Posted on Oct 16, 2016
PO1 Officer Candidate
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
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GySgt Kenneth Pepper
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It must be nipped in the bud quickly and without hesitation. Having had a few minutes to think about it, here goes....
PFC Shitbird and his team leader stand fast. All others fall out and carry on.

Have PFC Dipshit stand by while I ensure his team leader knows what my expectations are; "Instant obedience to lawful orders. Period. Any other answer is unacceptable. The fact that PFC Dipshit thinks it is okay to open his trap is a direct reflection of your leadership. Take a look at how you are leading and determine how this could happen."

To PFC Dipshit; "If you have decided to end your time in the military you have chosen a sure-fire method. If you do not comply with lawful orders, it will eventually end with you on a bus headed for home. But only after spending the next few weeks/months becoming the example of what not to do. If that is what you want, we will go there. If not, get your ass moving on what you were ordered to do."
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SGM Kenneth Stanton
SGM Kenneth Stanton
3 mo
Basically GySgt Pepper is saying the same thing I am saying & I basically agree.
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SGT Joseph Yost
SGT Joseph Yost
1 mo
Well said, short and to the point!
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1SG Michael Farrell
1SG Michael Farrell
8 d
Oh, my. A sailor mouthed off in formation and we're having a discussion about that. I think it's a fairly common problem, and it's one the services have dealt with since Private Gog mouthed off to CPL Magog at the clean up detail for the Tower of Babylon. It all comes down to clarifying expectations and establishing boundaries. This is the sort of situation that the Summary Art 15 was established for. And, it's a good tool, if properly used.
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PO2 Pamela Perry (Sanders)
PO2 Pamela Perry (Sanders)
4 d
Seems reasonqblw to me. I was raised in the south. That means yes, Sur abd Yes Ma’am were mandarory from the 'point that I spoke my first word. Ddepending on the young E-2’s background, Sir and Ma’am and norml (not necessarily military) customs and courtesies may not come naturally. The E-2 was WAY out of line. Ring him or her up short, and make your expectations beyond clear. After that, he or she makes their own decisions.
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CPL(P) Tech Ops Fleet Management
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Edited 4 y ago
Praise in public, punish in private. "You stand fast after formation." Give him a chance to explain insubordination. Mandatory counseling. If he is defiant in private after getting the chance then burn him. ART15. Sometimes people are defiant because something happened and they feel out of control so they try to take it wherever they can no matter how inappropriate. Sometimes a wife cheated or a parent died. Sometimes the hospital calls and congratulates you on having cancer. To outright burn a Joe without gathering the facts is irresponsible and we would want someone breathing down our neck to take that extra moment to consider what might be going on too. If it's nothing more than attitude and a shitty personality then by all means light that dead Christmas tree and know you probably saved lives downrange.
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SPC Chris Ison
SPC Chris Ison
3 mo
SGT Gary Tob - It doesn't work like that.

The reason i mentioned a coke can is because they used coke cans as IED's in Iraq.

Before you ever get to combat, you make sure everyone knows this is a TEAM fucking effort.

As i said the military is not now, nor has it ever been, an individual evolution.

And that is why you punish the whole squad, one guy fucking up in the squad is the whole squads fault. We are members of a team. The chain of command is only as strong as its weakest link.

I am my brothers keeper.
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1SG Fred "SARGE" Bucci
1SG Fred "SARGE" Bucci
3 mo
Ison, That is pure bullshit! You do not punish an entire squad for ones individual screwup. That's call mass punishment. How the hell do you make it to E-4 with an attitude like that? I have not voted anyone down but I'm close to doing it. You are not my brother and certainly not my keeper.
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SPC Kelly Grindstaff
SPC Kelly Grindstaff
3 mo
SFC (Join to see) - Correct get their Attention Right now, and a side note until they shape up they "Will" be on every shit detail until they get their act together. If needed up the chain of command we will go.
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SPC Chris Ison
SPC Chris Ison
2 mo
1SG Fred "SARGE" Bucci - I have had good leaders and I have bad leaders. I have been punished as an individual and I have been punished as a group.

Let us say a private loses his weapon, he he the only who looks for said weapon? Nope, team effort, and that is also punishment.

Say a private gets injured. You then hold a safety stand down, and everyone attends, that is also punishment and it is done to the entire group.

Let us say you have a fucked up private and you have done everything you can do, within the limits of the UCMJ, and he still is not squared away. You punish his entire squad, and then they take matters into their own hands.

I have had squad leaders that did push ups with me, even though it was my fuck up, because they knew they had afield to educate me on the proper way of doing things. I have had squad leaders make all the people in the squad do push ups for the same reason, the rest of the squad failed to instruct this private on the proper way to do something.

The difference between you and me? You are POG and I am not. In the infantry everyone looks out for everyone else.

Finally, I am pretty sure the reason some of you are so against group punishment is because you have, in the past, been punished for someone else's mistake and you are still bent over it.
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PO1 David Gibbens
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I can speak from experience on this one. On my first boat( yes I'm a submariner) as an E3 I was made Deck Div LPO, AKA Leading Seaman. While passing out the day's job assignments, I was told "f@#k no" by one of the new seaman. I was shocked to say the least. I went to the 1st LT, a TMCS, and informed him of my situation. He told me in no uncertain terms to take said individual to the back of the work barge and show him the error of his ways. I did so, physically. The young man never questioned me again.
Now, before everyone jumps on me, let me give you my opinion on this matter. This was the late '70s. We were still in the Viet Nam mind set. However; when did the military go from being a gung ho military organization to a job? "Ask him what's wrong". Really?! When you're at 400ft and there's a fire in the Torpedo Room, or you're someplace where people are shooting at you are you really going to take no as an answer?? Or are you going to kick him in his ass, and get him motivated to move in the right direction? I spent 20 years in the Submarine Force and I've seen people come and go. And the ones that went were sent haze gray and underway on surface ships. Which, BTW, was the same as failing. Next time someone tells a senior NCO he doesn't want to do something, point out that the contract he signed doesn't say anything about liking it. He (or she) doesn't have to like it. They just have to do it. STS1(SS) USN, Ret
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SSG(P) D. Wright Downs
SSG(P) D. Wright Downs
4 mo
SPC Lee Taylor - Having a Soldier report to my office is not a tea party. It is a learning session, an education. He would learn the consequences of the error of his ways. He would learn that I am not afraid to do paperwork and if I do that paper work what it means for him in the long run.
The First offense is a learning experience…anyone and everyone can screw up. The SECOND time, the Soldier is a slow learner. The THIRD time, he is a FOOL and I suffer Fools poorly. He will be at the corner of Market and Main in his home town as fast as I can get him there. And, having gone into it knowing the results of his errors will determine how he is discharged from service. Not all discharges are BCD. There are others. There are reasons for dismissal that can be used that aren’t going to kill his future employment.
You mentioned his employment by an employer with a government contract. As a civilian working for the Federal government, I have seen some of those companies with Federal contracts and they have enough screwups on payroll w/o adding another inept person who had been in the military and was a screw up there, too. I certainly would have looked at things a bit differently back in the day.
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SPC Lee Taylor
SPC Lee Taylor
4 mo
Never been that way for me in my life. I someone else did something wrong that I got blamed for and I was in the old mans office getting an AR-15. Later that day someone above me found out what happened and who did what I got the AR-15 for. The old man was mad about having to tear up the AR-15. And a dozen others were pissed off at me cause of what happened.
If a person does not know that they do not back talk someone over them giving them at order then ur forever going to be pandering to an idiot that never should have been in the military.
With what I said it gets the message across right now and if they do not understand that they are in trouble they will never GET IT!!
My 1st, 2nd, and 3rd will be hard on him. 2nd time he get the max punishment he can get and not get thrown out. But the message will be put in his file that the next time he is gone. If he wants to get out I am making that a really hard way for him to go. U are making it seem to him that So what this is nothing.
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SSG(P) D. Wright Downs
SSG(P) D. Wright Downs
7 d
SPC Lee Taylor - You have never been in my my office for a ‘sit to.’ You do not know what it is like. I disagree that I am making it seem “so what, this is nothing.” To be called into my office was a big thing. Period. It was common knowledge that 'The S Had Hit The Fan.' I was not having a social chat. I was not making a party menu. The first time in was, in all but one instance, the Only time a soldier had to be there. Perhaps I had quick learners. A friend of one of my people referred to me as a Bitch, when I walked by and my Soldier said to him, “She may be a bitch but she is the fairest Bitch you will ever see.” Put a smile on my face. Yes, I was fair and to be a fair NCO with discipline was a warm fuzzy in my man’s Army. They knew when they screwed up and knew they would be called on it. I would be fair in my treatment of the offense. They would not get a BCD or being late for a formation. I expected reasons and didn’t accept excuses.
This was before the stress cards. This was in the Cold War in Europe where we had terrorits and demonstrators hanging outside our gates and we were armed guards on school buses in addition to our regular duties. I was assigned to Commands that had nukes. We did not fool around with misfits because we couldn’t afford them.
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SPC Lee Taylor
SPC Lee Taylor
7 d
SSG(P) D. Wright Downs - My Dad was a CW2 and a lifer of two wars. So KID I will give u a Hint and see if u can figure it out. the Wars my dad was in Started with a K and V. I was Alive during one of them and old enough to know where in the world he was and if I had heard about how they were being treated when they came back I would have punched the Aholes below the waist in nice tender spots cause until I was half way through 8th grade I was well below five foot. Mom and dad protected us when we were young about what dad and other soldiers were being treated like. And during that time when we lived in a place for more than three months the bully to my mom and us kids started. So the time period ur talking about I say So What. I know when it was and what happened and I was forced to be at war from Ahole kids I never talked to or about. I had a dad that loved playing Baseball and was on several Championship Softball teams and could throw u out from rover to 1st and never go above shoulder high or touch the ground. 3rd time he did it the 1st baseman told him to quit it it hurt to much. Plus when in Nam the camp he was in Took fire and he went to that side of camp and threw a grande. They measured it off and he threw it 300 ft. The few times my 4 brothers or I needed our rear ends dusted thats the arm that dusted them.
And I was one when I was in that I was put in charge of people above my rank, flown to training that the lowest rank that was supposed to be there was someone of ur rank and I turned down even the possibility to be offered West Point because of my scores and when I went in I could Do more than most Infantry just from my 1st college degree and I could physically out 98% of those in the military. Going into the Army I had calibrated my Thumb and could in a min. or two tell u how many board or cord of wood was standing, could ID many trees bushes etc by leaf twig etc, could do flow rates, survey, run a compass, use USGS maps, and read Ariel Photos and tell u how big things were, type trees tell u how tall and tell u how many cord/bf was standing. I knew what was edible and knew how to catch things to eat and butcher and start my own fire. And I am pretty sure I have been in colder weather than u have ever been in and even tho this was not when I was in the coldest weather I likely saw colder weather than u by the time I was 4. U want to Claim to have played the game. Does not scare me. Hell They moved an idiot like u because of what was brought up about them. And I was the person that brought that up to command above me and it was ASKED of me to not ruin two careers. I knew what that meant and most of my time in I was put in jobs well above my rank and put in for things just for being me and laughing inside at them when I asked them why was I put up for this or that. Every time I was told its because I was a Strack troop. And I have lived through being less than 10 yds from two baby moose and having their mom pop up between us and less than 5 yards from me when I was one of my training runs and another time I picked up another moose jogging partner when I was out on a 10k run at -30 by the airfield and another time on a 10k training run I was 30yds from 30 buffalo. I have had bullies I never talked to or about pull knives on me, gangs surround me I never ran and you do not scare me and well I stand by what I have said. Oh and the worst I ever placed in a PT run was 3rd, once. I did the whole run backwards. And in PT tests they asked Me if I ran track when I came in 1st and I said yeah but I am out of shape and asked them what my time was and all they would tell me is Under 10 min. In black combat boots and fatigues.
And Going to state in five sports at least once and the National Jr. Olympics in two and could afford to go in one. When people tried to intimidate me it was my job to make them hurt. And the vast majority of the time I beat them. And I have worked out with some of the most talented people in the American Sports world. I know how to tell who is good and not. So go sit on it. As I said I stand by what I have stated. Oh and I am the oldest of five kids all boys that each and everyone of us were all boy and fought a fair amount and the shit the civilian world put me through for being a military dependent and nothing else what u have is nothing I have seen worse. I have seen more and DONE more. Now I have 6 degrees and I do not do anything as a whim if I act its to put things down perm.
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