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I have kind of a dual question about counselings for senior NCOs non-selected for promotion. First off, do any of the CSMs or 1SGs here give them to their soldiers? I have yet to ever receive one and didn't know if it is common Army wide.
Along with that, if you do, what do you counsel them on? When discussing board results with other passed over peers, the conversation is usually the same. Everyone reads the AAR and are pretty sure most of the comments don't apply (outdated photo, greens not ASUs, didn't certify board file, etc). How do you counsel the soldier since it is unknown and not realistically possible for each soldier to get a personal AAR from the board? The example that usually comes up is what if the soldier is making the same mistakes year after year on their board file or career and they or whoever is helping them prepare don't catch it?
Along with that, if you do, what do you counsel them on? When discussing board results with other passed over peers, the conversation is usually the same. Everyone reads the AAR and are pretty sure most of the comments don't apply (outdated photo, greens not ASUs, didn't certify board file, etc). How do you counsel the soldier since it is unknown and not realistically possible for each soldier to get a personal AAR from the board? The example that usually comes up is what if the soldier is making the same mistakes year after year on their board file or career and they or whoever is helping them prepare don't catch it?
Promotions
Promotion Board
Counseling
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 4
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AR 600-8-19 says "There are no requirements to counsel Soldiers who are not recommended for promotion to SFC through SGM"
However, I would think that at a minimum, someone that has been passed over should request a sit down with the CSM and go through their board file with them and try to identify any possible issues. Another set of experienced eyes might help identify that thing that you didn't notice as a discrepancy.
I have personally sat down with my platoon sergeants and reviewed their files to make sure they are up to snuff. Some things you just can't fix though, like previous NCOERs and how they were written/rated. I also make sure they fully understand the board MILPER message and comply before they validate as well as read previous years AARs. I guess the things I do are mostly preemptive steps though. Out of the 4 PSGs I have had that have been eligible, they have all been picked up first look. So luckily I have not had to deal with the dilemma of whether or not to counsel them after the fact.
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SFC (Join to see)
I working on a standardized counseling for Seniors non selected to SFC. Would like some recomendations on what should i cover.
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SFC Clames,
I have counseled both my SFCs and SSGs who did not get selected for promotion. Most of the counseling was about the appearance of the board packet to the Selection Board. DA Photo, last five NCOERs, ERB, and even there OPMF. You hit it on the head too the AAR as well. I also recommend if you are in the states you should update your records in PERSON!
Those are the thing I counseled them on. I hope it helps.
V/R
1SG Haro
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Is this counseling required for centralized promotion boards?
I haven't formally counseled a non-select for a centralized promotion board, but we were proactive with their records BEFORE the board...this, along with reviewing DA PAM 600-25 (NCOPD Guide) and board AARs is the best we can do (in my view).
I haven't formally counseled a non-select for a centralized promotion board, but we were proactive with their records BEFORE the board...this, along with reviewing DA PAM 600-25 (NCOPD Guide) and board AARs is the best we can do (in my view).
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SFC Aaron Calmes
SSG Love as far as the proactive part I get what MSG Quick is referring to. There is a big difference between what I think he means and how you are seeing it. When I have soldiers going for SFC, when they are actively seeking guidance I think is what he is referring to, not the ones that you have to drag to go get a DA Photo, and force the to fix their IPERMS and ERB. I am with you on the fact that I shouldn't have to force a soldier to fix their records for the board. However it is our job as mentors to make sure those being proactive have some guidance. If my soldier is working hard to IPERMS documents because of the S1 or branch, I will most definitely step in and assist. I will not do everything for them which you shouldn't be because as you said, do you really want those types in senior positions? If a soldier won't maintain their own career what chance is their of them squaring away their own soldiers? In a drawdown like the are doing now it is a very bad time to be average or below average. These aren't the days of "I'm nor going to submit a packet because I like where I am at". All senior boards have a twofold purpose. Promotions and removal from the service. The soldiers you worry about will have their incomplete digital board file be reviewed and have a good chance of being shown the door.
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SFC (Join to see)
SFC Calmes, I am sure MSG Quick is is speaking about those who are being proactive. I am interested to hear from senior leaders about why the other side of that coin exists. I in no way meant to lead anyone to believe that MSG Quick was in that group and if I did I apologize. Over the last two years seeing many of my peers coming into their first look I have seen senior NCOs show the mentality that they will "lead this horse to water, and once there they will continue to force hydrate said horse" leading to some NCOs getting picked up that maybe are not quite ready. I like your explanation about the two purposes of a centralized board.
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SGM Matthew Quick
SSG Lace,
I look at my subordinates (or anyone that wants to succeed for that matter) as my family and I want to see my family succeed.
Although my 'family' members care about their careers and have done everything, from their experience level, that they can for a centralized promotion board, I feel I am versed with a broader experience level...why waste that?
Similar to your initiatives by continually maintaining your records (I commend you), that's expected when I come in contact with family members. But what if they're doing all they can and they're missing something? That's what leadership and mentorship is all about.
Will I force someone to do more for their own careers? I look at it more as motivating someone to WANT to do more for their career...although I've been pretty blessed throughout my career not to HAVE to do much motivating in that aspect.
But back to the original question...I feel it's too late to counsel non-selects after a centralized board, unless individual feedback was provided. Being proactive and following published guidelines (DA PAM 600-25), educating yourself on previous boards AND seeking an early records review from knowledge and willing senior NCOs will set NCOs up for future success.
Although my 'family' members care about their careers and have done everything, from their experience level, that they can for a centralized promotion board, I feel I am versed with a broader experience level...why waste that?
Similar to your initiatives by continually maintaining your records (I commend you), that's expected when I come in contact with family members. But what if they're doing all they can and they're missing something? That's what leadership and mentorship is all about.
Will I force someone to do more for their own careers? I look at it more as motivating someone to WANT to do more for their career...although I've been pretty blessed throughout my career not to HAVE to do much motivating in that aspect.
But back to the original question...I feel it's too late to counsel non-selects after a centralized board, unless individual feedback was provided. Being proactive and following published guidelines (DA PAM 600-25), educating yourself on previous boards AND seeking an early records review from knowledge and willing senior NCOs will set NCOs up for future success.
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1SG Tom Conner
SFC (Join to see) As SFC Calmes pointed out, there are two purposes of the centralized boards. We tend to focus on the promotion procedure, and any information reducing the unknown aspect helps NCOs take care of their own records. Beyond that, any counseling should provide another pair of eyes to help an NCO see where they are and identify how they may improve their probability of promotion by improving their performance.
Realization of the possibility of separation from service may be the wake up call that NCO needs.
Realization of the possibility of separation from service may be the wake up call that NCO needs.
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