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So not only are the Chinese knowledgeable in the active locations of our aircraft, they are actively flaunting it.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/22/us-usa-china-warplane-idUSKBN0GM1YE20140822
This isn't the first time another nation has done this either.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27701195
Are we not doing enough to make sure our aircraft go undetected, or are they figuring our locations out through other means? Should we be adding defensive aircraft with our intellegence gathering missions?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/22/us-usa-china-warplane-idUSKBN0GM1YE20140822
This isn't the first time another nation has done this either.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27701195
Are we not doing enough to make sure our aircraft go undetected, or are they figuring our locations out through other means? Should we be adding defensive aircraft with our intellegence gathering missions?
China
Diplomacy
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 8
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Since the thread was updated/corrected I thought it appropriate to do the same.
Well...it's not hard to figure out where a P-8 is. It has NO coatings, or other methods to deflect or absorb/adsorb radar. A standard navigation radar can find a P-3 or a P-8 on the ocean. Since the P-8 has 4 jet engines (max speed 564 mph)used in searching for submarines - it's a fat, relatively slow target. An SU-27 is a twin-engined jet aircraft - max speed Mach 2+. Math says the rest. Only in the most unusual circumstances will a P-8 evade or escape the SU-27. Doing a barrel-roll over the aircraft...not so impressive. Now, when they take a photo of an SU-27 doing a barrel-roll around an F-14 or an F/A-18...now THAT will be impressive.
Well...it's not hard to figure out where a P-8 is. It has NO coatings, or other methods to deflect or absorb/adsorb radar. A standard navigation radar can find a P-3 or a P-8 on the ocean. Since the P-8 has 4 jet engines (max speed 564 mph)used in searching for submarines - it's a fat, relatively slow target. An SU-27 is a twin-engined jet aircraft - max speed Mach 2+. Math says the rest. Only in the most unusual circumstances will a P-8 evade or escape the SU-27. Doing a barrel-roll over the aircraft...not so impressive. Now, when they take a photo of an SU-27 doing a barrel-roll around an F-14 or an F/A-18...now THAT will be impressive.
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PO1 (Join to see)
CDR Thomas Gatliffe You're spot on. I made the comment before I read the article - I assumed the title of the thread was correct. Of course the P-8's flying capabilities are different with the jet engines ...... along with updated sensor suite, etc
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PO1 (Join to see)
CPO (Join to see) Not a problem - we both got in a hurry! Interesting article - kinda reminds me of the days when the Soviet Pilots would come out to flank our guys. Though the chinese pilots appear to have more initiative and independence.
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Sgt Packy Flickinger
The SU27 is one hell of an aircraft. As much as I hate to say it, Id bet on it over the 14 or 18. If it were a 35, definately. Ive seen the 27 do a tail stand and hover like a Harrier flip over and fly backwards and go verticle from a 500 foot roll.
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The P-8 was over 100 miles from the coast, i.e., in everyone's definition of international waters. They are not stealthy aircraft and air search radar can track them at several hundred miles with little difficulty so I don't think the Chinese were trying to show off any special detection capability. This was probably the EP-8 variant used for intelligence collection and the Chinese were probably just trying to intimidate in their own unique way. I believe they shot down an EP-3 a few years ago that was only about 15-20 miles from the coast.
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CDR Thomas Gatliffe
It's probably not mentioned because it was not a "cold war" loss, which is the subject of the brochure. Mike's shoot down was a combat loss in the Vietnam war zone and was hit by a Cambodian gunboat while flying low over the wate in the Gulf of Siam. Probably a lucky shot (or combination of hits) that brought it down and it probably didn't have enough altitude for the pilots to recover control before crashing. Although that is the story that was circulated at the time, since the loss occurred at night, they may have simply flown into the water if they had suffered some other type of in-flight emergency. Since the report you provided doesn't mention any reports of enemy action before contact was lost, that latter scenario is very likely.
Thanks for posting that link. Apparently Mike was a TAO (Tactical Action Officer) and not the copilot as I had thought.
Thanks for posting that link. Apparently Mike was a TAO (Tactical Action Officer) and not the copilot as I had thought.
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Suspended Profile
CDR Thomas Gatliffe. I am deeply sorry for your loss . . . I suspect my visceral feeling is that all of our ELINT missions are cold war due to their nature . . . and because we rarely encounter armed engagement beyond contact and escort . . . If anyone has records of this shootdown we must update the Virtual Wall and public records . . . I will check other records. Warmest Regards, Sandy
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CDR Thomas Gatliffe
Comment moved over to relocated 1Lt Sandy Annala Response elsewhere in the thread.
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Although RAMD Kirby said that the pass directly across the nose of the P-8 was probably to show off that it was armed, I have a different possible take on that.
Having operated extensively at sea off the Chinese coast, I have experienced many instances of Chinese (both mainland and Taiwanese) water craft attempting to pass directly in front of the ship's bow and as close as possible without actually being struck. Our Taiwanese liaison explained that this relates to a superstition that the "boat people" hold about boats and their crews developing "tails" of evil spirits over time and that another boat or ship passing across its wake will cut off that tail, which then attaches to the end of the second craft's evil spirit tail. Maybe the Chinese pilot was just attempting to transfer his evil spirit tail to the P-8. Sounds reasonable to me.
Having operated extensively at sea off the Chinese coast, I have experienced many instances of Chinese (both mainland and Taiwanese) water craft attempting to pass directly in front of the ship's bow and as close as possible without actually being struck. Our Taiwanese liaison explained that this relates to a superstition that the "boat people" hold about boats and their crews developing "tails" of evil spirits over time and that another boat or ship passing across its wake will cut off that tail, which then attaches to the end of the second craft's evil spirit tail. Maybe the Chinese pilot was just attempting to transfer his evil spirit tail to the P-8. Sounds reasonable to me.
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