Posted on Jul 11, 2014
When will enough be enough? Abuse does not fit in with Military Values!
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This is likely to bring negative backlash towards me. I could care less. If this ends up saving Soldiers and their lives then it makes it worth it. I would like everyone to use their facebook accounts to find the community, Soldiers Against Abuse. This is not my community, however I find it necessary. Please check it out. Read all the posts by the community and other contributors. Feel free to share your relating experiences. Feel free to share on here ways we can effictively implement change.
PTSD
Disrespect
Suicide
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 2
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SPC Sven Pacot This is a community for sharing thoughts and ideas. You'll only get "negative backlash" if you post something warranting it, so you want to care about what you post here on RP.
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SPC Sven Pacot, not going to give you a down-vote, but don't feel like trolling on FaceBook either. Is there something specific you wanted to share with the group?
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COL Randall C.
SPC Sven Pacot, I don't think anyone is in disagreement with your sentiments, but I do disagree with your hypothesis that "abuse is the missing attribute leading to PTSD".
I'll say up front that I'm no expert (I leave that up to the docs), but consider myself an educated layman due to my interactions I've had with others that had PTSD and the research I've done in helping them cope.
ANY traumatic event can trigger PTSD. Typically, PTSD is associated with some event that overwhelms the mind's ability to process that situation in a normal manner. The event could be physical, psychological, or more likely, have elements of both.
The reason I disagree with your hypothesis about abuse is that there are many cases where abuse never plays a factor in the onset of PTSD. Traumatic experiences MAY cause PTSD (abuse can be one of them), but more often it does not (see below). I also disagree with your assertion that "physical abuse (typically rape or MST) leads to PTSD" for the below reasons (if you meant to say that it MAY lead to PTSD, I wholeheartedly agree)
The medical community doesn't really know what causes PTSD to affect one person but not another that was in the same situation. They know a lot about what factors can cause it, the effects it has on the body, and symptoms of it, but not why one person will be affected and not another.
The analogy that the VA therapists gave regarding stress is a description of the "Diathesis stress model". Usually, they speak of an empty glass (your "stress threshold") that has water (stress events) added at different times and is taken out (stress reducers) at times as well. If you suddenly add a significant (traumatic event) amount of water to the glass, it may overflow, depending on how much water was in there to begin with or how large the glass is.
So back to your assertion that abuse in necessary to cause PTSD. There is wide scale opinions on what constitutes abuse and what doesn't (is the a$$ chewing you just got abuse? Maybe yes, maybe no), but regardless of your view, the event that is being described will be stressful to the target of that event. Stress fills up the glass, and if a traumatically stressful event occurs when the glass is filled up, PTSD or another psychological disorder may manifest.
How soldiers deal with stress is the key factor to be focused on, not eliminating all stress. Eliminating all stress is unrealistic - it occurs in all our lives every day, but eliminating unnecessary stress and coping with the stress is a goal to strive for.
To your final statement, you'd be glad to hear that from the senior leadership on down, abuse is not tolerated. The CJCS, CSA and on down the line have all condemned abusive practices and those incidents have been decreasing the military for years. Do they still occur? Yes, but as I said, it is decreasing.
What can be done? If you are a victim of abuse, report it! If you see abuse happening to others, report it! If nothing happens, report it to someone else! As John Stuart Mill sated, "Bad men need nothing more to compass [accomplish] their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing" The number one reason abuse happens over a long time is that it is never reported (I'm overreacting, it's none of my business, they'll know it's me, someone else will report it, etc).
I would suggest though that unless you are sure that what occurred is abuse (remember, I said that there is a wide range of opinions on where the line is for abuse) I would recommend that you talk to someone that could give an objective view on the situation that occurred. This could be anything from talking to a trusted friend, discussing it with a chaplain, or even calling one of the many help lines available in the military (MilitaryOneSource is one that I always tell my soldiers about [800.273.TALK (8255)] for anonymous discussions about anything that is bothering them that they don't want to share).
I'll say up front that I'm no expert (I leave that up to the docs), but consider myself an educated layman due to my interactions I've had with others that had PTSD and the research I've done in helping them cope.
ANY traumatic event can trigger PTSD. Typically, PTSD is associated with some event that overwhelms the mind's ability to process that situation in a normal manner. The event could be physical, psychological, or more likely, have elements of both.
The reason I disagree with your hypothesis about abuse is that there are many cases where abuse never plays a factor in the onset of PTSD. Traumatic experiences MAY cause PTSD (abuse can be one of them), but more often it does not (see below). I also disagree with your assertion that "physical abuse (typically rape or MST) leads to PTSD" for the below reasons (if you meant to say that it MAY lead to PTSD, I wholeheartedly agree)
The medical community doesn't really know what causes PTSD to affect one person but not another that was in the same situation. They know a lot about what factors can cause it, the effects it has on the body, and symptoms of it, but not why one person will be affected and not another.
The analogy that the VA therapists gave regarding stress is a description of the "Diathesis stress model". Usually, they speak of an empty glass (your "stress threshold") that has water (stress events) added at different times and is taken out (stress reducers) at times as well. If you suddenly add a significant (traumatic event) amount of water to the glass, it may overflow, depending on how much water was in there to begin with or how large the glass is.
So back to your assertion that abuse in necessary to cause PTSD. There is wide scale opinions on what constitutes abuse and what doesn't (is the a$$ chewing you just got abuse? Maybe yes, maybe no), but regardless of your view, the event that is being described will be stressful to the target of that event. Stress fills up the glass, and if a traumatically stressful event occurs when the glass is filled up, PTSD or another psychological disorder may manifest.
How soldiers deal with stress is the key factor to be focused on, not eliminating all stress. Eliminating all stress is unrealistic - it occurs in all our lives every day, but eliminating unnecessary stress and coping with the stress is a goal to strive for.
To your final statement, you'd be glad to hear that from the senior leadership on down, abuse is not tolerated. The CJCS, CSA and on down the line have all condemned abusive practices and those incidents have been decreasing the military for years. Do they still occur? Yes, but as I said, it is decreasing.
What can be done? If you are a victim of abuse, report it! If you see abuse happening to others, report it! If nothing happens, report it to someone else! As John Stuart Mill sated, "Bad men need nothing more to compass [accomplish] their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing" The number one reason abuse happens over a long time is that it is never reported (I'm overreacting, it's none of my business, they'll know it's me, someone else will report it, etc).
I would suggest though that unless you are sure that what occurred is abuse (remember, I said that there is a wide range of opinions on where the line is for abuse) I would recommend that you talk to someone that could give an objective view on the situation that occurred. This could be anything from talking to a trusted friend, discussing it with a chaplain, or even calling one of the many help lines available in the military (MilitaryOneSource is one that I always tell my soldiers about [800.273.TALK (8255)] for anonymous discussions about anything that is bothering them that they don't want to share).
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SPC Sven Pacot
First of all, and all due respect, Sir, however I must correct your quote. I had previously stated in my hypothesis is "this abuse is a missing attribute leading to PTSD." I never declared it to be THE missing link. There are many attributing factors, many unknown, when it comes to one person becoming a victim of PTSD. Sir, I do not expect you to be an expert, nor do I claim to be one myself. Nobody understands PTSD and the effects of than the one living with it on a daily basis. The man or woman who claims to be an expert on PTSD is not only a liar but a fool. Personally, I wouldn't even go to the docs to be referred to as experts. You have displayed evidence to support my reasons, and I myself am a living example of why I believe they are not experts. You can go to multiple psychiatrists, psychologists, shrinks or whatever you wish to call them; the story does not change. You can go to six different mental health physicians and you are likely to receive six different diagnosis. Why? The mysteries of the brain are not full understood. Now I will credit you, Sir, that you have definitely brought up some good points. However, you fail to mention that sometimes no matter what you report to who nothing happens and you are punished and your career ruined mine was over the day I walked into BH. Same with several other lower enlisted Soldiers in my own company.
Anyways to get back on track in response to you. You are correct, ANY traumatic event can trigger PTSD, or not. You are correct, PTSD is almost always, rarely not, associated with an "event that overwhelms the mind's ability to process the situation in a normal manner."
I will not backlash you for disagreeing with my hypothesis, that is why I shared it. Give people something to think about. I still stand by it until it can be clinically proven wrong. Now I will agree with you, that there ARE cases of PTSD where abuse was not involved. That is why I stated it as A possible. This indicates that it is not always present. Now when I state that MST, or Military Sexual Trauma most always ends up in suffering from PTSD, I stand firm on that position. Hear me out, Sir. If you trust your battle buddy to your left and your right as you should, would you not be utterly traumatized if said battle buddy raped you? Instead of helping keep you safe they were an enemy themselves. This is 100% intolerable. There is no excuse for this. Now other forms of physical abuse, it could be a grey line, however there are still chances for this to lead to a life suffering from PTSD.
You are absolutely right. The medical community does not know what causes PTSD for one but not the other. Why then should we discard a possibility, if they aren't even certain? I think this theory should be brought into the light and discussed to either eliminate it or add it to the list. The VA have always referred to it as a stress threshold in my part of the country, but all the same whether it is a threshold or a cup. Now, I think I will stop you in your tracks there, however. I believe what you are trying to lead me into, correct me if I am wrong, is the saying, "Time heals all wounds." I have had all but one VA personnel state anything but this. They say if anything, time makes PTSD worse. Only with treatment and care can PTSD become more manageable. It may never go away. Regardless, your analogy speaks the same message that mine demonstrated. I feel we are on the same page on this matter.
I wouldn't go as far as to say it is necessary to cause PTSD, but rather an element that certainly doesn't decrease chances for PTSD. Now the definition might vary individual to individual, and a lot of that has to do with background of each individual. Joe Schmoe got spankings that would last hours, he sees it as discipline. Joe Blow received a few swats, and views what Joe Schmoe grew up with as abuse. Does that make sense? Where society is moving is that Joe Blow is very correct, but they would even view what he grew up with as abuse. The a$$ chewing really depends on the content on choice of dialogue. If you are just being yelled at because you messed up then no this is not verbal abuse. However, if you are being called names and verbally torn apart and put down to feel like a worthless life-form, is that not abuse? That is the angle we are working at. We are attacking this problem. This conflicts the Army Values, which I am sure are no different from other branches. How can you say you implement respect when you make your subordinates feel worthless?
How soldiers deal with it significantly impacts whether a traumatic event leads to PTSD or not. It also has to do with the glass of water analogy. Too much on one's plate will make it not matter whether he handles it well or not. You can only handle so much and even if you handle it relatively well, it will become a burden before you seal the case so to speak. I am not by any means saying we need to rid all stress. Not only is that unrealistic, but it is impossible. Stress is a necessary to a healthy life. All things in moderation. I feel your second point there is right on point.
It is pleasant news that things are beginning to trickle down. Abuse shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. This is, as we referred to it, an unnecessary stress. Back to my point earlier, even when you report it and you do get help in the mental recovery, your unit might still retaliate against you. But these shady units are using umbrellas to make it seem like something completely unrelated and harassment/hazing of said soldiers. I personally have tried Military OneSource and I never got any help. Chaplains can only help you so much, and they usually recommend behavioral health. This works great in a unit that is operating closer to the Army Values, but ends up more damaging in other units. I am not trying to say Military One Source is not helpful, I am sure they are very helpful. But in my case they were no more helpful than JAG. My CoC had JAG in their pocket. It didn't matter what they did, JAG would cover it up and sweep it in the rug. The next day we would be ridiculed by 1SG and to stop wasting JAGs time. This is an issue.
Anyways to get back on track in response to you. You are correct, ANY traumatic event can trigger PTSD, or not. You are correct, PTSD is almost always, rarely not, associated with an "event that overwhelms the mind's ability to process the situation in a normal manner."
I will not backlash you for disagreeing with my hypothesis, that is why I shared it. Give people something to think about. I still stand by it until it can be clinically proven wrong. Now I will agree with you, that there ARE cases of PTSD where abuse was not involved. That is why I stated it as A possible. This indicates that it is not always present. Now when I state that MST, or Military Sexual Trauma most always ends up in suffering from PTSD, I stand firm on that position. Hear me out, Sir. If you trust your battle buddy to your left and your right as you should, would you not be utterly traumatized if said battle buddy raped you? Instead of helping keep you safe they were an enemy themselves. This is 100% intolerable. There is no excuse for this. Now other forms of physical abuse, it could be a grey line, however there are still chances for this to lead to a life suffering from PTSD.
You are absolutely right. The medical community does not know what causes PTSD for one but not the other. Why then should we discard a possibility, if they aren't even certain? I think this theory should be brought into the light and discussed to either eliminate it or add it to the list. The VA have always referred to it as a stress threshold in my part of the country, but all the same whether it is a threshold or a cup. Now, I think I will stop you in your tracks there, however. I believe what you are trying to lead me into, correct me if I am wrong, is the saying, "Time heals all wounds." I have had all but one VA personnel state anything but this. They say if anything, time makes PTSD worse. Only with treatment and care can PTSD become more manageable. It may never go away. Regardless, your analogy speaks the same message that mine demonstrated. I feel we are on the same page on this matter.
I wouldn't go as far as to say it is necessary to cause PTSD, but rather an element that certainly doesn't decrease chances for PTSD. Now the definition might vary individual to individual, and a lot of that has to do with background of each individual. Joe Schmoe got spankings that would last hours, he sees it as discipline. Joe Blow received a few swats, and views what Joe Schmoe grew up with as abuse. Does that make sense? Where society is moving is that Joe Blow is very correct, but they would even view what he grew up with as abuse. The a$$ chewing really depends on the content on choice of dialogue. If you are just being yelled at because you messed up then no this is not verbal abuse. However, if you are being called names and verbally torn apart and put down to feel like a worthless life-form, is that not abuse? That is the angle we are working at. We are attacking this problem. This conflicts the Army Values, which I am sure are no different from other branches. How can you say you implement respect when you make your subordinates feel worthless?
How soldiers deal with it significantly impacts whether a traumatic event leads to PTSD or not. It also has to do with the glass of water analogy. Too much on one's plate will make it not matter whether he handles it well or not. You can only handle so much and even if you handle it relatively well, it will become a burden before you seal the case so to speak. I am not by any means saying we need to rid all stress. Not only is that unrealistic, but it is impossible. Stress is a necessary to a healthy life. All things in moderation. I feel your second point there is right on point.
It is pleasant news that things are beginning to trickle down. Abuse shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. This is, as we referred to it, an unnecessary stress. Back to my point earlier, even when you report it and you do get help in the mental recovery, your unit might still retaliate against you. But these shady units are using umbrellas to make it seem like something completely unrelated and harassment/hazing of said soldiers. I personally have tried Military OneSource and I never got any help. Chaplains can only help you so much, and they usually recommend behavioral health. This works great in a unit that is operating closer to the Army Values, but ends up more damaging in other units. I am not trying to say Military One Source is not helpful, I am sure they are very helpful. But in my case they were no more helpful than JAG. My CoC had JAG in their pocket. It didn't matter what they did, JAG would cover it up and sweep it in the rug. The next day we would be ridiculed by 1SG and to stop wasting JAGs time. This is an issue.
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CH (CPT) Heather Davis
SPC Pacot:
Childhood PTSD is a result of early childhood trauma, child molestation, a violent home life, and it is complex. The early trauma is often not discovered due to sleeper mode. The individual often has amnesia and does not recall the early trauma that happened in a child's developmental period.
I understand your frustration and please be mindful that this is a professional site. Intergenerational PTSD, is also a factor with family genetics, and generations that have served in wars. In my own family my Father served in WWII and my Grand Father was missing in action for a year. The environmental stressors drive the reactionary behavior. Please in box me if I can help in any way.
Childhood PTSD is a result of early childhood trauma, child molestation, a violent home life, and it is complex. The early trauma is often not discovered due to sleeper mode. The individual often has amnesia and does not recall the early trauma that happened in a child's developmental period.
I understand your frustration and please be mindful that this is a professional site. Intergenerational PTSD, is also a factor with family genetics, and generations that have served in wars. In my own family my Father served in WWII and my Grand Father was missing in action for a year. The environmental stressors drive the reactionary behavior. Please in box me if I can help in any way.
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