Professionalism
Professionalism
Posted on Mar 30, 2014
Regardless of what regulations may or may not say regarding the issue of shaving, does being unshaven reflect an unprofessional appearance?
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Just curious as to popular opinion especially in light of the argument that not shaving is unprofessional.
Professionalism
Standards
Shaving
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 30
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Absolutely not. General Lee, General Grant, the SOF operators who won the initial ground war in OEF all were bearded. The no beard nonsense came from the 1950s when men took their hats off inside, let women enter vehicles first and leave last, basically the leave it to beaver era.<br><br>There's no logical reasoning, other than CSMisms of I don't like it (AKA un-professionalism) to prevent a nice trimmed beard. Sikhs have proven the gas mask reason as not true.<br>
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SGT Gabriel Brown
MSGT, with all due respect, you’re taking a very ad hominem approach here, and your key not points are off base and inaccurate. Let’s start from the bottom and work our way up, shall we?
“...y’all are a bunch of whiny, little sissy bitches that want to adapt a once proud and honored life....” Correct me if I’m wrong, but these “sissy bitches” have been fighting the longest war in American history. Without a draft, all volunteer. Hardly sounds like botched to me. As far as adapting, well, the American military has rocked beards far longer than it hasn’t throughout that time honored history.
“You know why we are no longer feared....” Yes. Because we always play by the damn rules, enstated by armchair fuckers that aren’t on the ground and can’t control what is seen off of the battlefield, instead of unleashing our warfighters to do what they do best. Because the army (been in the infantry of both branches) has a bad habit of squashing ferocity for PC reasons. Because they use terms like “battle buddy” like a 3rd grader instead of “battle brother” like a damn warrior. And don’t get me started on the cheapening of the title “warrior”.
“Hey, you already worked your way out of shining boots and ironing your uniform...” C’mon MSGT. Unless you’re a super POG with no combat experience, then there’s no way that you wouldn’t know that black is not a naturally occurring color in nature (except by fire), not is it a color that occurs in both woodland as well as desert theaters. It makes far more sense to incorporate Brown over black as it solves those camouflage issues, and makes our warfighters harder to kill. Pressing the uniforms was done away with as doing so (with starch, which is the only way to do it right) causes issues with our now advanced optics. There are plenty of ways to instill discipline that don’t involve boots and uniforms. Contrary to every old school vets belief, eliminating that for tactical reasons is not causing a bunch of lack of discipline. The Marine Corps has a great many creative ways to instill discipline, and they do it quite effectively. The army could take a page or two from them if they are that concerned (and they should be).
The bottom line is that if you look out across the rolling hills of Arlington, I’ll bet you couldn’t tell me who had sleeve tattoos or wore a beard. Beards can be done properly, but would require standards that leadership would have to enforce. It’s that simple.
In closing, you’re argument is poorly articulated, as we have a proud history of being professional with beards far longer than without. In fact, individuals like yourself are the ones who “adapted” that proud and professional appearance, not us. Additionally, I don’t think you’re giving the OIF/OEF soldiers and Marines the credit and respect that they are due. This much I know: when push comes to shove, and you have the full brunt of the US Army and the US Marine Corps bearing down on you’re location, I guarantee that fear isn’t in your heart. Generation Kill is the greatest generation of the 21st century bar none.
“...y’all are a bunch of whiny, little sissy bitches that want to adapt a once proud and honored life....” Correct me if I’m wrong, but these “sissy bitches” have been fighting the longest war in American history. Without a draft, all volunteer. Hardly sounds like botched to me. As far as adapting, well, the American military has rocked beards far longer than it hasn’t throughout that time honored history.
“You know why we are no longer feared....” Yes. Because we always play by the damn rules, enstated by armchair fuckers that aren’t on the ground and can’t control what is seen off of the battlefield, instead of unleashing our warfighters to do what they do best. Because the army (been in the infantry of both branches) has a bad habit of squashing ferocity for PC reasons. Because they use terms like “battle buddy” like a 3rd grader instead of “battle brother” like a damn warrior. And don’t get me started on the cheapening of the title “warrior”.
“Hey, you already worked your way out of shining boots and ironing your uniform...” C’mon MSGT. Unless you’re a super POG with no combat experience, then there’s no way that you wouldn’t know that black is not a naturally occurring color in nature (except by fire), not is it a color that occurs in both woodland as well as desert theaters. It makes far more sense to incorporate Brown over black as it solves those camouflage issues, and makes our warfighters harder to kill. Pressing the uniforms was done away with as doing so (with starch, which is the only way to do it right) causes issues with our now advanced optics. There are plenty of ways to instill discipline that don’t involve boots and uniforms. Contrary to every old school vets belief, eliminating that for tactical reasons is not causing a bunch of lack of discipline. The Marine Corps has a great many creative ways to instill discipline, and they do it quite effectively. The army could take a page or two from them if they are that concerned (and they should be).
The bottom line is that if you look out across the rolling hills of Arlington, I’ll bet you couldn’t tell me who had sleeve tattoos or wore a beard. Beards can be done properly, but would require standards that leadership would have to enforce. It’s that simple.
In closing, you’re argument is poorly articulated, as we have a proud history of being professional with beards far longer than without. In fact, individuals like yourself are the ones who “adapted” that proud and professional appearance, not us. Additionally, I don’t think you’re giving the OIF/OEF soldiers and Marines the credit and respect that they are due. This much I know: when push comes to shove, and you have the full brunt of the US Army and the US Marine Corps bearing down on you’re location, I guarantee that fear isn’t in your heart. Generation Kill is the greatest generation of the 21st century bar none.
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SGT Gabriel Brown
Corrections: key note* not key not
Hardly sounds like bitches* not botches.
Nor is it a color* not “not is it a color”
...bearing down on your* not you’re
...guarantee that fear is* in your heart. Not isn’t
Hardly sounds like bitches* not botches.
Nor is it a color* not “not is it a color”
...bearing down on your* not you’re
...guarantee that fear is* in your heart. Not isn’t
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It should be allowed in a daily uniform as long as it is neatly trimmed and kept.
Mandatory to shave while wearing a dress uniform? That would would reasonable.
We would have to shave in the field/deployment where running water or bathrooms weren't available. I'm medical so I'll take this stance: Voluntarily introducing fresh cuts and pathways to enter the body in a environment less than hygienic invites the possibility and susceptibility to infection and/or disease. Shaving should be discouraged in these environments.
In a daily garrison setting, let them grow it out, neatly, unless they are attending any function where a dress uniform will be worn.
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SSgt Tim Fink
Good luck with the neatly trimmed idea. I would not want to be an NCO and have to deal with the beard issue. There will be plenty of troops pushing the limits daily on beard length. It will be a constant battle, which takes away from important tasks that enhance the mission.
There is no need for beards in the conventional forces of the military. I don’t want to hear some whiny BS about morale. If the fact you can’t have a beard makes you not want to serve, then don’t. Go be a hipster civilian. That’s a childish attitude. Take your little red wagon and go home.
There is no need for beards in the conventional forces of the military. I don’t want to hear some whiny BS about morale. If the fact you can’t have a beard makes you not want to serve, then don’t. Go be a hipster civilian. That’s a childish attitude. Take your little red wagon and go home.
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Sgt Dale Briggs
Don’t know, but just a guess being clean shaven looks tight, bearded where do you go? Can you have a beard like ZZ Top? Neatly trimmed? You look like a hippie? My guess is they think it’s parallel to discipline. SF guys have long hair and beards and they’re top of the line, I’ve never had a 1st Sgt that his head wasn’t red from scraping his scalp, it brings him joy to see skin headed troops clean shaven, and gives him a major woody.
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SSG John Jensen
Everybody deals with haircuts all the time, what would be so hard with adding a beard
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Generally you hear the gas mask argument, but really, that's as simple as "don't have a beard in an NBC environment". There's no reason why some obscure, likely never going to happen scenario should impact your day to day life. I mean, we COULD have to use our masks, sure, but we also COULD have to fight off alien land sharks..
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SSG Joseph VanDyck
I wear multiple types of respirators in my civilian career, from Delta suits to PAPR's to half masks. I use both positive pressure and negative pressure respirators. My beard does not impact their proper usage or my safety when using them.
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