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Long story short, our 1SG left our unit and the command got them a going away gift. Our 1LT told everyone they WILL sign it before going home. Some of my soldiers didn’t agree with this 1SG not like them.
Can the signature of something like this be considered a lawful order? Just picking y’all’s brains. I could care less but curious with how the Army would view this if a soldier was adamant not to sign.
Can the signature of something like this be considered a lawful order? Just picking y’all’s brains. I could care less but curious with how the Army would view this if a soldier was adamant not to sign.
JAG
Career Counselor
Career Advice
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 22
I'm not going to restate the answer I and others gave before as this is a variation on the, "Can your command make you clean someone’s house?" question*, but I will emphasize one part of it - Will you get into 'trouble' for not doing it - likely (probably every crap job the 1LT has comes your way or other imaginative stuff...)
However, the answers that MSG (Join to see) and MSG (Join to see) are dead on.
Is is right? No. You should never have to force people to sign a card. If I was that LT's commander, I'd have a few words with him. It sounds like the 1LT doesn't understand leadership very well and probably needs some refresher training.
One phrase you'll probably hear over and over again in your career - "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" Simply put, are the results you're going to get worth the effort you put in or the problems you're going to cause?
Can you say "No, I'm not going to do it"? Absolutely. As MSG (Join to see) said, I'd really like to see the results that happen to the XO if this is pushed up the channels for official punishment.
However, "is the juice worth the squeeze"? You're going to alienate the unit XO (assume it's the XO) and what do you get? Well, you let the leadership know who's right! Stand on that moral high-ground but don't expect any favors that you'll ask for in the future from leadership if they are the petty type (and it sounds like this is a petty situation on both sides).
I'm reminded of a nugget of wisdom that was shared by an E-5 as I sat in on her court martial when I was a young LT. I recall her saying, "I never thought I was giving up my freedom when I signed up to protect the freedom of others".
The military isn't fair. You're going to have a lot of hard choices you have to make in your career even if you aren't put in any untenable positions most never wish on others. Simply making choices of career over family, friends or self is hard enough and will cause you much consternation.
Don't sweat the small stuff, and believe me, signing a card of someone you don't like (or even dislike) is incredibly small stuff. If you want to feel morally superior, scrawl some chicken-scratch and nobody will ever know the difference.
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* https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/can-your-command-make-you-clean-someone-s-house?urlhash=7912446
However, the answers that MSG (Join to see) and MSG (Join to see) are dead on.
Is is right? No. You should never have to force people to sign a card. If I was that LT's commander, I'd have a few words with him. It sounds like the 1LT doesn't understand leadership very well and probably needs some refresher training.
One phrase you'll probably hear over and over again in your career - "Is the juice worth the squeeze?" Simply put, are the results you're going to get worth the effort you put in or the problems you're going to cause?
Can you say "No, I'm not going to do it"? Absolutely. As MSG (Join to see) said, I'd really like to see the results that happen to the XO if this is pushed up the channels for official punishment.
However, "is the juice worth the squeeze"? You're going to alienate the unit XO (assume it's the XO) and what do you get? Well, you let the leadership know who's right! Stand on that moral high-ground but don't expect any favors that you'll ask for in the future from leadership if they are the petty type (and it sounds like this is a petty situation on both sides).
I'm reminded of a nugget of wisdom that was shared by an E-5 as I sat in on her court martial when I was a young LT. I recall her saying, "I never thought I was giving up my freedom when I signed up to protect the freedom of others".
The military isn't fair. You're going to have a lot of hard choices you have to make in your career even if you aren't put in any untenable positions most never wish on others. Simply making choices of career over family, friends or self is hard enough and will cause you much consternation.
Don't sweat the small stuff, and believe me, signing a card of someone you don't like (or even dislike) is incredibly small stuff. If you want to feel morally superior, scrawl some chicken-scratch and nobody will ever know the difference.
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* https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/can-your-command-make-you-clean-someone-s-house?urlhash=7912446
Can your command make you clean someone’s house? | RallyPoint
So a buddy of mine is watching another troops home & dog while he’s in the field and the troops wife is gone. The first day he goes over to let the dog out he find that the house is disgusting, dog feces everywhere, trash all over the place just generally nasty. So my buddy tells his NCO that he doesn’t know what to do because he doesn’t want to go back to that house. Well his platoon leadership for rear d says that everybody is going to...
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SGT James LeFebvre
Well said, sir. Do I think it's a jerk move from the LT? Yeah, I do. Would I scratch something on the card? Yeah, just go with generics, not a molehill worth tripping over. I can count how many cards I've seen/signed in my 11 years in on one hand.
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SFC Howard Holmes
As Sgt. LeFebvre wrote, pick your battles. You don't even have to really sign it with your name, just draw lines or something to make a point, but save yourself some grief, scribble it and move on. Now, my son was an infantryman with the 1st ID. They were at NTC for train up for Africa. He had full battle rattle, plus the metal plate inserts in the vests. He stepped in a pretty deep hole and his back fractured. When they got back to Riley, a SGM and LTC tried forcing him to sign a fraudulent enlistment document, and threatened him with NJP/UCMJ action, just scaring the piss out of him, because he was only an E-2. I told him, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES is he to sign that document. I was assigned to Recruiting at the time and told him if they tried anything, I would take emergency leave and would be there ASAP. He told them what I told him to, that he had no back problems prior to enlistment, and that I had all of his sports physicals he was required to take as he played soccer and baseball in High School, so they got off of that. Some Col. at the Medical Facility submitted documentation to be forwarded to Knox for a medical discharge. His CSM and the Lt.Col. intercepted the packet and refused to send it up. I did not know about this. They then had him in their office and forced him to sign some document - still not even certain what it was, but it wasn't a fraudulent enlistment document. They had him in the office for more than 8 hours, wouldn't let him call anybody, use the restroom, or eat until he signed it. So after 8 hours he signed it. Again, he was only a PV2 and they scared the S*&t out of him. He was discharged but not medically.
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This is one of those situations where it could go either way. Making someone sign a gift...well, that's just being petty. Not wanting to sign it because of no love lost (from either direction), that's petty as well. I don't rightly see it as a lawful order nor do I see it as an unlawful order. Personally, I'd love to see the 1LT really try and push UCMJ for this. They'd probably get laughed at and possibly chewed up a bit. It all boils down to a hill to die on and how petty people want to be.
Personally, I think this is one of those "go along to get along" kind of deals where just signing it and driving on with the day will not break the bank. But, that's just me.
Personally, I think this is one of those "go along to get along" kind of deals where just signing it and driving on with the day will not break the bank. But, that's just me.
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SGM (Join to see)
Agreed.
Playing the "who can be the most petty" never solved a problem.
I assumed the UCMJ question was purely theoretical
Playing the "who can be the most petty" never solved a problem.
I assumed the UCMJ question was purely theoretical
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SPC (Join to see)
Yes. JAG would laugh and after laughing grab a coffee and talk about how the 1LT should just write a sworn statement signed by a witness that the SM refused to sign a gift just so the COL could also get a laugh.
Could this be written up for an NJP? Yes. Should it? No. Any strong BLO would kick it back for not having appropriate supporting documentation such as counselings so as not to get spanked in a court-martial by TDS. On top of that forcing a Soldier to sign a card for a gift presumably.
Additionally there are options you can take when a SM refuses to sign anything official. Typically it's just a note on a counseling, a sworn statement, or a memo explaining the situation also signed by a witness.
If on a counseling, it's easy to just bring in another NCO or officer in the presence of the SM and just write on the counseling, "RNK Last refused to sign". Then the witnesses sign and date. Carry on.
Could this be written up for an NJP? Yes. Should it? No. Any strong BLO would kick it back for not having appropriate supporting documentation such as counselings so as not to get spanked in a court-martial by TDS. On top of that forcing a Soldier to sign a card for a gift presumably.
Additionally there are options you can take when a SM refuses to sign anything official. Typically it's just a note on a counseling, a sworn statement, or a memo explaining the situation also signed by a witness.
If on a counseling, it's easy to just bring in another NCO or officer in the presence of the SM and just write on the counseling, "RNK Last refused to sign". Then the witnesses sign and date. Carry on.
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SrA James Cannon
I'll agree with all of this. Personally, I'd just sign the thing in a way that is completely illegible that it was my signature.
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The fact that your leadership is forcing your Soldiers to sign speaks volumes on the legacy your former 1SG left behind.
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SPC (Join to see)
Very fair point. I remember when one of my old 1SG's was done with his time and reverted to MSG. Right before that happened people got him all kinds of stuff of their own volition.
Custom morale flag with a certificate stating where it was flown and signed by a lot of people.
Custom Zippo lighter with a modified unit logo on it with his name.
Bottle of whiskey and cigars.
Personalized challenge coins and challenge poker chips, I guess those are still coins.
People liked him and it showed at the end.
I do recall signing a card for someone I didn't like or respect and all they got was a squiggly line that you couldn't even tell it was me that signed it.
Custom morale flag with a certificate stating where it was flown and signed by a lot of people.
Custom Zippo lighter with a modified unit logo on it with his name.
Bottle of whiskey and cigars.
Personalized challenge coins and challenge poker chips, I guess those are still coins.
People liked him and it showed at the end.
I do recall signing a card for someone I didn't like or respect and all they got was a squiggly line that you couldn't even tell it was me that signed it.
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SPC Stiv ChenRobbins
SPC (Join to see) - That is how my signature always looks, so the squiggly line thing wouldn't tell anyone anything new...
This who kerfuffle is common in civilian life. No laws or regulations apply in that world, but you still have people who make it an issue, from both sides of the coin.
This who kerfuffle is common in civilian life. No laws or regulations apply in that world, but you still have people who make it an issue, from both sides of the coin.
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SSG Mark G Smith
That was my thought MSG. The 1LT's behavior speaks volumes about the 1SG who had the responsibility of getting the 1LT started on the right track. Whatever happens with the card for the 1SG, the road this 1LT is on is going to be a rough one.
I've gone toe to toe with CPTs for bullshit like this.
I've gone toe to toe with CPTs for bullshit like this.
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