2 NCOs misconduct, looking at a prison sentence?

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:01:12 -0400

I am very curious to see your responses here on this story.

If they are found guilty of selling military equipment, what's your recommendation for punishment? Why?

here's a link to the story:

http://www.stripes.com/news/army/fort-carson-sergeants-sought-on-suspicion-of-selling-stolen-military-equipment-1.280172

Fort Carson sergeants sought on suspicion of selling stolen military equipment

Two Fort Carson sergeants are accused of selling stolen military equipment that one of them marketed as "untraceable" or "lost," Army investigators say.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Apr 26 at 2014 6:12 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:12:41 -0400

Kinda interested how it will play out. I think they should be court martialed but I suspect they will be tried in Federal Court off base.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Apr 26 at 2014 6:23 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:23:41 -0400

Depends on what's stolen/sold...in this case, selling night-vision goggles (and silencers), I voted for the max.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 7:28 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 19:28:55 -0400

Violates Army values; the law; the public trust; lowers unit readiness...enough said.

Response by 1SG Shane Hansen made Apr 26 at 2014 9:17 PM

1SG Shane Hansen — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 21:17:49 -0400

I wanted to vote the max, but they have not been "proven" guilty yet. Seems like they did a very thorough investigation and have enough evidence though. If they are guilty they should get the max. Isn't it anything over $2500 considered grand theft, if so, they should automatically get jail time just like civilian courts. Either way, I hope the courts martial is swift and they send a message that this will not be tolerated.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Apr 26 at 2014 9:42 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 21:42:45 -0400

As a supply clerk and armorer I know that these items are extremely expensive and are on the sensitive items list for a reason. In my opinion these actions are unconscionable and how they managed to pull this off is beyond my comprehension. Bury them in the deepest darkest hole that can be dug.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 10:05 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 22:05:52 -0400

These guys could arm the cartels.
I voted 1-5, bad conduct.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 26 at 2014 10:38 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 22:38:28 -0400

I think this investigation was handled horribly. These guys are obviously not working alone. This is an elaborate scheme with I'm sure more players who are probably supplying more than just them.
I would have offered them big money to see what they could come up with.
Here's the first hint that they aren't working alone. We have multiple sensitive items missing and no one is on lock down? Because its not being reported as missing. And that wouldn't be coming from some mortar.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 11:04 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 23:04:16 -0400

Theft is theft...period. Whether they are Privates, NCOs, LTCs or Generals. If its more than $50....its grand theft; its not tolerated in the civilian world and should not be tolerated in the military.

Response by SSG Paul Monhollen made Apr 26 at 2014 11:27 PM

SSG Paul Monhollen — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 23:27:55 -0400

They need to be maxed out on possible punishment. They are both NCOs and not only should know better, but are also setting an example for younger Soldiers. If they are not dealt with harshly, younger Soldiers will see it as yet another failing of the system, and figure when they get rank, they too can get away with it.

Response by 1SG Gregory Crocker made Apr 27 at 2014 12:00 AM

1SG Gregory Crocker — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 00:00:59 -0400

CSM,
The value of the items they were allegedly selling along with the dangers associated with them falling into the wrong hands would register multiple felonies on the civilian side. That being said, they are not civilians, they are Non Commissioned Officers in the United States Army. They should be held to a higher standard. Incidents like this not only hurt the Army financially, they also create increased distrust and suspicion from the American public. The incident described is not as simple as "I didn't know" or "I didn't think it was a big deal". How many hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment did they "lose" or "misplace"? Once the entire investigation comes out more can be said. However, personally, I would go for maximum sentences along with reduction to E-1 and a Bad Conduct Discharge. Actions like this can not go with a mere slap on the wrist or unpunished. Their alleged actions degraded the readiness of their unit, diminished the public's view of our professionals, and potentially put very elaborate tactical equipment in the hands of people who have no business with it.

Response by SGT Gregg Larsen made Apr 27 at 2014 1:18 AM

SGT Gregg Larsen — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 01:18:45 -0400

This kind of activity is unacceptable and as others have said these kind of sensitive items should have put the unit on lock down. I also feel there are others involved and a more detailed investigation should be done. As for these soldiers, they negatively reflect on the values of the United States Army and should take the maximum punishment for this type of crime.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2014 2:04 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 02:04:14 -0400

Although I vote for the max, I seriously doubt they will get more than 12 months jail with only serving 10. My last battalion had a similar instance. A Soldier was trying to sell something like 120 ACOG's. He sold most of them, and got caught trying to sell the last few. Even though most were recovered he wound up only having to server I believe it was 10 months, reduction to E-1, and a bad conduct discharge..

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2014 4:45 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 04:45:04 -0400

As others have already stated, this has to farther reaching than 2 NCOs. Either this is the worst case of supply accountability or one of the most poorly executed FLIPLs ever conducted. Having said that, there is no excuse for what they did. They violated the trust of the American people and deserve to punished accordingly.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2014 6:21 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 06:21:06 -0400

Article 108: Military property of the
United States—sale, loss, damage,
destruction, or wrongful disposition. e. Maximum punishment. (1) Selling or otherwise disposing of military property. (b) Of a value of more than $500.00 or any
firearm or explosive. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture
of all pay and allowances, and confinement for
10 years.

Response by SSG Robin Rushlo made Apr 27 at 2014 8:37 AM

SSG Robin Rushlo — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 08:37:07 -0400

Theft is theft. The only thing having been a Property Book Team manager over several companies, would and should have been more people involved. Also the reason why would be helpful but, does not change the fact theft is theft.It does impact readiness.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2014 12:25 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 12:25:10 -0400

They should be sentenced to the maximum penalty if found guilty.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2014 2:45 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 14:45:19 -0400

When you enlist, and swear in by oath, you put yourself in an elite category. Willing to place yourself in a position where you may need to give your life for a greater purpose. It doesn't give you the right to defraud the military, the government, or your country. It's similar to police officers. They put on a badge to protect and serve and uphold the law. Not bend it for their benefit and personal satisfaction. I say max punishment!

Response by MSG Brad Sand made May 6 at 2014 11:39 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Tue, 06 May 2014 11:39:57 -0400

First, we need to get the facts of this whole mess. While a sentence in Stars and Stripes is evidence, it does not mean it is all of the evidence.

With this being said, when all the evidence is presented and if it turns out these two wee selling what was stated, the book should be thrown at them...but not until all the evidence has been presented.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made May 6 at 2014 5:03 PM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Tue, 06 May 2014 17:03:42 -0400

Definitely a court martial 5+ years and a BCD. These soldiers could have put the public in danger by equiping someone that wants to do harm either to a military installation or even just out in the community. Putting other people's lives in danger by selling the equipment is almost as bad as the guys using it and hurting someone.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2014 10:31 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 May 2014 22:31:22 -0400

Without knowing the total value of the items sold the minimum would be an article 15 and separation from service with an other than honorable discharge. With NCO's with that type of character they have no place wearing the uniform. To wear that uniform is an honor and not a right. NCO's like this bring not only shame to themselves but to all NCO's and Soldiers that have made the ultimate sacrifice for there country.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Jul 11 at 2014 5:52 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 17:52:29 -0400

This was not an "oops". This was a pair of criminals setting up a criminal enterprise and stealing from their brothers. They violated every bit of trust that was placed in them. They should be tried fairly, then punished justly. The reduction to E1 and BCD or Dishonorable Discharge would be appropriate. They should also do time commensurate to the estimated value of the theft.

The message should be harsh and swift, so there is no doubt about the message. Additionally, there are likely others that will be caught up, wether by involvement or the receipt of stolen property. Oh well. Never in my life would I have thought it was ok to by a silencer in a gas station bathroom, in an MRE package. Just saying.

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2014 6:04 PM

Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 18:04:15 -0400

I voted for the maximum. Silencers and Night Vision Goggles can be very dangerous tools in the wrong hands.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2014 12:25 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Jul 2014 00:25:17 -0400

Simply said:

They stole, violating core values/principles & UCMJ. That alone pretty much puts them at the mid-point. They stole high-value items, taking it further. They then worked to sell it for personal gain and to who knows who for what intentions. I agree hit them for the max, punishment fits the crime & enforces expected behavior/standards of those we serve with.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2014 6:09 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 18:09:16 -0500

The problem with UCMJ is that its very out dated, and punishment is selective. Curious what if they were young LTs?

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Aug 21 at 2015 5:46 PM

CW4 Guy Butler — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 17:46:26 -0400

I'd be interested in the source as well, although I can think of a few ways they could find the equipment. Frustrated Conex, for example.

Other than that, this is why we built Leavenworth...

Response by CW4 Guy Butler made Aug 21 at 2015 6:00 PM

CW4 Guy Butler — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:00:23 -0400

Interesting. This reminds me of another thread on RallyPoint about whether we're taking the stolen valor policing too far (I'd pull the link, but the phone doesn't search well).

Regardless, physical assault is too far.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 21 at 2015 6:03 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:03:48 -0400

Only numb nuts will sell sensitive items.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Aug 21 at 2015 6:32 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:32:30 -0400

I'm actually surprised that so few feel they don't deserve prison time. This is an absolute breech of trust, and should be punished with some time in the can...