Professional Development
Professional Development
Posted on Jun 29, 2021
Is a CSM also wrong if they start publicly chewing out a LT, and the LT then locks up the CSM?
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Edit:
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
I have received a lot of feedback and discussion, which is awesome!!! This was intended for a professional development discussion amongst senior leaders, and a whole bunch have chimed in, so thank you very much for that!
I think the scenario I was picturing in my head is a bit different than what others were picturing, but that is great, I left it a bit vague on purpose to get a wider array of responses and experiences.
Not that there has been a bit of discussion, here is kind of what I was picturing....
CSM is posted up someplace, kind of surveying things. A short distance (call it 25 feet) away, a SPC walks past an LT, renders a smart salute, accompanied by the greeting of the day, and the LT blows him off. SPC does what he is supposed to do, continues on for 6 paces, drops his salute, and carries on with life. CSM, however, is not going to let this go. In my experience, he also is not about to run after the LT to have a "private conversation." So, CSM bellows out for the LT, in the way that only CSMs can, and politely asks for the LT to come over. Something along the lines of "Hey, Lieutenant Smith, can I have a word?" The LT, now pissed off, stalks over to the CSM and before the CSM can even salute, the LT tells the CSM how important and busy he is, and the CSM should know better than to interrupt the LT.
At this point, the CSM, in my opinion, would be better served to bring the discussion *more* private, by asking the LT to step inside, or if he is "too busy" to come see him and the LTC at 1700. But in my experience, many CSMs would feel the need to be heard, and would take measures to do so.
That was the situation in my head. And I think most of your answers have addressed it in some manner or other.
Again, I appreciate the discussion. And for those who answered early and move on, I encourage you to read through some other responses. The entire intent was professional development, after all! (Even for those old codgers who have forgotten more about professionalism than I will ever know, we can all still keep growing!)
Thanks again!!!
Professional Development question for the senior leaders:
I am sure we have all seen, or at least read a couple stories of the CSM chewing out a young LT when the LT decides to assert rank and lock up the CSM. Inevitably these stories end with the young LT being called onto the BC's carpet (or sometimes the CG) and ripped a new one while the CSM looks on smugly.
And we all chuckle at the important life lesson the young LT learned about the difference between rank and authority.
But I got to thinking...........
If things get to the point where that LT is feeling disrespected, belittled, and/or intentionally intimidated, isn't the CSM already in the wrong? Especially if this is in front of troops? I absolutely understand the difference between rank and authority, but shouldn't that CSM be setting the example of tact and respect (s)he expects their Soldiers to follow? Should we be stopping to wonder what is that CSM's major malfunction is, such that they felt the need to publicly disrespect a Commissioned Officer?
In all of the stories I have read about this situation, I don't remember that ever being discussed. So.... discuss....
(Or don't).
EDIT: Admins changed the topic to "who is in the wrong." This is less a question of who is wrong. I am working off the assumption that the CSM is not lighting up the LT for no reason, so the LT is assumed to be in the wrong here. It is a question of, is not the CSM ALSO wrong?
Posted in these groups: 
Professional Development
Respect
Professional Development Respect
Edited 2 y ago
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 130
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I have actually never seen or even heard of a CSM chewing up a junior leader in front of Soldiers. I've definitely seen a few say, "Hey LT, come over for a minute" and have a mentorship moment with them
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TSgt Shawn Qualley
I saw it once in Germany. A Captain wanted a white board that was being used by a CMS. He told her she could not have it, but she had some civilians take it on a weekend. Well, when the chief came to working on Monday it hit the fan. He walked into her office shut the door and 10 min later walked out with his white board. She came out of her office and went to the bathroom and you could tell she had been crying. Not sure what he said to her but I bet she gained a new respect for CMS.
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TSgt (Join to see)
SSG Douglas Espinosa - You state "Majority of times all I saw was a professional CSM taking a young LT to the side and mentor the young Officer"
Have you yet realized the other disrespectful times it was just an E9.
Have you yet realized the other disrespectful times it was just an E9.
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SGT M C
TSgt Shawn Qualley - Well now it just goes to prove that Saying there is no difference between a horse chestnut and a chestnut horse doesn't make it so!
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TSgt David Marti
TSgt Shawn Qualley
I seem to recall a similar result. Only it was with a full service dress inspection on a Saturday morning for all Comm Center personnel. That only happened once!
I seem to recall a similar result. Only it was with a full service dress inspection on a Saturday morning for all Comm Center personnel. That only happened once!
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Maybe because I grew up with a Master Sergeant Father, but there is a time and place to make corrections and in front of a junior officers subordinates or peers is not one of them. I have taken my battalion commander aside and pointed this out to him, he had a bad habit of lighting up Junior leaders in front of the troops. That one turned out OK, he did recognize that it wasn't professional and tried to correct that behavior. I have a lot of respect for that action.
If I had seen the CSM do the same thing, I would have corrected him also. If he wanted to give me crap about it, I would have took it up with his Boss, the BNCO. There are idiots at every rank, correcting bad behavior is part of your job.
If I had seen the CSM do the same thing, I would have corrected him also. If he wanted to give me crap about it, I would have took it up with his Boss, the BNCO. There are idiots at every rank, correcting bad behavior is part of your job.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SFC Charles McVey Sr. - I thought you were one old Private there for a minute ;^).
It's hard to correct superiors and it doesn't always work out. Still, if you don't make the effort, you aren't doing your job and they will continue to make the same mistake.
My worst experience correcting a superior came about because of a qualification range. One of my LT's was the Ranger Officer, so I stopped in to check on him since it was his first experience in a Battalion position. As soon as I hit the range, I knew he was in trouble. The Battalion had scheduled a weapons qualification that was impossible to do one the range assigned. I walked up to the LT just as part of the S3 staff were telling him to just fill it the range cards and sign them. I did not correct them in private and I was loud, I was extremely pissed off. They were instructing my Lt to commit an illegal act and I had paper qualification drills. Shortly after, I was braced by the O-4 S3 himself, which also got loud, possibly profane and was in public. I dragged him before the BN Commander and stated my case. There was a lot of tap dancing around, claiming I had misunderstood, I frankly went in with my bars unpinned because I didn't think the BNCO was support me. He did finally support my position, maybe partly because if he tried a field grade article 15 I would have requested a court martial and to relieve me for cause it would have went to the Brigade Commander.
The stupid thing about it was the we were not required to meet the standard they had scheduled and the range assigned was more than adequate to fire our requirement. I did point that out also.
It's hard to correct superiors and it doesn't always work out. Still, if you don't make the effort, you aren't doing your job and they will continue to make the same mistake.
My worst experience correcting a superior came about because of a qualification range. One of my LT's was the Ranger Officer, so I stopped in to check on him since it was his first experience in a Battalion position. As soon as I hit the range, I knew he was in trouble. The Battalion had scheduled a weapons qualification that was impossible to do one the range assigned. I walked up to the LT just as part of the S3 staff were telling him to just fill it the range cards and sign them. I did not correct them in private and I was loud, I was extremely pissed off. They were instructing my Lt to commit an illegal act and I had paper qualification drills. Shortly after, I was braced by the O-4 S3 himself, which also got loud, possibly profane and was in public. I dragged him before the BN Commander and stated my case. There was a lot of tap dancing around, claiming I had misunderstood, I frankly went in with my bars unpinned because I didn't think the BNCO was support me. He did finally support my position, maybe partly because if he tried a field grade article 15 I would have requested a court martial and to relieve me for cause it would have went to the Brigade Commander.
The stupid thing about it was the we were not required to meet the standard they had scheduled and the range assigned was more than adequate to fire our requirement. I did point that out also.
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SFC Charles McVey Sr.
CPT Lawrence Cable - Try being the Range Safety NCO for your MP Brigade and find out that the Range Officer pulled from all of the 2LT'S in the BDE had just finished MP Officer Basic Course and arrived in the BDE. He knw nothing about running a Range so I ended up Training him as well as Maintaining then the
Range Safety, and here comes the BDE CMDR and CSM, to observe this BDE Qualification, and the poor young 2LT is totally lost. By the I was able to get two more NCO's on the Range to Assist me, and I snagged the CSM to let him know what was going on, he managed to keep the BDE COMDR away from the poor LT until I could brief him and provide back up in case he got lost which he had twice. That was one of the worse two weeks I ever had on a Range.
Range Safety, and here comes the BDE CMDR and CSM, to observe this BDE Qualification, and the poor young 2LT is totally lost. By the I was able to get two more NCO's on the Range to Assist me, and I snagged the CSM to let him know what was going on, he managed to keep the BDE COMDR away from the poor LT until I could brief him and provide back up in case he got lost which he had twice. That was one of the worse two weeks I ever had on a Range.
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1LT William Clardy
But the version depicting you as a centenarian private would sound so much better in the retelling, SFC Charles McVey Sr.! ;-)
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In situations like this that I encountered the CSM ask the Lt to step into his office or a nearby vacant room and when the door reopened the Lt was a changed man in all but 1 instance, In that one instance they came out together and proceeded directly to the Commanders office and then the Lt came out a Changed man......
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1LT William Clardy
Your role as commander does not preempt the general authority of officers and NCOs to make spot corrections, CPT Lawrence Cable.
If a CSM makes an on-the-spot correction of one of your soldiers, there are only two reasons he would even bring the matter to your attention: as a professional courtesy or out of concern that the correction may need command reinforcement to be effective. Most of the time, it's perfectly reasonable for the CSM to make a judgement call that the shenanigans involved don't merit any further attention. All that applies even when the correctee is one of your officers.
If a CSM makes an on-the-spot correction of one of your soldiers, there are only two reasons he would even bring the matter to your attention: as a professional courtesy or out of concern that the correction may need command reinforcement to be effective. Most of the time, it's perfectly reasonable for the CSM to make a judgement call that the shenanigans involved don't merit any further attention. All that applies even when the correctee is one of your officers.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
1LT William Clardy - There is a distinct difference in a spot correct and locking someone heels up in front of that soldiers subordinates. I have no issue with a senior NCO or Officer correcting a young LT, but only in the proper context. That context means not screaming at some Butter Bar in front of troops. If it is something that serious, it absolutely need to be brought to the CO. If I saw Lt. "Smith" chewing out some PFC in front of his squad, I would have the same conversation with that LT. The exception I do make is for safety violations, which need to be handled immediately and everyone needs to know why.
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1LT William Clardy
Apologies for my misunderstanding, CPT Lawrence Cable.
I had thought you were saying that a CSM should bring an errant LT to you for correction instead of correcting him on the spot and had assumed that publicly reaming said LT was still going to be wrong regardless of whether or not the CSM involved you in the discussion. Totally missed the intended nuance of it being an "either-or" comparison.
I had thought you were saying that a CSM should bring an errant LT to you for correction instead of correcting him on the spot and had assumed that publicly reaming said LT was still going to be wrong regardless of whether or not the CSM involved you in the discussion. Totally missed the intended nuance of it being an "either-or" comparison.
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SSG Willis Baker
The impact of a CSM making a point at that precise moment is lost and therefore meaningless after the fact if he has to stop and take the LT to his office.
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