Posted on Apr 7, 2014

Why do some NCOs feel that they have an MD when dealing with their Troop's Profiles?

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I have experienced this personally throughout my career and seen it in my NCOs as well.  When a Soldier has a Profile, some leaders become self-accredited doctors. Once, I was in a minor accident and had some nasty whiplash.  I got the standard, Motrin + Profile x 2 weeks.  I went back to doing PT after the Profile ends and basically destroyed my neck doing one sit-up.  I was then counseled by my NCOIC (An E-5 at the time) for malingering.  His reasoning was that I couldn't have hurt myself so badly so I was faking.  He let up when I went back to the clinic and got a good diagnosis and meds. On other occasions, I have been told to do exercises that I cannot do so I do something else that works out the same muscle groups.  Several times, I have had senior NCOs yell at me (This was before I became a Warrant) and told me to do the exercise they called.  I explained I was on Profile and was then told to show it.  I didn't have a copy on me so I was told I had to do the exercise.  Of course I didn't and nobody has ever shown me a reg that stipulates that I have to carry around my profile. This happens a lot to other Soldiers, especially Junior Soldiers.  I have counseled several of my NCOs that have done this.  I told them that they don't have a medical degree so they couldn't assess the Troop until they had one.  It pisses me off when I observe this so I kill it ASAP. Back to my question in the title: Why do some NCOs feel that they have an MD when dealing with their Troop's Profiles? Has anyone else experienced this?  Done this?  Seen this?  Why does this occur?

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Profiles

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NCOs

Posted 10 y ago

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Responses: 38

1SG (Join to see)

Posted 10 y ago

Chief this a tough topic to pinpoint any specific "correct" answer. I agree that some NCOs think they are doctors and know best! I assure you that I am not one of them.

However there are some doctors that just don't know how to write in a profile form to convey what they are really trying to make the leaders understand. I have even had civilian doctors write profiles that are just not authorized. An example: I had a Soldier who (amongst many other issues) just didn't like to shave and had a shaving profile (possibly a legit need, which I did not question) his beard was too long and I told him that it needed to be trimmed to 1/8 inch. He whipped out his profile and the doctor had put that he could have a 1/2" beard. No where is this even authorized.

Recently here in FT Lee a doctor gave a Soldier a memo stating that due to shoulder surgery he does not have to be in tolerance with AWCP. Also a no-go! If an NCO does not sometimes question "medical professionals" somewhere along the line they will be out of control with profiles.

Again, I do not think it is that NCOs think they are DRs, but that there needs to be a good checks and balances process when these "MD having doctors" are trying to implement rules for us.

If it was not for HIPPA I would post a profile that I saw a few years back. It was very clear that this Soldier told the Dr what he wanted on his profile. Stated he could not work longer than eight hours at a time, and that he could not wear a military uniform for mare than eight hours at a time. Went on to say that he could not sit, stand, lay for more than 20 minutes at a time. This particular Soldier had a 35 minute drive to work. How did he make it to work if he couldn't sit for more than 20 minutes? I let it go (with a plan) for 1 week. On week two had him re-evaluated and the profile remained in effect. So that day I made him stay on post in the barracks so that he wouldn't break his profile by sitting more than 20 minutes driving to work. By the end of the day his profile was changed.

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SSG Genaro Negrete

10 y

It does take an NCO to properly scrutinize some profiles to ensure regulations are met and adhered to. Sometimes, this regulatory check seems to bleed over into "deciding" what the soldier can and can't physically do.

In regards to the soldier that was excused from the AWCP, the following is an excerpt from AR 40-501 Standards of Medical Fitness:

7–13. Physical profile and the Army Weight Control Program
The DA Form 3349 will not be used to excuse Soldiers from the provisions of AR 600–9. The AR 600–9 contains a
standard memorandum for completion by a physician if there is an underlying or associated disease process that is the
cause of the overweight condition. The inability to perform all APFT events or the use of certain medications is not
generally considered sufficient medical rationale to exempt a Soldier from AR 600–9

AR 600-9 para 3-3 has a list of exemptions which include combat amputees, pregnant soldiers, and IET soldiers (for the first 180 days of service) among other things. It still states that the soldier needs to maintain a soldierly appearance.

It also includes an exception for soldiers that have been hospitalized:

3–16. Hospitalization
Personnel who meet this regulation’s standards and are hospitalized for 30 continuous days or more will be exempt
from the standards for the duration of the hospitalization and the recovery period as specified by their profile, not to
exceed 90 days from discharge from the hospital. If at the end of the specified recovery period the Soldier exceeds the
allowable body fat standard, a DA Form 268 will be initiated on the Soldier and he or she will be enrolled in the
ABCP.

The Army makes an allowance for soldiers going through hospitalization and a short time after.

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SFC Mark Merino

>1 y

Fantastic input SSG Genaro Negrete !

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MSG (Join to see)

>1 y

SSG Genaro Negrete - absolutely love this it is one of my favorite topics fat boy and profile they go hand in hand, but because the regs are written so that only a lawyer could understand many commanders do not, you get a sm overweight, initial counselling, send to medical for nutritional counselling or find out if it a med condition, spend 6 months remedial pt, doesn't make it now another 3-6 months discharge, as far as active i dont know but in reserves/ng unbelievable

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SSG Genaro Negrete

>1 y

MSG (Join to see) , from what I've seen in the military, unit commanders have a huge amount of responsibility and leeway in how they administer their commands. In a perfect world, this means that commanders can make the best determination in any given situation in the accomplishment of their mission. In the real world, these commanders rely on input from NCO's. The whole system works when every member in the decision chain understands the soldier and how that SM will fit into the teams mission. Any part of that fails, you get soldiers that develop a near parasitic relationship with the military and its health care system as well as soldiers that had a bright future snuffed out because of one or two lines of regulation that were narrowly interpreted against them.

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SFC (Join to see)

Posted 10 y ago

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I'm pretty much a doctor.   You are right, NCOs are not doctors but they need to be pretty good at deciphering profiles and determine what exercises a Soldier can and cannot do.  Profiles don't indicate every exercise that cannot be done.  We do need to be careful though not to further injure Soldiers, as this can cause greater issues!

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SGT (Join to see)

10 y

This. This all day long.

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SSG (Join to see)

Posted 10 y ago

I think this particular issue comes down to two things: first, knowing your Soldiers. Most issues that most folks end up complaining about would be resolved if leadership would take a minute to pay attention to their Soldiers. If my Soldier came back to me after an accident or something serious and told me that the TMC just told them to essentially drive water and drive on, there would be some issues. ..with that, there are malingerers. Knowing your Soldiers and seeing what they are capable of under normal, healthy circumstances prevents us from throwing that label on folks that it shouldn't be thrown on, and identifying the people that that label truly fits.
The second is that, despite the urging of the most gung-ho NCO, the Army is a marathon, not a sprint. I would much rather a Soldier have the opportunity to get out of the Army on his or her own terms, and not on a medical chapter. I know what I am, and a doctor is not one of them. There is nothing so important that I have to put my Soldier's health in danger, especially for something like morning PT. If a Soldier of mine comes up to me saying he is hurt, he is going to the proper channels to get fixed, and he is going to follow that channel's guidance to the letter.

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Why do some NCOs feel that they have an MD when dealing with their Troop's Profiles?

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