the hammers ourselves or with the help of locals. All the while, vigilant to look for people we knew or unusual activity.
Choice #2 - I knew fixing the playground so visibly was likely to draw interest - in fact I was banking on it to PID our targets. The risk was using that environment to bait them into revealing themselves.
Which they did. At the "opening ceremony" (a little strong for what it was, but it was a big deal to the town), the kids ran to play on their new teeter-totters and swings, while the Nahia leadership came there to show appreciation. Duly noted: the Nahia manager and council felt safe visibly interacting with us. That means they are either in cahoots or have an understanding with AAS.
Choice #3 - what to do with that nugget. The Nahia manager was pretty influential and wealthy. Rolling him up would have consequences beyond tactical leverage. We elect to RTB to consult with the CP about next steps.
AAS didn't wait. They blew a car bomb at that school that we could hear from our motor pool 30 km away at our FOB while we were recovering from the mission. Soon word came down about what had happened. 36 kids killed, a dozen or so with life-altering injuries. Only a few that happened to be on the far side of the building were spared. This was a whole generation in a town of 700 or so residents.
We found ourselves spooling up a mission to do consequence management an hour after the sounds found us. We had no real plan as we left the gate four hours after the blast.
Choice #4 - how to handle this?
We approached Tel Reem and I halted us short of the objective to figure out what we were going to do. Out in the open desert, what I came up with was this (the Major was silent):
The whole town was likely affected by the afternoon's carnage. We could see scores of people around the mosque on the west side of town, for the funerals happening before sundown. Best guess for where our AAS prey was at was in the Northeast quadrant. Plan was to interpose our element between the likely route of the funeral procession and any possible additional attacks from AAS. In the process, the procession would pass near us, and we would likely take a lot of heat.
Tel Reem did not disappoint. We were greeted with first anger, then rocks and shoes. Arguments that our interpreter could not make out were occurring near the tail of a long line of small boxes. A man approached, identifying himself as the father of three of those boxes, as well as a little girl who went to Mosul General minus a leg. (Kataria has a happier ending, I am happy to say). He points northward, and sure enough, a man with binoculars around his neck is atop a balcony watching events.
Figuring that was enough, we called up our friends to launch a mission to roll these Muldoons up - successfully killing/capturing several folks on the list and capturing some useful material. That is win, right?
We go home late that night, not feeling very successful despite attaboys from the task force guys.
We made several attempts to make contact with officials in TR to do consequence management and pay death grants. Unsurprisingly, our calls went unanswered or returned. Two weeks later, I decide to show up at the planned Nahia meeting to intercede directly.
This is the worst part of being a Civil Affairs soldier, hands down.
Choice #5 - How to handle this?
So we arrive at the meeting, and pretty much halt all business with our presence. Not looking forward to this at all, I watch as the Major tries to offer payments for their loss. He doesn't do very well, and I decided to intercede.
I looked Said Al-Masr in the eye and said "Nothing I can do will bring those children back. They were not my children - my daughter is safe at home. But I did get to know several of them. Kicked a soccer ball with them. Learned their names and that they wanted to visit Disney World someday. We all grieved when we heard what happened."
"Let us do this small thing. It will help us heal and you to rebuild. If you tell me you never want to see us again, we will leave and not return. But at the very least, allow us to send another team out here to pay claims for loss and damage."
Al-Masr was a hard guy to read. He walked up and said words that still haunt me. Standing inches in front of me he says, "Arif Ahwad Healy, it took courage to come see us. I appreciate your offer and your sympathy. And I never want to see you again."
He blamed us, and he was right. None of that would have happened if different choices were made.
Back in the early days of OIF my team received a mission to determine the whereabouts of a known Ansar al-Sunna cell operating northwest of Mosul. It was a link in the chain of smuggling fighters and weaponry from Syria.
Visiting several villages and towns in that relatively unpatrolled area, certain signs gave away the town where they were likely at.
My Team Chief decided that in order to monitor the area and attempt to get targetable information and PID our high value targeted individuals, we'd need a plausible reason to come back on a recurring basis. He decided to adopt the local school and fix it up.
Now this was no small decision, and resulted in vehement disagreement within the team. We had learned the hard way that doing stuff like that often resulted in getting attacked while among children or worse, having the children targeted while we weren't there.
Choice #1 - disagreeing more vociferously or maybe coming up with a viable alternative.
Anyway, we do a series of small things that cost us little in the way of money. Got them new desks from a wrecked school we knew about. Got them a front door and a blackboard. Fixed up their playground. Most of that wasn't even contracted; we just scrounged supplies and swung the hammers ourselves or with the help of locals. All the while, vigilant to look for people we knew or unusual activity.
Choice #2 - I knew fixing the playground so visibly was likely to draw interest - in fact I was banking on it to PID our targets. The risk was using that environment to bait them into revealing themselves.
Which they did. At the "opening ceremony" (a little strong for what it was, but it was a big deal to the town), the kids ran to play on their new teeter-totters and swings, while the Nahia leadership came there to show appreciation. Duly noted: the Nahia manager and council felt safe visibly interacting with us. That means they are either in cahoots or have an understanding with AAS.
Choice #3 - what to do with that nugget. The Nahia manager was pretty influential and wealthy. Rolling him up would have consequences beyond tactical leverage. We elect to RTB to consult with the CP about next steps.
AAS didn't wait. They blew a car bomb at that school that we could hear from our motor pool 30 km away at our FOB while we were recovering from the mission. Soon word came down about what had happened. 36 kids killed, a dozen or so with life-altering injuries. Only a few that happened to be on the far side of the building were spared. This was a whole generation in a town of 700 or so residents.
We found ourselves spooling up a mission to do consequence management an hour after the sounds found us. We had no real plan as we left the gate four hours after the blast.
Choice #4 - how to handle this?
We approached Tel Reem and I halted us short of the objective to figure out what we were going to do. Out in the open desert, what I came up with was this (the Major was silent):
The whole town was likely affected by the afternoon's carnage. We could see scores of people around the mosque on the west side of town, for the funerals happening before sundown. Best guess for where our AAS prey was at was in the Northeast quadrant. Plan was to interpose our element between the likely route of the funeral procession and any possible additional attacks from AAS. In the process, the procession would pass near us, and we would likely take a lot of heat.
Tel Reem did not disappoint. We were greeted with first anger, then rocks and shoes. Arguments that our interpreter could not make out were occurring near the tail of a long line of small boxes. A man approached, identifying himself as the father of three of those boxes, as well as a little girl who went to Mosul General minus a leg. (Kataria has a happier ending, I am happy to say). He points northward, and sure enough, a man with binoculars around his neck is atop a balcony watching events.
Figuring that was enough, we called up our friends to launch a mission to roll these Muldoons up - successfully killing/capturing several folks on the list and capturing some useful material. That is win, right?
We go home late that night, not feeling very successful despite attaboys from the task force guys.
We made several attempts to make contact with officials in TR to do consequence management and pay death grants. Unsurprisingly, our calls went unanswered or returned. Two weeks later, I decide to show up at the planned Nahia meeting to intercede directly.
This is the worst part of being a Civil Affairs soldier, hands down.
Choice #5 - How to handle this?
So we arrive at the meeting, and pretty much halt all business with our presence. Not looking forward to this at all, I watch as the Major tries to offer payments for their loss. He doesn't do very well, and I decided to intercede.
I looked Said Al-Masr in the eye and said "Nothing I can do will bring those children back. They were not my children - my daughter is safe at home. But I did get to know several of them. Kicked a soccer ball with them. Learned their names and that they wanted to visit Disney World someday. We all grieved when we heard what happened."
"Let us do this small thing. It will help us heal and you to rebuild. If you tell me you never want to see us again, we will leave and not return. But at the very least, allow us to send another team out here to pay claims for loss and damage."
Al-Masr was a hard guy to read. He walked up and said words that still haunt me. Standing inches in front of me he says, "Arif Ahwad Healy, it took courage to come see us. I appreciate your offer and your sympathy. And I never want to see you again."
He blamed us, and he was right. None of that would have happened if different choices were made.
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SSgt Richard Kensinger
War is absolute insanity. During Vietnam, more citizens were killed than combatants on both sides combined. The very vast majority of combatants, loathe killing other humans. Read for example WarHorse vignettes and "Shooting Ghosts" by Finbarr O'Reily and his co-author who is the founder of WH.
Rich
Rich
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I have several published articles addressing this issue. I've been conducting research on combat trauma for over 3 yrs. One of my articles addresses what I refer to as the "Dark Beast". If anyone is interested, contact me " [login to see] " and I will send you copies of 4 of my articles.
Rich
Rich
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3
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"PTSD as it relates to combat" is an entirely different animal than any provider understands. The only answer you will get is one from a book where PTSD is viewed as all encompassing. Those using this standard to diagnose will say if one exhibits this behavior or that one then they suffer from PTSD. The problem is if we read the diagnosis as it is written it can easily be interpreted as having PTSD from an incident that happened as a child such as falling off of a bike while trying to learn to ride. Only those who have experienced combat first hand have a say in this arena. The best example I can give is this: Do I have any credibility in telling a woman what it is like to be a woman? Not at all because I was never nor have I ever been a woman.
The problem with PTSD is perspective, while two individuals may have been present for a singular event the way this event is interpreted internally by each individual is vastly different. Civilians can suffer from every form of PTSD that a Service member can suffer from the only difference is a Service member can experience these events while active and Combat.
The military teaches how to do one's job, consistent training engrains this training allowing one to become very proficient in their chosen field. This is why some run towards a fight and others run from it. Where the military has failed is training those who have had to travel that road into the dragons mouth and live with what they have seen and done. In literature there are three ways of understanding a protagonists motives 1. Man vs. Man 2. Man vs. Nature and 3. Man vs. Himself. In combat we contend with all three simultaneously. So is it confrontation with malevolent forces either self or the world? First its externally the fight for survival and that of our brothers, second it is the terrain and conditions on the battlefield we fight another external factor. The last factor of fighting our self is where the lingering aspects of combat last "what could I have done differently?" "Why didn't I do more?" "Why did I make it and my brothers didn't?" I call this the could'a, should'a or would'a aspect of combat.
The problem with PTSD is perspective, while two individuals may have been present for a singular event the way this event is interpreted internally by each individual is vastly different. Civilians can suffer from every form of PTSD that a Service member can suffer from the only difference is a Service member can experience these events while active and Combat.
The military teaches how to do one's job, consistent training engrains this training allowing one to become very proficient in their chosen field. This is why some run towards a fight and others run from it. Where the military has failed is training those who have had to travel that road into the dragons mouth and live with what they have seen and done. In literature there are three ways of understanding a protagonists motives 1. Man vs. Man 2. Man vs. Nature and 3. Man vs. Himself. In combat we contend with all three simultaneously. So is it confrontation with malevolent forces either self or the world? First its externally the fight for survival and that of our brothers, second it is the terrain and conditions on the battlefield we fight another external factor. The last factor of fighting our self is where the lingering aspects of combat last "what could I have done differently?" "Why didn't I do more?" "Why did I make it and my brothers didn't?" I call this the could'a, should'a or would'a aspect of combat.
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SSG Eduardo Ybarra Jr. MS Psyc
SSgt Richard Kensinger - Not to impugn your work on understanding the complexities of PTSD; however, I have found that group sessions are a double edged sword. Meaning that some sessions yield more questions than answers. This is not always the case but I weigh the benefit against the cost. I would really like to open a dialog with you about how this method has worked for you. Thank you in advance
Eddie
Eddie
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Patricia Overmeyer
SSG Eduardo Ybarra Jr. MS Psyc - It's still the same old advice given to spouses where everything is centered on what you need to do to take care of the veteran. I heard it back in the early 80s when I was a young spouse (now I'm a seasoned spouse of 40 years). Now I hear it from my clients who are seeking a divorce. No one seems to address their needs, their feelings, their mental health issues. And that void leads them down a very lonely road. There are few to no support groups that address the spouse's needs, just the veterans. But I get it, we are not the ones that should get any help. We aren't the veterans with PTSD.
I recently was given the latest VA brochure handed out to one of my clients in their spousal support group. Of 20+ pages, only 1 is devoted to the spouse's needs. It was so pathetic and sexist I damned near eye rolled myself into another universe...relax in a warm bubble bath, have a spa day, get your nails done, bake some cookies or bread. WTF?!!! Of course, there was also the take a long walk, do some yoga, get some exercise, blah, blah, blah. And people wonder why there is such a high divorce rate among veterans and active duty military.
I recently was given the latest VA brochure handed out to one of my clients in their spousal support group. Of 20+ pages, only 1 is devoted to the spouse's needs. It was so pathetic and sexist I damned near eye rolled myself into another universe...relax in a warm bubble bath, have a spa day, get your nails done, bake some cookies or bread. WTF?!!! Of course, there was also the take a long walk, do some yoga, get some exercise, blah, blah, blah. And people wonder why there is such a high divorce rate among veterans and active duty military.
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SSG Eduardo Ybarra Jr. MS Psyc
Patricia Overmeyer - I get where you are coming from. My current family dynamic is my wife and I are both Veterans who have served in a few of the same theaters of operation. What you have described is something that I have been addressing within my peer network and that is the absence of family involvement; an outreach as it were for those spouses and dependent children of Veterans suffering with PTSD. I do apologize for the patronizing information you were given it does in no way speak for all of us who understand the issues and comorbidity associated with those suffering with PTSD.
As I was alluding to in my initial post is the military trains in such a fashion where a person goes from 5mph to 1000mph. Imagine a person getting to a new unit, they are all going 5mph. Once they get the call to deploy in the near future the unit begins to train (speeding up) when the unit finally gets on board the plane to deploy they are at 500mph. The unit continues to train in order to remain proficient and eventually reach the 1000mph mark. Ok now the mission is complete and time to come home they are still traveling at a 1000mph and they being placed in a 5mph world. The sudden decrease in speed does what? Not being able to gradually slow down the impact of a sudden decrease in speed causes a myriad of issues.
The one element I know to wreak havoc on a Veteran is the absence of support. Not that family is not a support system, it is a very strong component of the recovery, but those within a platoon offer a different component of the recovery. There is some connection that is missing once a person departs the military. I know this may not help but I would ask if you could inform your clients to attend sessions (therapy) together and I would recommend the Veteran seek the advice of a psychologist not a psychiatrist. One works on behavior the other works on over medicating. There are now several programs that are not within the military where the family and Veteran can interact in order to better understand each issue of PTSD. Of course this will only work with couples who are committed to "making it work". Giving up on each other will benefit neither of the parties especially when children are involved.
If I can be of any assistance in your endeavors please feel free to contact me.
Very Respectfully,
Eddie
As I was alluding to in my initial post is the military trains in such a fashion where a person goes from 5mph to 1000mph. Imagine a person getting to a new unit, they are all going 5mph. Once they get the call to deploy in the near future the unit begins to train (speeding up) when the unit finally gets on board the plane to deploy they are at 500mph. The unit continues to train in order to remain proficient and eventually reach the 1000mph mark. Ok now the mission is complete and time to come home they are still traveling at a 1000mph and they being placed in a 5mph world. The sudden decrease in speed does what? Not being able to gradually slow down the impact of a sudden decrease in speed causes a myriad of issues.
The one element I know to wreak havoc on a Veteran is the absence of support. Not that family is not a support system, it is a very strong component of the recovery, but those within a platoon offer a different component of the recovery. There is some connection that is missing once a person departs the military. I know this may not help but I would ask if you could inform your clients to attend sessions (therapy) together and I would recommend the Veteran seek the advice of a psychologist not a psychiatrist. One works on behavior the other works on over medicating. There are now several programs that are not within the military where the family and Veteran can interact in order to better understand each issue of PTSD. Of course this will only work with couples who are committed to "making it work". Giving up on each other will benefit neither of the parties especially when children are involved.
If I can be of any assistance in your endeavors please feel free to contact me.
Very Respectfully,
Eddie
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Patricia Overmeyer
SSG Eduardo Ybarra Jr. MS Psyc - I served vicariously...daughter/daughter in law of combat vets, niece/niece in law of combat vets, cousin/cousin in law of combat vets, friends who are combat vets, wife of a combat vet, aunt of a combat vet. I understand the issue from different perspectives so I can weed out the bs claim of "he has PTSD" from the true claims. My favorite was the "PTSD can be cured and he won't go get cured". No, didn't take that person as a client.
The majority of my practice is representing either the military member/veteran or their spouse in various family law issues. By the time they are in my office, they are not amenable to counseling. They have gone through it and nothing has changed. I talk at length with my clients regarding possibly getting counseling to save the marriage. Usually what I hear from the spouse regarding counseling was exactly what I wrote. The VA, Veteran's Centers, on base counseling, etc. are not geared toward the spouse, but are all geared toward the service member/veteran. While there are some programs outside of the military circle that deal with family/spouses, they are few and far between and usually not covered by insurance.
My major focus when children are involved is that they are able to have a safe space with the service member/veteran. Children need each parent, but each parent needs to be able to provide physically and emotionally for the children. And I need to educate the judges that PTSD is not a diagnosis which means that parent shouldn't ever have the children alone, but that there is a need for the parent to step up to the plate, get the counseling and be a part of the children's lives in a positive role. To me, that is the most imperative part of the divorce process.
The majority of my practice is representing either the military member/veteran or their spouse in various family law issues. By the time they are in my office, they are not amenable to counseling. They have gone through it and nothing has changed. I talk at length with my clients regarding possibly getting counseling to save the marriage. Usually what I hear from the spouse regarding counseling was exactly what I wrote. The VA, Veteran's Centers, on base counseling, etc. are not geared toward the spouse, but are all geared toward the service member/veteran. While there are some programs outside of the military circle that deal with family/spouses, they are few and far between and usually not covered by insurance.
My major focus when children are involved is that they are able to have a safe space with the service member/veteran. Children need each parent, but each parent needs to be able to provide physically and emotionally for the children. And I need to educate the judges that PTSD is not a diagnosis which means that parent shouldn't ever have the children alone, but that there is a need for the parent to step up to the plate, get the counseling and be a part of the children's lives in a positive role. To me, that is the most imperative part of the divorce process.
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