Posted on Apr 12, 2014
Centralized Promotion Boards Promoting the best and brightest or only those that know the system?
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Shouldn't there be a human factor involved in promoting our Senior Level NCO's or are you just comfortable pushing forward a bunch of paper NCO's that have figured out how to work the system?
Posted in these groups: 
Promotions
Promotions
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 9
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Did you recently get passed over for promotion?
How exactly does a 'Paper NCO' work the system?
The Army's centralized promotion board system is an accurate system, for the most part.
My question to you would be, why can YOU accurately update YOUR records? I would see this as a failure on YOUR part and possibly on your Soldiers, too.
How exactly does a 'Paper NCO' work the system?
The Army's centralized promotion board system is an accurate system, for the most part.
My question to you would be, why can YOU accurately update YOUR records? I would see this as a failure on YOUR part and possibly on your Soldiers, too.
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SSG Daniel Deiler
MSG - Yes I did get passed over. Dissapointed yes, but I'm at peace with it. I believe in a higher power and the path laid before me at this moment does not include a promotion. No worries! :)
I can accurately update my records. To the best of my knowledge, they are. And I have had peers and seniors review and concur. They have offerered advice and I have followed said advice.
I can accurately update my records. To the best of my knowledge, they are. And I have had peers and seniors review and concur. They have offerered advice and I have followed said advice.
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SGM Matthew Quick
SSG Deiler,
If you're interested, I look at records and provide feedback.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/records-review-fy14-sfc-board
If you're interested, I look at records and provide feedback.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/records-review-fy14-sfc-board
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SSG Daniel Deiler
MSG,
Thank you in advance for your valuable time and feedback. I will take advantage of that offer.
Thank you in advance for your valuable time and feedback. I will take advantage of that offer.
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Seen far too many NCO's promoted that know how to fill their ERB's and hide their shortfalls/mis-steps while passing on those that have the experience and the trust from their subordinates. Promotions are not leadership based but education based. Show me an NCO's ERB that's filled and I'll show you an NCO that has NO clue as to how to use the education that's been given to them. If you don't use it you lose it. I'll take tactical knowledge all day vs. institutional knowledge.
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SSG Daniel Deiler
Thank you for your responses SFC Lantz and SFC Gilley! Great food for thought...
Unfortunately I only have my experience as a BDE S3 Operations NCO to draw upon and no hard statistics...but I'm not so much referring to civilian education as I am military education. After my experience in the 3 shop now for the past 3 years, I have looked at many an ERB and seen many NCO's who submit MTR's (Military Training Requests) for schooling that do nothing with that education other use it as another entry onto their ERB. It's great that they are diversifying themselves and enhancing their education, but a certificate of completion is only as good as the paper it's printed on. What I want to see are the leaders who complete their requested training and actuually USE it for something other than an ERB filler. One of the most overused classes I see is Battle Staff and MFT. Both courses are quite extensive at 30 days long and yet how many MTOE slots exist in a BDE for a Soldier that Battle Staff is necessary? I know how many exist in this BDE and that number is FAR below the number that are qualified. And how many of those MFT graduates have received their certification but have yet to lead even a single PT session? That's the kind of difference I was referring to between tactical and technical knowledge. It's great to have that technical knowledge from the classroom but I'm more concerned with HOW that great knowledge is being shared and employed?
I know it's not popular and I know it would take longer but Yes, I do believe every senior NCO should sit before a board. Like a qualification board. Have someone actually recommend the person for promotion. Or maybe not a "sit down" kind of board but something akin to the 360 Assessment that is done now. Make it a blind assessment that is sent to Soldiers, peers and leaders of the rated NCO's unit/section rather than the leader sending out invites. Or how about HRC puts a filter on all records for the board to review that do not include those NCO's who FAILED to even take the few minutes to validate their records? That would eliminate quite a few NCO's that are not deserving. If you cannot take 5 minutes to validate your own promotion file, why should the board take 5 minutes to look at your file? And furthermore why should the Army "repose special trust and confidence in the patriotism, valor, fidelity and professional excellence" of that particular NCO? How can anyone expect them to take care of our Soldiers if they cannot take care of themselves?
Unfortunately I only have my experience as a BDE S3 Operations NCO to draw upon and no hard statistics...but I'm not so much referring to civilian education as I am military education. After my experience in the 3 shop now for the past 3 years, I have looked at many an ERB and seen many NCO's who submit MTR's (Military Training Requests) for schooling that do nothing with that education other use it as another entry onto their ERB. It's great that they are diversifying themselves and enhancing their education, but a certificate of completion is only as good as the paper it's printed on. What I want to see are the leaders who complete their requested training and actuually USE it for something other than an ERB filler. One of the most overused classes I see is Battle Staff and MFT. Both courses are quite extensive at 30 days long and yet how many MTOE slots exist in a BDE for a Soldier that Battle Staff is necessary? I know how many exist in this BDE and that number is FAR below the number that are qualified. And how many of those MFT graduates have received their certification but have yet to lead even a single PT session? That's the kind of difference I was referring to between tactical and technical knowledge. It's great to have that technical knowledge from the classroom but I'm more concerned with HOW that great knowledge is being shared and employed?
I know it's not popular and I know it would take longer but Yes, I do believe every senior NCO should sit before a board. Like a qualification board. Have someone actually recommend the person for promotion. Or maybe not a "sit down" kind of board but something akin to the 360 Assessment that is done now. Make it a blind assessment that is sent to Soldiers, peers and leaders of the rated NCO's unit/section rather than the leader sending out invites. Or how about HRC puts a filter on all records for the board to review that do not include those NCO's who FAILED to even take the few minutes to validate their records? That would eliminate quite a few NCO's that are not deserving. If you cannot take 5 minutes to validate your own promotion file, why should the board take 5 minutes to look at your file? And furthermore why should the Army "repose special trust and confidence in the patriotism, valor, fidelity and professional excellence" of that particular NCO? How can anyone expect them to take care of our Soldiers if they cannot take care of themselves?
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MSG Martin C.
Well I could not disagree with you more. There are NCOs that get schooling at times that are not utilized properly but for the most part I know I used and still use mine. For example I am instructor and SGL certified but I no longer work at than academy but who can the CSM always count on teaching a class properly? me. Why because he knows that I am already certify to do just so. Senior NCOs are promoted based on potential can we lead troops, can we take care of equipment are we mature to handle the next level of responsibility? Having an ERB full of schools don't get you promoted to the Senior ranks your Soldiers get you promoted. I cannot speak for your unit or shop but all I can tell you is this quit looking at ERBs and compering success based on what you see arround your unit. 1. Everyone's career is different and unless you can read the last 5 NCOERS on every person on your CMF you will never know for sure how you fare. 2. Focus on what can you control i.e. Your own section, PT score, boards and Clubs. 3. Read the CMF specific AARs you will see there the real reason why certain individuals got promoted. Not to take anything away from you or your service but why should any one worry about how you feel about the system focus on your career not others career maybe you'll see the flaws on your records.
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1SG (Join to see)
SSG Deiler, I look at your profile and it appears that you have 20 years and are still a SSG? Is this the background of the question at hand?
As far as the NCOs you are talking about not using the training they receive is speculation at best! The Army has x amount of classes for each course every fiscal year, with class limitations on each. SO the Army has determined how many certified people they need in certain areas every year. If those NCOs have the opportunity to get a course despite the need of immediate application, they may use it in the future. What you don't see is how they apply their training once they PCS. What you also may not see is the lack of "qualified" people having to fill in because deployment cycles or PCSs in general has not allowed the "qualified" people to PCS and fill the slots. One could say the same for promotions in general. Take 13 Series for example, none of them were selected for SFC this year. You want to honestly tell me that somewhere in the Army there is not a SSG serving in a 13 series SFC slot? Doubtful!
I feel that senior NCOs do sit before a board when selected. It's called evaluation reports! In my opinion it is harder to shine on paper than it is in person. I have seen some slick talking, professional looking dirt bags in my 15 years. We are all being evaluated by a group of people that likely don't know us. How much more un biased could it be? The people looking at our records don't even decide if we get promoted or not. They simply score us based off our records. HRC figures out how many the Army needs from each MOS then they are pulled by score (in a nutshell) And trust me, they see that a NCO did X amount of schools the year before the board, and the NCOER shows they did not use the knowledge gained, it does not look good on them.
I can understand your frustration I guess, but to generalize the way you have, to me, is an indicator of why you are still where you are. (no disrespect intended)
As far as the NCOs you are talking about not using the training they receive is speculation at best! The Army has x amount of classes for each course every fiscal year, with class limitations on each. SO the Army has determined how many certified people they need in certain areas every year. If those NCOs have the opportunity to get a course despite the need of immediate application, they may use it in the future. What you don't see is how they apply their training once they PCS. What you also may not see is the lack of "qualified" people having to fill in because deployment cycles or PCSs in general has not allowed the "qualified" people to PCS and fill the slots. One could say the same for promotions in general. Take 13 Series for example, none of them were selected for SFC this year. You want to honestly tell me that somewhere in the Army there is not a SSG serving in a 13 series SFC slot? Doubtful!
I feel that senior NCOs do sit before a board when selected. It's called evaluation reports! In my opinion it is harder to shine on paper than it is in person. I have seen some slick talking, professional looking dirt bags in my 15 years. We are all being evaluated by a group of people that likely don't know us. How much more un biased could it be? The people looking at our records don't even decide if we get promoted or not. They simply score us based off our records. HRC figures out how many the Army needs from each MOS then they are pulled by score (in a nutshell) And trust me, they see that a NCO did X amount of schools the year before the board, and the NCOER shows they did not use the knowledge gained, it does not look good on them.
I can understand your frustration I guess, but to generalize the way you have, to me, is an indicator of why you are still where you are. (no disrespect intended)
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SSG Daniel Deiler
I was the schools NCO for awhile so I had to look at ERB's to validate MTR's. Since I had to look, I tried using them as a tool to see what others who had been promoted. That is one of the things I have heard repeatedly while at the NCO Academy and in the various units I've been in that should be done. I've heard so many times that we should find out what others have done to get promoted and there's your answer. I also was not trying to make this about "me" or my career but others as well to have a more balanced and accurate promotion system...it comes up every year and we see the same comments on the AAR's every year. In fact I honestly thought when I pulled up this years AAR comments I had accidentally pulled up last years because it read nearly the same. I would like to help myself, but I'm more interested in helping others get a leg up. I've come to the realization it probably will not happen for me, and I'm okay with that, but if I can help future NCO's and leaders I'm all about it.
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I will agree with your assertion, most NCOs don't know what a good NCOER looks like. This is an area where CSMs and 1SGs should mentor their NCOs. I am among those that learned only after several NCOERs later what a really effective NCOER looks like.
That being said, however, we have to accept the reality that the Army is getting smaller, and as a result, promotions are now, and will continue to be more competitive. Just simply "knowing your job" is not enough anymore. Civilian education, certifications, boards, and military schools, to name a few, are the "discriminators" that board members look for to determine who is near the top of the selectees and who is middle of the pack.
There are a great number of Soldiers and NCOs in our Army that do a great job, at their daily job. And that is good. But they have mediocre ASVAB scores, little or no civilian education, and few correspondence course hours. When the time comes for a board to select a SSG for SFC, will they pick that NCO, if there's only one last number? Or will they pick the one that has done something every year in addition to their job that shows the Army and the promotion boards they are working to progress to that next level? At the end of the day, the paper is all the board has to look at.
That being said, however, we have to accept the reality that the Army is getting smaller, and as a result, promotions are now, and will continue to be more competitive. Just simply "knowing your job" is not enough anymore. Civilian education, certifications, boards, and military schools, to name a few, are the "discriminators" that board members look for to determine who is near the top of the selectees and who is middle of the pack.
There are a great number of Soldiers and NCOs in our Army that do a great job, at their daily job. And that is good. But they have mediocre ASVAB scores, little or no civilian education, and few correspondence course hours. When the time comes for a board to select a SSG for SFC, will they pick that NCO, if there's only one last number? Or will they pick the one that has done something every year in addition to their job that shows the Army and the promotion boards they are working to progress to that next level? At the end of the day, the paper is all the board has to look at.
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