Professionalism
Professionalism
Posted on Nov 27, 2014
Does Hollering at Service Members in Basic Training foster professionalism?
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Sometimes the military seems to take on traits of a dysfunctional family. We were hollered at when we were new, so now we holler at the new Service members. Is there any shred of evidence that hollering at new Service Members makes them better prepared for anything, or do we just do it because that's the way it has always been done?
Basic Combat Training (BCT)
Basic Military Training
Professionalism
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 238
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No. It fosters resilience. It fosters the ability to deal with stress, which is something many new recruits haven't experienced before, but they are about to enter a profession where it is a necessary part of the chaos that is war. If we were in the business of making inflatable bouncy houses, this might be an issue...but we're not. Yell all the time...no. Induce stress without physically harming someone. That's challenging. You aren't going to get it through classes about how to deal with stress. You get resilience from pain, from deprivation, from disease and heartache and blood and sweat and tears. Resilience doesn't come from happiness or butterflies or unicorns. It comes from the fire that forges steel into something useful. Does it make one professional, no. We are in a business where we kill people for a living. We...kill...people. By blowing them into smaller chunks, by ripping holes in their bodies with high velocity rounds, by choking them to death with our bare hands at times. If you can't deal with the stress induced at basic training, you've made a horrible life decision...and maybe you'll find that out before you have to make a significant choice on a battlefield somewhere.
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SPC Randall PeQueen
I wanted people weeded OUT when I was in. While simply yelling at them doesn't necessarily weed the pussies out, it does get rid of those who think they're above the unit. There will always be those guys but if yelling at them separates them away early ten that's a good thing. COL, that was a better answer than I could have explained. Not sure what Kelsey meant by his answer.
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SFC William Linnell
Sir!!! Most expertly said. But unfortunately it's becoming a daycare service of NOT hurting their sensitivities and making them feel "special". I can say this with certainty because I was at Knox as an Instructor/Tank Commander. And those type of "orders" came down from the BDE CDR.
They consider it mass punishment wrong for only 1 Pvt screwing up. Can't make them drop bc that's hazing. DS's were suppose to eat at the same tables with their Pvt's so that they would feel more comfortable around the DS and make them approachable. If you had fat bodies, no longer can you tell them only main line food, no soda no desert. CAKE FOR EVERYONE. At the "designated" smoke shacks, those had to be wrapped in a green material so the Pvt who smoked couldn't see Active Duty smoking cause that's hazing. As a TC/Instructor we couldn't drink gatorade/powerade in front of them bc that was a form of tormenting (?). Since 19K is OSUT, after what is considered basic, they were to have weekend liberty passes, drink if over 21 and smoke. Before I PCSd for the Combat Advisor mission, if a Pvt decided somewhere along the line that they didn't want to be there, They made a written statement and they didn't train. They were in attendance in ALL classes and events but didn't participate in training. And no one could say jack to them. And everyone keeps their cell phones.
Basic was the termination of civilianhood turning you into a basic Soldier. Now its just so pussified. Weak constitutions. Not building any toughness. Not prepared for the unit afterwards.
They consider it mass punishment wrong for only 1 Pvt screwing up. Can't make them drop bc that's hazing. DS's were suppose to eat at the same tables with their Pvt's so that they would feel more comfortable around the DS and make them approachable. If you had fat bodies, no longer can you tell them only main line food, no soda no desert. CAKE FOR EVERYONE. At the "designated" smoke shacks, those had to be wrapped in a green material so the Pvt who smoked couldn't see Active Duty smoking cause that's hazing. As a TC/Instructor we couldn't drink gatorade/powerade in front of them bc that was a form of tormenting (?). Since 19K is OSUT, after what is considered basic, they were to have weekend liberty passes, drink if over 21 and smoke. Before I PCSd for the Combat Advisor mission, if a Pvt decided somewhere along the line that they didn't want to be there, They made a written statement and they didn't train. They were in attendance in ALL classes and events but didn't participate in training. And no one could say jack to them. And everyone keeps their cell phones.
Basic was the termination of civilianhood turning you into a basic Soldier. Now its just so pussified. Weak constitutions. Not building any toughness. Not prepared for the unit afterwards.
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SSG Gibbs,
The suicide rate and rates of UCMJs is up which started prior to 9-11 and I would submit a direct result of the changes in basic recruit training but also because the changes in society in general.
We give trophy's and medals to everyone now just for participating and don't reward superior effort. Its ok to lose.
We are texting and not talking in person which damages our ability to communicate and understand human interactions. No yelling, no arguments, no stress.
And we don't discipline children anymore, I don't mean hit or beat, I mean hold accountable for their actions.
So against these new norms of non conflict tell me how we determine a recruits ability to handle stress if we don't stress them in training? Yelling is a proven way to break down barriers, it causes stress often never experienced before and helps the instructors to take control of the recruits. Yelling is an art form and I should have earned an Oscar award from Hollywood for many of my performances. The pitch, volume, tone and word selection helps to break down barriers and is not just being mean or abusive.
Suicide can be a result of a character, emotional or mental weakness, an inability to deal with a problem or to see a solution. To stop suicide in the services I think we need better leadership at the squad level and to stress recruits beyond anything they have ever faced before. Push recruits physically and mentally to the breaking point and then take them one step beyond. Yelling is a very simple and effective way of doing that initially until the recruit no longer stresses over a few loud words and then you move on to something else.
You say you were used to being treated like crap before you joined, Well I as a instructor or leader need to know you had a difficult childhood and how it affects your thinking and ability to serve as part of a team. Yelling will affect you differently and I will see that.
Its not about professionalism, its about discipline.
The suicide rate and rates of UCMJs is up which started prior to 9-11 and I would submit a direct result of the changes in basic recruit training but also because the changes in society in general.
We give trophy's and medals to everyone now just for participating and don't reward superior effort. Its ok to lose.
We are texting and not talking in person which damages our ability to communicate and understand human interactions. No yelling, no arguments, no stress.
And we don't discipline children anymore, I don't mean hit or beat, I mean hold accountable for their actions.
So against these new norms of non conflict tell me how we determine a recruits ability to handle stress if we don't stress them in training? Yelling is a proven way to break down barriers, it causes stress often never experienced before and helps the instructors to take control of the recruits. Yelling is an art form and I should have earned an Oscar award from Hollywood for many of my performances. The pitch, volume, tone and word selection helps to break down barriers and is not just being mean or abusive.
Suicide can be a result of a character, emotional or mental weakness, an inability to deal with a problem or to see a solution. To stop suicide in the services I think we need better leadership at the squad level and to stress recruits beyond anything they have ever faced before. Push recruits physically and mentally to the breaking point and then take them one step beyond. Yelling is a very simple and effective way of doing that initially until the recruit no longer stresses over a few loud words and then you move on to something else.
You say you were used to being treated like crap before you joined, Well I as a instructor or leader need to know you had a difficult childhood and how it affects your thinking and ability to serve as part of a team. Yelling will affect you differently and I will see that.
Its not about professionalism, its about discipline.
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SPC John Bush
From a long time out E-4. That is exactly the reason I got out. I enlisted in 74 at the end of Vietnam. The Army at that time was not the Army I grew up with, my father retired after service in 3 wars. There was very little discipline, only slightly more in my unit because it as an MP unit and we took pride in our duties as well as well as our presentation of person. Basic training was a breeze, only had to do push-ups twice and the yelling? My mother could do better and my dad, you didn’t want him to get to that point.
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SPC Patricia K. (Williams) Elliott
SPC John Bush - Sorry I disagree with your answer!! I came in in 73 and while I was in basic at Ft. McClellan, my DS was a champion at yelling and I was terrified of her!! Basic training taught me to be strong and resilent in the face of diversity. Isn't that what basic is for?
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SSgt Kim Lee
I agree, I just want to stress the fact that suicide “can” be a result of character, weakness or inability to cope; as you mentioned, but that is not the general thesis of the problem. These new generations need to be yelled at; simply because they have no discipline, I don’t think it’s fair to associate it to suicide though. Per standard, science or stats, it’s not these little entitled assholes that are increasing our suicide rates. Those of us who have struggled and those we have lost to suicide - aren’t selfish, weak or entitled to trophies; our brains are just become sick or injured, we are not broken. I think people forget that, because mental health is constantly stigmatized in the military.
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SFC William Linnell
I can only express from my experience. Suicide isn't always cut n dry. For some it's a factor that they see as no solution, their fked. Case in point. New Pvt. One of the most highspeed Soldiers I've worked with. Always happy, smiling, joking, busting ass working, takes initiative. Going to be a great NCO. Then one day he didn't show up for work. Come to find out his dad had a General POA and bought $250,000 of land in his name and clearly fked him. Leaving him responsible to pay for the loan but dear ole dad owning the land.
Also first hand knowledge. The Army is NOT prepared to handle the load of Soldiers that has been to combat, actually slung bullets at the enemy, really not for those with multiple tours. They are so understrength, inadequate it's embarrassing. For an example, a small Post like Polk, they had at the hospital only 4 counselors for a few thousand Soldiers. Because of this, I believe strongly, that is most of the reason for the uptick in suicides during and after this 20 years of war we been in. Soldiers lack of proper counseling, pill pushing and the feeling of being pushed along. I felt the same way. But no thoughts of suicide.
Also first hand knowledge. The Army is NOT prepared to handle the load of Soldiers that has been to combat, actually slung bullets at the enemy, really not for those with multiple tours. They are so understrength, inadequate it's embarrassing. For an example, a small Post like Polk, they had at the hospital only 4 counselors for a few thousand Soldiers. Because of this, I believe strongly, that is most of the reason for the uptick in suicides during and after this 20 years of war we been in. Soldiers lack of proper counseling, pill pushing and the feeling of being pushed along. I felt the same way. But no thoughts of suicide.
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OF COURSE IT DOES! ARE YOU CRAZY? WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM? WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TALKING TO?
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CMSgt (Join to see)
SSG Tim Everett
I am offended by your use of "knucklehead". They didn't ask to be born knuckleheads.
((womp womp))
:)
I am offended by your use of "knucklehead". They didn't ask to be born knuckleheads.
((womp womp))
:)
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SGM Mikel Dawson
Who ever this officer is who down voted needs to re-examine himself. And no explanation, typical hiding behind the keyboard. SSG Robert Burns, you didn't stress him at some time did you?
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