Standards
Standards
Posted on Jun 27, 2019
How would you handle a double standard or disregard for Army Regulation?
7.87K
118
47
16
16
0
I was approached by Soldier in my office with the question, “ Are we allowed to used tobacco products inside the building?” I told the no not at all for any reason. He then stated “ Well how come everyone dips inside the motorpool, inside the offices, even the LTC and CSM dip in the building and in meetings in front of everyone?” I was speechless for a moment because I also knew this to be true and the regulation: Army Regulation (AR) 600-63, Army Health Promotion, paragraph 7-3a, 20 SEP 2009, states: "Tobacco use is prohibited in all DA-occupied workplaces except for designated smoking areas, as authorized by Department of Defense Instruction 1010.15. What could I tell him if the leadership doesn’t follow the regulation. So I told him two wrongs don’t make a right and to follow the regulation and make an on the spot correction to whomever violates the regulation. Sounds like good sound advice right? Well the Soldier took it to heart and was spot checking anyone in violation and when he did this to a senior leader, he was told to “check down, not up” and walked away with his dip cup on hand. So seeing that there is a disregard for the regulation the soldier started vaping in the office. When told he could not do it he answered saying “ Command uses tobacco in the building and doesn’t care about the regulation so I won’t either.” What are your takes on this seeing that the regulation is posted on the doors of all DOD buildings and getting this double standard corrected?
Professionalism
Standards
NCOs
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 24
18
18
0
First, good on the troop for asking a senior NCO about the standard and pointing out a discrepancy that can cause issues with perception and enforcement of standards .
Discretion is the better part of valor sometimes though and if senior leaders are doing stupid crap that impact perceptions, I found engaging them in a public forum for anything that isn't a threat to life and limb often results in the reaction you mentioned. Infractions like you mentioned are better handled with an office call and a private discussion. It does two things, it allows the offender to consider your points in a neutral environment without ruffling egos and provides for discussion either heated or rational. You'll find your success rate on subordinate to senior leader corrections will vastly increase.
Since the troop approached you for guidance and you did the research in my humble opinion you own the correction now. Get on the 1SGs calendar or open door and involve them. Then follow through as needed up through the NCO support channel.
In any case the troop needs to follow the regulation and orders and on the spot corrections regardless of what anyone else is doing, as you pursue the correction and work to make changes in the senior leaders actions.
This is a great example of the indiscipline being like a crack in the windshield analogy. If you let it go it spiders out to all aspects of the unit until the whole thing is broken.
Discretion is the better part of valor sometimes though and if senior leaders are doing stupid crap that impact perceptions, I found engaging them in a public forum for anything that isn't a threat to life and limb often results in the reaction you mentioned. Infractions like you mentioned are better handled with an office call and a private discussion. It does two things, it allows the offender to consider your points in a neutral environment without ruffling egos and provides for discussion either heated or rational. You'll find your success rate on subordinate to senior leader corrections will vastly increase.
Since the troop approached you for guidance and you did the research in my humble opinion you own the correction now. Get on the 1SGs calendar or open door and involve them. Then follow through as needed up through the NCO support channel.
In any case the troop needs to follow the regulation and orders and on the spot corrections regardless of what anyone else is doing, as you pursue the correction and work to make changes in the senior leaders actions.
This is a great example of the indiscipline being like a crack in the windshield analogy. If you let it go it spiders out to all aspects of the unit until the whole thing is broken.
(18)
(0)
9
9
0
Ballsy. Stupid, but ballsy.
Thay Soldier is out of line and needs to be corrected ASAP before he gets hemmed up BAD.
Now... to the real question. Unfortunately, there is not a lot you can do. If the LTC and CSM have already been adressed regarding their double standard, and still choose to persist, then you simply have to enforce what you can.
We had a sensing session where the CSM was dipping at the sensing session, and I asked him pretty much this exact question. I asked him how he expected me to enforce smoking rules when he was dipping, and he basically told me to shut up and do my job.
The only other option is to go up to BDE CSM or BDE CDR for enforcement, but I do not recommend that. There is no situation I can envision in which this can be portrayed to BDE in a "proper" light. Every scenario I see ends up with no change and you in trouble (or at least on the shit list) - at both BN and BDE.
Thay Soldier is out of line and needs to be corrected ASAP before he gets hemmed up BAD.
Now... to the real question. Unfortunately, there is not a lot you can do. If the LTC and CSM have already been adressed regarding their double standard, and still choose to persist, then you simply have to enforce what you can.
We had a sensing session where the CSM was dipping at the sensing session, and I asked him pretty much this exact question. I asked him how he expected me to enforce smoking rules when he was dipping, and he basically told me to shut up and do my job.
The only other option is to go up to BDE CSM or BDE CDR for enforcement, but I do not recommend that. There is no situation I can envision in which this can be portrayed to BDE in a "proper" light. Every scenario I see ends up with no change and you in trouble (or at least on the shit list) - at both BN and BDE.
(9)
(0)
SPC John Decker
While I agree with all you have said here, someone has to take that step or unit moral starts to suffer. "If my seniors are breaking the rules, why shouldn't I"? It can only go down-hill from there.
(3)
(0)
(5)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
Maj John Bell - You make a great point that I agree with, except that those who lack moral courage in those regards will likely stay in good lights, getting a gravestone that says, "The Colonel did nothing but great things, never ruffled feathers, and should always be revered." Meanwhile, those subordinates who suffered under them will only be able to grumble in silence and have no way to correct the gravestone to display the Colonel's reputation among the Soldiers they let get hammered over a double-standard they chose not to enforce on their subordinate senior leaders.
It's sad that ruffling feathers is considered worse than staying quite about an obvious wrong.
It's sad that ruffling feathers is considered worse than staying quite about an obvious wrong.
(1)
(0)
SPC John Decker
SFC (Join to see) - Some of those subordinates might take it upon themselves to destroy that gravestone. If the "Major had brass balls", those subordinates would make sure the gravestone was clean and taken care of.
(0)
(0)
8
8
0
Apart from all other comments, which a lot of people have said some great things, I'd just like to say any senior that tells a younger soldier to "check down, not up" is a piece of shit. Personally, this is not a hill that I would die on, but that phrase is garbage and used by garbage 'leaders'. If the lower ranking corrector had said it disrespectfully then there is a need for the correction of disrespect, but enforcing a standard is not disrespectful and still not a reason to use that phrase.
(8)
(0)
SGT James LeFebvre
So true. If done respectfully, juniors can, and indeed should make corrections to seniors. The key, is respectfully. You're right, that phrase is generally used by those who have the whole "do as I say, not as I do" attitude. My take is, well, if YOU'RE not following the standard, then you can't hem up any junior for not following that same standard. Does it happen? Sadly, yes.
(3)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google