Law
UCMJ
JAG
Responses: 17
3
3
0
I'm going to expand on the issue seeing as there weren't many characters to use stating the question.
The guy was a jr enlisted reservist. His command brought him in to take a record APFT 4 times total when he wasn't on paid or drilling status. His command flagged him, never counseled him, didn't even tell him. He found out, talked to his unit. They told him to come take another APFT. He comes in, tells his command he is taking it for record, and passes it. Command tells him the APFT doesn't count as the commander didn't approve it. That same APFT, another SPC took the pt test, passed it, went and reenlisted. So this guy talks to his commander and is told he is still flagged, with no counseling, and he can't reenlist. So he calls the IG up. Local IG tells him to talk to the battalion cdr first. Guy talks to the CSM and BN CDR. They tell him he is flagged and can't reenilist, but can take another APFT. Guy takes 3rd APFT. Misses run by about 20 seconds. Command brings him back to the unit, counsels and flags him. Apparently, they didn't conduct the APFT to standard. All this is non drilling and unpaid. 1SG tears up the counseling and flagging. Says he can retake the APFT again. IG calls unit and SPC. Says they're looking into it and advises against a fourth APFT.
IG assigns investigating officer who is subordinate of SPC's command. They come in take statements etc. SPC goes to FTX with unit 3 days after investigating officer is there. Declines to take an APFT there due to the 180 days from failure regulation and IG recommendation. I'd have to pull the AR on it, but I've personally checked. It exists. SPC is removed from duty by the HHD commander and assigned to KP. The BN commander has a conversation with the SPC and two unit chaplains. Tells the SPC they feel he may be a threat and that he will be forced to ETS. Again, no valid flaggings against this SPC. They do not allow him to do any training events or qualify. They assign him to KP the entire time.
The SPC feels retaliated against. I'll admit, he's pulled from duty, deemed a threat, and told he is going to be forcibly ETS'd by the BN CDR, just a few days after an IG investigation. So the guy waits out the local IG who tell him there's no issue. I can read AR's reasonably well. This kid is getting hosed. He asks for open door with BDE CDR. She declines to talk to him. He talks with BDE deputy commander and JAG. They don't do anything for him. He goes to the 1 star level. CSM and CDR decline to speak with him. The unit also flagged him again with no counseling documents for the APFT he did not take at the FTX. He is declined for open door by the 2 star command.
The SPC also has contacted the USARC IG and been turned down by them. They told him to file FOIA and take it from there. This is a kid who doesn't know how to FOIA and to address that. Kid goes to Dept. Army IG and it turned down summarily by them.
The SPC contacted the deputy commander of the USARC directly. Turns out the unit had already discharged him with no notification about two months prior.
The guy had also attempted to go through the article 138. He requested counsel by the TDS. They took two months to assign him an attorney by which point he was already discharged.
Guy got ahold of the XO to SMA Dailey. That CSM twice directed army reserve senior staff to look into the issue and make a recommendation. They twice referred the SPC back to the SMA office.
The DOD IG discharged this SPC's complaiint during intake. The SMA office sent a request to the DOD IG to investigate a few weeks ago. The now former SPC never heard back from them.
This SPC has showed me about 100 emails and documents to prove his story. He has followed the chain of command from his 1SG and HHD commander to the pentagon. He has worked the IG route from local to DOD. The now former SPC has been brushed off and ignored for 13 months now. His congressperson has done nothing for him. I've seen the emails.
I don't have any further advice for the guy. What do you do for someone when the entire systems that are supposed to handle issues and investigate things, they just brushed this guy aside time and again. I don't know anyone or how to contact anyone further to help the guy. Short of the media, somebody like Congressman Duncan Hunter, or a tough attorney helping this guy, I have no clue where to direct him. I apparently don't have the knowledge or connections. It's a failure by me to be unable to help him as well as a piipeline of senior enlisted and senior commanders.
This former SPC needs help.
The guy was a jr enlisted reservist. His command brought him in to take a record APFT 4 times total when he wasn't on paid or drilling status. His command flagged him, never counseled him, didn't even tell him. He found out, talked to his unit. They told him to come take another APFT. He comes in, tells his command he is taking it for record, and passes it. Command tells him the APFT doesn't count as the commander didn't approve it. That same APFT, another SPC took the pt test, passed it, went and reenlisted. So this guy talks to his commander and is told he is still flagged, with no counseling, and he can't reenlist. So he calls the IG up. Local IG tells him to talk to the battalion cdr first. Guy talks to the CSM and BN CDR. They tell him he is flagged and can't reenilist, but can take another APFT. Guy takes 3rd APFT. Misses run by about 20 seconds. Command brings him back to the unit, counsels and flags him. Apparently, they didn't conduct the APFT to standard. All this is non drilling and unpaid. 1SG tears up the counseling and flagging. Says he can retake the APFT again. IG calls unit and SPC. Says they're looking into it and advises against a fourth APFT.
IG assigns investigating officer who is subordinate of SPC's command. They come in take statements etc. SPC goes to FTX with unit 3 days after investigating officer is there. Declines to take an APFT there due to the 180 days from failure regulation and IG recommendation. I'd have to pull the AR on it, but I've personally checked. It exists. SPC is removed from duty by the HHD commander and assigned to KP. The BN commander has a conversation with the SPC and two unit chaplains. Tells the SPC they feel he may be a threat and that he will be forced to ETS. Again, no valid flaggings against this SPC. They do not allow him to do any training events or qualify. They assign him to KP the entire time.
The SPC feels retaliated against. I'll admit, he's pulled from duty, deemed a threat, and told he is going to be forcibly ETS'd by the BN CDR, just a few days after an IG investigation. So the guy waits out the local IG who tell him there's no issue. I can read AR's reasonably well. This kid is getting hosed. He asks for open door with BDE CDR. She declines to talk to him. He talks with BDE deputy commander and JAG. They don't do anything for him. He goes to the 1 star level. CSM and CDR decline to speak with him. The unit also flagged him again with no counseling documents for the APFT he did not take at the FTX. He is declined for open door by the 2 star command.
The SPC also has contacted the USARC IG and been turned down by them. They told him to file FOIA and take it from there. This is a kid who doesn't know how to FOIA and to address that. Kid goes to Dept. Army IG and it turned down summarily by them.
The SPC contacted the deputy commander of the USARC directly. Turns out the unit had already discharged him with no notification about two months prior.
The guy had also attempted to go through the article 138. He requested counsel by the TDS. They took two months to assign him an attorney by which point he was already discharged.
Guy got ahold of the XO to SMA Dailey. That CSM twice directed army reserve senior staff to look into the issue and make a recommendation. They twice referred the SPC back to the SMA office.
The DOD IG discharged this SPC's complaiint during intake. The SMA office sent a request to the DOD IG to investigate a few weeks ago. The now former SPC never heard back from them.
This SPC has showed me about 100 emails and documents to prove his story. He has followed the chain of command from his 1SG and HHD commander to the pentagon. He has worked the IG route from local to DOD. The now former SPC has been brushed off and ignored for 13 months now. His congressperson has done nothing for him. I've seen the emails.
I don't have any further advice for the guy. What do you do for someone when the entire systems that are supposed to handle issues and investigate things, they just brushed this guy aside time and again. I don't know anyone or how to contact anyone further to help the guy. Short of the media, somebody like Congressman Duncan Hunter, or a tough attorney helping this guy, I have no clue where to direct him. I apparently don't have the knowledge or connections. It's a failure by me to be unable to help him as well as a piipeline of senior enlisted and senior commanders.
This former SPC needs help.
(3)
(0)
COL Vincent Stoneking
I hate to be the one to say it, but there is no evidence of retaliation in the above. No, really, read through it again - carefully. At no point did they take any action against him BECAUSE of the fact that he filed an IG complaint. By definition, without that, there is no retaliation.
The unit may well have done him dirt. But if so, it was doing him dirty before the IG complaint, and continued with NO CHANGE during and following the investigations. Again, no change is - by definition - NOT retaliation.
It may well be that the command acted in a way that was against regulations (which is what IG primarily looks at) or in a manner that was manifestly unjust (which is what IG secondarily looks at) such that the IG should have recommended that the appointing authority (which is the command, not the IG) take some action. If so, further action on the Soldier's part may be justified, though really at this level (IG and congressional done, IG refusal of further investigations, senior commanders refusing to discuss, 138 ended, it sounds like), that really only leaves ABCMR or a lawsuit.
I make no judgement on the underlying conduct, because I have seen only one side of the story above. While not casting aspersions at the claimed narrative, I've got to say that it goes against my experience that a Soldier would be treated THAT lopsidedly. Then again, the older I've gotten, the more I've found things that go against my experience.
The unit may well have done him dirt. But if so, it was doing him dirty before the IG complaint, and continued with NO CHANGE during and following the investigations. Again, no change is - by definition - NOT retaliation.
It may well be that the command acted in a way that was against regulations (which is what IG primarily looks at) or in a manner that was manifestly unjust (which is what IG secondarily looks at) such that the IG should have recommended that the appointing authority (which is the command, not the IG) take some action. If so, further action on the Soldier's part may be justified, though really at this level (IG and congressional done, IG refusal of further investigations, senior commanders refusing to discuss, 138 ended, it sounds like), that really only leaves ABCMR or a lawsuit.
I make no judgement on the underlying conduct, because I have seen only one side of the story above. While not casting aspersions at the claimed narrative, I've got to say that it goes against my experience that a Soldier would be treated THAT lopsidedly. Then again, the older I've gotten, the more I've found things that go against my experience.
(1)
(0)
MAJ (Join to see)
CPT Gowin,
I spoke with the young man's BN CSM. His statement was that he thought the soldier had used the appropriate measures to address it, just that it hadn't gone the SPC's way. Perhaps I should stay in my lane, however, this young man asked me for advisement on the matter. I always believed commanders were supposed to take care of their troops, and demonstrate leadership while accomplishing the mission.
Having pulled some of the applicable regulations in the matter and printed them off, I don't believe you can tell me that it's appropriate for a junior enlisted to have been flagged four times without being counseled or notified of any of them. It's certainly not within army regulations. My point here was not to cause discord or argument with others, but rather to seek a consensus and collect thoughts beyond my own. Takes a village of NCO's and officers to raise good troops.
From my perspective, and having a folder of relevant documents the young man has given me, I can see why he'd be displeased with the outcome.
His only remedies at this point are likely the board of corrections and/or a federal civil suit.
I spoke with the young man's BN CSM. His statement was that he thought the soldier had used the appropriate measures to address it, just that it hadn't gone the SPC's way. Perhaps I should stay in my lane, however, this young man asked me for advisement on the matter. I always believed commanders were supposed to take care of their troops, and demonstrate leadership while accomplishing the mission.
Having pulled some of the applicable regulations in the matter and printed them off, I don't believe you can tell me that it's appropriate for a junior enlisted to have been flagged four times without being counseled or notified of any of them. It's certainly not within army regulations. My point here was not to cause discord or argument with others, but rather to seek a consensus and collect thoughts beyond my own. Takes a village of NCO's and officers to raise good troops.
From my perspective, and having a folder of relevant documents the young man has given me, I can see why he'd be displeased with the outcome.
His only remedies at this point are likely the board of corrections and/or a federal civil suit.
(2)
(0)
MAJ (Join to see)
COL Vincent Stoneking -
We do live in a world that seems to get more crazy by the day. The way things have changed in the last forty years, I can't imagine where we'll be socially or technologically in another thirty.
We do live in a world that seems to get more crazy by the day. The way things have changed in the last forty years, I can't imagine where we'll be socially or technologically in another thirty.
(0)
(0)
3
3
0
Would need more details to give educated advice, but I would either advise counsel in any legal issue like this ,sir, or escalate it up the chain of command...there has to be a point in the chain where someone can get involved who is not involved in this situation.
(3)
(0)
3
3
0
If there is a legitimate issue, congressional inquiry is the next logical step.
(3)
(0)
MAJ (Join to see)
Guy's been there and done that. His local sent him an email basically stating nothing other than they are there to support him.
(0)
(0)
CPL (Join to see)
Didn't work for me. They never 3rd me when they were coming out to investigate and then everyone made it look like I was this bad, horrible person by using heresay for most of the responses they got from people that I may have said about this or that. They never spoke with me and a month later, because my unit was "butt-hurt", they started proceedings for Article 15. One SFC put in a counseling statement she never have me and put that I refused to sign in types letters. They got on the phone with each other and came up with a story. These leaders that came against me all were belittling and two-faced. I either couldn't please them enough or got bosses around like a private at the same time being a platoon leader and the one Motorpool Sergeant would periodically put me down in front of lower enlisted and demean me. So, excuse me for not having anything nice to say about my full time leadership.
(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google