Posted on Oct 13, 2017
How would you handle a situation where you saw a soldier (even one of your own soldiers) kneeling during our national anthem?
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Patriotism
UCMJ
Army Regulations
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Article 15
Posted >1 y ago
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Out of uniform and off-base, nothing identifying him or her as a service member; I'd let it pass.
In uniform or actively signaling that he/she is a service member, I'd identify myself and ask to see ID. Then I would ask their unit, the unit's phone number, and the unit's senior SNCO. Finally I would tell them that I would be referring the matter to their senior SNCO, and advise them that they probably want to make sure that SNCO knows before 0800 on the next work day. Because I will by 0815. And God help them if they've lied about what unit they belong to because I will track them down.
In uniform or actively signaling that he/she is a service member, I'd identify myself and ask to see ID. Then I would ask their unit, the unit's phone number, and the unit's senior SNCO. Finally I would tell them that I would be referring the matter to their senior SNCO, and advise them that they probably want to make sure that SNCO knows before 0800 on the next work day. Because I will by 0815. And God help them if they've lied about what unit they belong to because I will track them down.
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SFC Robert Walton
DoDI 5410.19, Volume 3, September 29, 2021
Section 301 of Title 36, United States Code, designates the national anthem and describes
proper conduct during its presentation.
(1) When the national anthem is played and the flag displayed, Service members in
uniform (excluding the color guard) will give the military salute at the first note of the anthem
and maintain that position until the last note. Service members and veterans who are present but
not in uniform may also render the military salute. All other persons present should stand at
attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove
any hats or caps with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the
heart.
(2) When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in
the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
(3) Service members will remain silent during the playing of the national anthem.
c. Sounding Taps.
Section 596 of Public Law 112-239 expresses the sense of Congress that “Taps” should be
designated as the National Song of Military Remembrance. The playing of Taps will be in
accordance with DoD Instruction 1300.15. Upon hearing Taps at a military funeral or memorial
ceremony, Service members in uniform will render appropriate honors, as set by each Military
Service policy.
Please note Where it is said as set by each service Policy. Post and or base Commanders have a book of Command Regulation covering the subject of Saluting regulations most of which mimic DODI 5410.19, as do subordinate commands. FM's Cover what should happen during Training exercises and combat.
We can sit and cut and chop for hours what i or you would follow as the ROL however i choose to go with what i know served me great for 22+ years.
Section 301 of Title 36, United States Code, designates the national anthem and describes
proper conduct during its presentation.
(1) When the national anthem is played and the flag displayed, Service members in
uniform (excluding the color guard) will give the military salute at the first note of the anthem
and maintain that position until the last note. Service members and veterans who are present but
not in uniform may also render the military salute. All other persons present should stand at
attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove
any hats or caps with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the
heart.
(2) When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in
the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
(3) Service members will remain silent during the playing of the national anthem.
c. Sounding Taps.
Section 596 of Public Law 112-239 expresses the sense of Congress that “Taps” should be
designated as the National Song of Military Remembrance. The playing of Taps will be in
accordance with DoD Instruction 1300.15. Upon hearing Taps at a military funeral or memorial
ceremony, Service members in uniform will render appropriate honors, as set by each Military
Service policy.
Please note Where it is said as set by each service Policy. Post and or base Commanders have a book of Command Regulation covering the subject of Saluting regulations most of which mimic DODI 5410.19, as do subordinate commands. FM's Cover what should happen during Training exercises and combat.
We can sit and cut and chop for hours what i or you would follow as the ROL however i choose to go with what i know served me great for 22+ years.
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Maj John Bell
SFC Robert Walton - The key phrasde is "Service members and veterans who are present but not in uniform may also render the military salute." Words matter and "may" does not mean must.
"Shall is an imperative command, usually indicating that certain actions are mandatory, and not permissive. This contrasts with the word “may,” which is generally used to indicate a permissive provision, ordinarily implying some degree of discretion."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/shall
"Shall is an imperative command, usually indicating that certain actions are mandatory, and not permissive. This contrasts with the word “may,” which is generally used to indicate a permissive provision, ordinarily implying some degree of discretion."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/shall
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SFC Robert Walton
Maj John Bell - When not in Uniform you MAY choose to salute. It also uses the word SHOULD. Like i said we can cut and chop. But i have better things to do like go spend time in my wood shop. Rather than type on the computer. Just on a leaving note. It also does not say you will or may KNEEL.
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Maj John Bell
SFC Robert Walton - 3.1. THE U.S. FLAG CODE AND RELATED AUTHORITIES.
"c. Sections 4 and 9 of the Flag Code advise how Service members IN UNIFORM [emphasis mine] will render proper honors to the U.S. flag."
What does it say about service member in civilian attire at civilian events?
In your 22+ years did you ever charge a soldier under the UCMJ for failure to render honors to the flag while in civvies at a civilian event? Perhaps there was a base or installation order, but there is no service(s) wide order and multiple cases subject to both the military court of appeal and SCOTUS place the burden of proof squarely on the prosecution. The prosecution must prove that the failure to render honors was "prejudicial to good order and discipline," and any base/installation order limiting a service member's exercise of their 1st Amendment rights must pass the bar of military necessity.
https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/rights-of-military-personnel/
"c. Sections 4 and 9 of the Flag Code advise how Service members IN UNIFORM [emphasis mine] will render proper honors to the U.S. flag."
What does it say about service member in civilian attire at civilian events?
In your 22+ years did you ever charge a soldier under the UCMJ for failure to render honors to the flag while in civvies at a civilian event? Perhaps there was a base or installation order, but there is no service(s) wide order and multiple cases subject to both the military court of appeal and SCOTUS place the burden of proof squarely on the prosecution. The prosecution must prove that the failure to render honors was "prejudicial to good order and discipline," and any base/installation order limiting a service member's exercise of their 1st Amendment rights must pass the bar of military necessity.
https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/rights-of-military-personnel/
When the U.S. military is a party to cases centering on First Amendment rights, the Supreme Court generally defers to the government’s interest and discretion.
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Depends on the circumstances.
Off duty and out of uniform, we would have a quiet conversation.
On duty and/or in uniform, he would have a really bad day.
Off duty and out of uniform, we would have a quiet conversation.
On duty and/or in uniform, he would have a really bad day.
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SPC (Join to see)
SSG Michael McCalla - Well kid even out of uniform u pretty much know who are the soldiers and who are not. And when ur in the military u are ALWAYS on the clock. WHY well kid cause war is not on any clock and can start at any time.
And if ur dissing America in any way u should not be getting a pay check for what is thumbing ur nose at our country, every soldier current and past. There are a very limited amount of things that cannot be allowed even in a free country and dissing what represents it is the SAME as dissing the Constitution. Get out of here
And if ur dissing America in any way u should not be getting a pay check for what is thumbing ur nose at our country, every soldier current and past. There are a very limited amount of things that cannot be allowed even in a free country and dissing what represents it is the SAME as dissing the Constitution. Get out of here
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Maj John Bell
SPC (Join to see) - "...And when ur in the military u are ALWAYS on the clock."
Absolute nonsense.
_Ever consumed an alcoholic between taking the oath and end of active service? According to your flawed understanding your guilty of violating Article 112 of the UCMJ.
_Slept, Article 113.
Exercising your 1st Amendment rights is not the same thing as "dissing the Constitution."
You should take the time to read the posts in this thread. Because your point of view is out of line with the Judicial opinions handed down by the Supreme Court and The Military Court of Appeals... almost like you're "dissing" what the Constitution has to say about judicial review and the role of the Supreme court.
Absolute nonsense.
_Ever consumed an alcoholic between taking the oath and end of active service? According to your flawed understanding your guilty of violating Article 112 of the UCMJ.
_Slept, Article 113.
Exercising your 1st Amendment rights is not the same thing as "dissing the Constitution."
You should take the time to read the posts in this thread. Because your point of view is out of line with the Judicial opinions handed down by the Supreme Court and The Military Court of Appeals... almost like you're "dissing" what the Constitution has to say about judicial review and the role of the Supreme court.
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CPT (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - The answer is a balancing act between what is normal practice, what should happen, and if you know where he likes to get drunk.
Why do the uncivil always expect others to behave in a civilized manner?
Why do the uncivil always expect others to behave in a civilized manner?
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SSgt Ron Simpson
We did not give our most solumn oath to the National Anthem or the Flag. We gave it to Our Constitution.
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If a soldier kneels during the National Anthem he or she can be Courts Martialed.
Free Speech in the military is constrained by the UCMJ.
DOD Directive 1344.10 - POLITICAL ACTIVITIES BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES ON ACTIVE DUTY, extend these same requirements to all individuals on active duty.
Active duty enlisted members and warrant officers who violate these provisions can be charged under Article 92 of the UCMJ, Failure to Obey an Order or Regulation.
Free Speech in the military is constrained by the UCMJ.
DOD Directive 1344.10 - POLITICAL ACTIVITIES BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES ON ACTIVE DUTY, extend these same requirements to all individuals on active duty.
Active duty enlisted members and warrant officers who violate these provisions can be charged under Article 92 of the UCMJ, Failure to Obey an Order or Regulation.
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SSgt Ron Simpson
We did not give our most solumn oath to the National Anthem or the Flag. We gave it to Our Constitution.
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