Posted on Mar 17, 2021
How will the military handle the conundrum with the Catholic Church and same sex marriages?
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Have to toss this out there - being Roman Catholic. Had to dig deep, please feel free to pass around to the masses!
The Department of Defense (DoD) now has a conundrum with same sex marriage on its hands, due to the newer policies of the Biden Administration, as the Pope recently stated that same sex marriages are barred. With the new administration in office, same sex marriages are now permitted and acceptable. This raises several difficult question(s) for the militaries Religious Services as a whole, and I will explain.
1) Are Chaplains/Deacons now not permitted to marry same sex due to their own religion, or religious faith, morals and values as dictated by the church?
2) Are Chaplains/Deacons now eligible to be prosecuted for not following lawful orders from higher under UCMJ or observed to be immune?
3) Due to Catholicism now undergoing a major change, if barred, and if DoD accepts and modifies its mandates, should other religions be permitted to marry, or are all religions now to barred?
I have come to remain neutral on the matter as every era has its changes. When I was younger in my 20s, honestly, I was against - out of the woodwork with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", folks just started popping up, left and right. No choice in the matter serving, I slowly started accepting change and now am neutral with the matter - as can't change it, roll with it!
I bring to light these questions, and I'll pose another with Muslims and being able to marry up to 4-wives. Why not permit? Obviously, the DoD wants to include what society has seemingly come to accept with some activity, but Catholicism has yet to take on. However, Muslim activities are held back by the DoD, e.g., 4-wives... Why?
I myself find it rather funny with what is acceptable, and what not, when it comes to religious activity and what is considered immoral.
And SO, my ask a question -
One must ask, where does/should the DoD draw the line with crossing Religion and religious matters of morality and/or now having to deal with actions against those whom may/might not want to, rather cannot, due to their religion, permit? And, why is it now okay for some matters of moral/immoral activity, for some, but not all?
Am interested to read folks opinions on the matter - HOWEVER, BE KIND AND RESPECTFUL OF ONE ANOTHER, THIS IS AN EXTREMELY HEATED TOPIC FOR SOME!!!
https://apnews.com/article/vatican-decree-same-sex-unions-cannot-bless-sin-077944750c975313ad253328e4cf7443
The Department of Defense (DoD) now has a conundrum with same sex marriage on its hands, due to the newer policies of the Biden Administration, as the Pope recently stated that same sex marriages are barred. With the new administration in office, same sex marriages are now permitted and acceptable. This raises several difficult question(s) for the militaries Religious Services as a whole, and I will explain.
1) Are Chaplains/Deacons now not permitted to marry same sex due to their own religion, or religious faith, morals and values as dictated by the church?
2) Are Chaplains/Deacons now eligible to be prosecuted for not following lawful orders from higher under UCMJ or observed to be immune?
3) Due to Catholicism now undergoing a major change, if barred, and if DoD accepts and modifies its mandates, should other religions be permitted to marry, or are all religions now to barred?
I have come to remain neutral on the matter as every era has its changes. When I was younger in my 20s, honestly, I was against - out of the woodwork with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", folks just started popping up, left and right. No choice in the matter serving, I slowly started accepting change and now am neutral with the matter - as can't change it, roll with it!
I bring to light these questions, and I'll pose another with Muslims and being able to marry up to 4-wives. Why not permit? Obviously, the DoD wants to include what society has seemingly come to accept with some activity, but Catholicism has yet to take on. However, Muslim activities are held back by the DoD, e.g., 4-wives... Why?
I myself find it rather funny with what is acceptable, and what not, when it comes to religious activity and what is considered immoral.
And SO, my ask a question -
One must ask, where does/should the DoD draw the line with crossing Religion and religious matters of morality and/or now having to deal with actions against those whom may/might not want to, rather cannot, due to their religion, permit? And, why is it now okay for some matters of moral/immoral activity, for some, but not all?
Am interested to read folks opinions on the matter - HOWEVER, BE KIND AND RESPECTFUL OF ONE ANOTHER, THIS IS AN EXTREMELY HEATED TOPIC FOR SOME!!!
https://apnews.com/article/vatican-decree-same-sex-unions-cannot-bless-sin-077944750c975313ad253328e4cf7443
Posted in these groups: 
DoDCatholic CharitiesCatholic Charities of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston
DoDCatholic CharitiesCatholic Charities of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston
Posted 3 y ago
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I don’t see how the DoD has any conundrum on its hands. The United States nor the DoD are under the Pope nor do they have to follow the Pope. The Pope didn’t state any such thing either – the Vatican did because the Pope said he has no issue with same sex marriage.
Same sex marriages have been legal in the US since 2015. June 26, 2015 is when the SCOTUS struck down all state bans on same-sex marriage, legalized it in all 50 states and required states to honor out of state same-sex marriage licenses. I’m not sure where you’ve been since 2015…I almost thought this was a post from before 2015 but nope. 2021. Strange. Especially since the Biden administration hasn’t issued any new policies on same-sex marriage that I’m aware. Not sure why they’d need to.
Before and after the repeal of DOMA and allowing same-sex marriages, the military said that chaplains would not have to perform same-sex marriages if it would violate their religious beliefs.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/same-sex-marriage-ruling-extends-all-u-s-military-bases-n382601
Prior to the ruling, the DoD allowed same sex marriages on bases in states that allowed them. After 2015, they were allowed on all bases. “Any military chaplain or clergy can refuse to perform a same sex marriage “if it is not in line with the tenets of their faith.” But same-sex couples are free to pick their own clergy member to perform their ceremony.”
This is from 2018, a chaplain did get accused of discrimination by the IO when this was investigated: https://www.armytimes.com/news/2018/04/19/army-chaplain-faces-same-sex-discrimination-claim-lawyer-says-he-was-following-army-guidance/
Technically did follow military policy and he found an alternative in that they could go to the next retreat available conducted by an affirming chaplain. He was cleared of the dereliction of duty charges which were dismissed.
Everything I am reading says that per the DoD, chaplains have never been required to perform any and every wedding. I found an opinion piece by a chaplain who said in his 30 year career he did decline to perform several marriage ceremonies and that a repeal of DOMA wouldn’t change that ability.
If a chaplain refuses to perform a ceremony, it sounds like they have to find an alternative for the servicemember(s).
“I bring to light these questions, and I'll pose another with Muslims and being able to marry up to 4-wives. Why not permit? Obviously, the DoD wants to include what society has seemingly come to accept with some activity, but Catholicism has yet to take on. However, Muslim activities are held back by the DoD, e.g., 4-wives... Why?” – In the US, you legally cannot marry more than one person at a time so this question is moot. The military will only recognize LEGAL spouses. LEGAL dependents. So if anyone (not just Muslims) believes in polygamy, they legally can only have one spouse. They might religiously have more than one. Or spiritually have more than one. But legally no. Only a legal spouse is recognized. If someone is on active duty and has more than one “spouse” they could potentially get an adultery charge. I mean, technically if one of the “spouses” got upset or the legal spouse and reported it.
What “moral/immoral” matters are okay for some and not all? Please explain.
Same sex marriages have been legal in the US since 2015. June 26, 2015 is when the SCOTUS struck down all state bans on same-sex marriage, legalized it in all 50 states and required states to honor out of state same-sex marriage licenses. I’m not sure where you’ve been since 2015…I almost thought this was a post from before 2015 but nope. 2021. Strange. Especially since the Biden administration hasn’t issued any new policies on same-sex marriage that I’m aware. Not sure why they’d need to.
Before and after the repeal of DOMA and allowing same-sex marriages, the military said that chaplains would not have to perform same-sex marriages if it would violate their religious beliefs.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/same-sex-marriage-ruling-extends-all-u-s-military-bases-n382601
Prior to the ruling, the DoD allowed same sex marriages on bases in states that allowed them. After 2015, they were allowed on all bases. “Any military chaplain or clergy can refuse to perform a same sex marriage “if it is not in line with the tenets of their faith.” But same-sex couples are free to pick their own clergy member to perform their ceremony.”
This is from 2018, a chaplain did get accused of discrimination by the IO when this was investigated: https://www.armytimes.com/news/2018/04/19/army-chaplain-faces-same-sex-discrimination-claim-lawyer-says-he-was-following-army-guidance/
Technically did follow military policy and he found an alternative in that they could go to the next retreat available conducted by an affirming chaplain. He was cleared of the dereliction of duty charges which were dismissed.
Everything I am reading says that per the DoD, chaplains have never been required to perform any and every wedding. I found an opinion piece by a chaplain who said in his 30 year career he did decline to perform several marriage ceremonies and that a repeal of DOMA wouldn’t change that ability.
If a chaplain refuses to perform a ceremony, it sounds like they have to find an alternative for the servicemember(s).
“I bring to light these questions, and I'll pose another with Muslims and being able to marry up to 4-wives. Why not permit? Obviously, the DoD wants to include what society has seemingly come to accept with some activity, but Catholicism has yet to take on. However, Muslim activities are held back by the DoD, e.g., 4-wives... Why?” – In the US, you legally cannot marry more than one person at a time so this question is moot. The military will only recognize LEGAL spouses. LEGAL dependents. So if anyone (not just Muslims) believes in polygamy, they legally can only have one spouse. They might religiously have more than one. Or spiritually have more than one. But legally no. Only a legal spouse is recognized. If someone is on active duty and has more than one “spouse” they could potentially get an adultery charge. I mean, technically if one of the “spouses” got upset or the legal spouse and reported it.
What “moral/immoral” matters are okay for some and not all? Please explain.
Same-Sex Marriage Ruling Extends to all U.S. Military Bases
The Supreme Court's legalization of same-sex marriage paves the way for ceremonies on all U.S. military bases.
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Thank you my friend SGT Jim Ramge, MBA for posting a thoughtful question.
1. As those of us very familiar with history understand, the laws of the land don't always seem reasonable and often don't line up with the tenets of faith in Christianity, Judaism, and even Islam [where Muslims are a minority as in this nation].
2. Objections due to conscience have been upheld at the supreme court for limited issues such as being forced to perform induced abortions, forced to counsel for or against induced abortion.
3. Doing what is right, noble and true to your faith often comes at a cost - from freedom to jail.
4. Individual chaplains and the faith they represent will need to come t terms for what they will do. Hopefully as in induced abortion, as long as there are chaplains who can perform a ceremony in good conscience then I hope those whose faith prohibits them form performing said ceremony will be permitted to do so.
FYI Maj Bill Smith, Ph.D. MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. PO1 H Gene Lawrence SMSgt David A Asbury TSgt David L. CH (MAJ) William Beaver SMSgt Lawrence McCarter SGT Steve McFarland PO2 (Join to see) PO2 Frederick Dunn SPC Michael Duricko, Ph.D SSG Franklin Briant SFC Chuck Martinez LTC (Join to see) LTC Wayne Brandon SGT James Murphy
1. As those of us very familiar with history understand, the laws of the land don't always seem reasonable and often don't line up with the tenets of faith in Christianity, Judaism, and even Islam [where Muslims are a minority as in this nation].
2. Objections due to conscience have been upheld at the supreme court for limited issues such as being forced to perform induced abortions, forced to counsel for or against induced abortion.
3. Doing what is right, noble and true to your faith often comes at a cost - from freedom to jail.
4. Individual chaplains and the faith they represent will need to come t terms for what they will do. Hopefully as in induced abortion, as long as there are chaplains who can perform a ceremony in good conscience then I hope those whose faith prohibits them form performing said ceremony will be permitted to do so.
FYI Maj Bill Smith, Ph.D. MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. PO1 H Gene Lawrence SMSgt David A Asbury TSgt David L. CH (MAJ) William Beaver SMSgt Lawrence McCarter SGT Steve McFarland PO2 (Join to see) PO2 Frederick Dunn SPC Michael Duricko, Ph.D SSG Franklin Briant SFC Chuck Martinez LTC (Join to see) LTC Wayne Brandon SGT James Murphy
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
PO2 Frederick Dunn - Fred, my first thought is this, our Constitution was written under those men whom had Christian beliefs. But as we drift further and further into a nation of age, we move away from what, I believe, personally that is, for those whom signed the Declaration had intended - however, stated, that is why we have SCOTUS, to ensure that we stay true to the signatory wishes of the original penned Declaration - LOL!
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
LTC Stephen F. - My Friend & Brother Stephen, knew I could count on you to keep me straight! I just thought I’d ask as question as it arose in the news... Did know it seems the the DoD had already hashed this one out years ago, or so it seems.
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Well first off, in regards to marriage. The clergy simply perform a ceremony to make the marriage fit within the religion, but nothing legally happens. It is the town/county that legally marries people and that is what is used by DEERS to handle who is married to whom in the DoD - regardless of which or if any religion was involved. So it really doesn't matter to the DoD what a religion says.
You can't legally be married to more than one person at a time in the US, despite what a religion might say, the government only allows 1 and recognizes 1.
You can't legally be married to more than one person at a time in the US, despite what a religion might say, the government only allows 1 and recognizes 1.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
Jeff, have to agree to disagree with your statement on the clergy, DEERS and DoD, for my time and prior, we were permitted to get married in the church on base. My parents are still in DEERS as proof. That said, rules change, and I can agree if they have, and will! Where my contention is with as some have stated within the last 24-hrs, is that those serving have orders, and would basically face UCMJ for not performing their duty.
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CW2 (Join to see)
SGT Jim Ramge, MBA - I'm not 100% on the time period but even when having clergy officiate a wedding, it's the marriage license applied for through the governing body that is the actual marriage.
When it comes down to it, the persons getting married are making a CHOICE to use clergy in their wedding, it is not required. Religion is, and always will be, a private matter and only is an issue to people (clergy or general population) because they choose to let it be an issue.
When it comes down to it, the persons getting married are making a CHOICE to use clergy in their wedding, it is not required. Religion is, and always will be, a private matter and only is an issue to people (clergy or general population) because they choose to let it be an issue.
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SGT Jim Ramge, MBA
Thank you for the clarification - done it twice and never paid attention I guess as the women had to do all the planning for some reason, LOL!
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