A rock & a hard place: Is "Grandfathered" really grandfathered when it comes to tattoos?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 19:19:15 -0500

Yes, I have posted about this before but I feel held back, scrutinized, and pretty much for the most part pissed off. I have seen pretty crappy individuals get picked up for drill, recruiting, and AIT PSG and not have any issues getting in and on one case here recently with a DUI from around 4 1/2 years ago I know him personally. Yes I did make the rank of Staff Sergeant fast and while some find that to be bad or wrong I worked my tail off to get where I am at no one gave me anything and I definitely didn't ask for a hand out not once. When I stand in front of my soldiers and they see me in any uniform I know in the back of my head that everything I got is because of me. I feel that I can stand in there with the best of them regardless of the MOS. I got denied by drill due to my tattoos, who's to say I am not better than the next man because he doesn't have tattoos?! because ink in our skin automatically makes me a shXt bag or not able to perform the job better right?.... I no longer have faith in really being "grandfathered". Only thing I ever wanted to do was dawn a round brown and go Airborne, is it wrong to want these things?.... I am here in Korea on my first PCS and things are just taking a weird turn for me. I was the guy that never wanted to miss pt if I had a pee test i'd pee quick and go catch my company on the run. I love the Army and the competition atmosphere around a lot of things. My ETS is 2016 so I am coming up on reenlistment and im strongly considering getting out I have never felt the want to get out of the military AT ALL! not one bit. But the whole culmination of things have made me do a 180. Any thoughts? any help with writing a resume? I want to put myself out there way ahead of time so that I don't just get out and be stuck. I have never had to write a resume, maybe even point me in the right direction if you could? any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance...

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 7:25 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 19:25:18 -0500

I feel for you, SSG Private RallyPoint Member. They can change the policy, but that doesn't mean that they change the minds of everyone in the Army. It's something like prejudice. We can declare that it's wrong, but can we really change people's minds? Not really. It's up to the individual.

Hearing that you didn't get assignments you wanted because of your tattoos - if that's really the case, and not your "imagination" working on overtime - confirms my suspicions that feelings about tattoos trump grandfathering policies.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Jan 22 at 2015 9:09 PM

SFC Kenneth Hunnell — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 21:09:54 -0500

You need to learn to have patience. Maybe you are trying to get to the top to quickly. Stop and smell the roses, there is a lot more to life than getting to the top first

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 10:51 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 22:51:56 -0500

Do you really think all those 'self identification' documents are being uploaded in your IPERMS for any reason other then future discrimination by a board(s), be it a review board, a promotion board, continuation of service board, etc etc? Uncle sam shafting its own.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 11:20 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 23:20:05 -0500

First of all...grandfathered does not equal "forgiven" in some individual's minds, you can't change that.

I ask you - what are your tats? Where are your tats? Do the locations push/cross the current boundaries set by regs -ignoring the fact you are grandfathered? Do the designs cross/push the boundaries of the current regs - again ignoring the fact you are grandfathered? Look at yourself from the board member's point of view. They don't know you from Adam. They see your jacket (file), they see the pictures that may or may not display tats. Are you causing the board members to do additional work to ensure that you are truely grandfathered and within regs? OR...are you losing opportunities to the individual in front of them that is well within regs in all aspects - in fact he/she is the poster child of the "new" Army. Which would you chose? The one that makes the board member do the work to ensure YOU are within regs or do you select the easy choice; the one that shows they are WELL within regs and isn't pushing boundaries tryin to tell a story about lost friends/comrades with tattoes. Forget what you think you know about boards - understand that perception is often 99% of what people believe, they ignore facts.

What perception are you projecting? Are you challenging every leader above you "take me as I am - tats and all - because my tats are my life story!" Tattoes have been around as long as there have been those who want to "tell their story" - but that story telling has never been without push back from those who just don't get them.

From what you're telling about your career to this point you've done exceptionally well - that speaks highly of your skills and abilities. As you gain rank you also have to learn new skills and you actually get graded on a higher sloped graph because the opportunities are fewer. When you go before a board at your point in your career it's not what makes you the best choice -... it's what eliminates you from promotion.

So, you have to decide - do you want the promotion or not? Or are your tattoes more important? Bad part is: sooner or later you're gonna have to do some clean up, etc on those tats anyway...they never seem to last and hold what once was.

I don't have a dog in this particular hunt - I've know sailors and soldiers all the way to Admiral that had tats. Don't personally know any Admirals with neck tats or major tats that are on display with short sleeved shirts (though I'm sure there might be one or two - I just haven't met them). Most with tats that I've ever met were smart hard charging - but the few that were dirt bags...were serious f*()ing dirt bags and left everyone around them with a bad taste in their mouth for years after the dirt bags were booted out.

Sleep on it for a few days - don't make a decision mad.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jan 23 at 2015 8:09 AM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 08:09:18 -0500

Sadly the best advice ever given me was this: Tattoos are great, just dont get any that can be seen in short sleeve open collar. Not because the military has something against it (and they do), but because professional civilians companies do! If you don't mind working blue collar jobs for low pay when you leave the military get all the tat's you want, if you want to work a management job, teach, or be a professional...that sleeve has got to go. This is the same reason why mega producer/songwriter/performer Pharrell Williams has his tattoos removed.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Jan 23 at 2015 8:29 AM

SFC Collin McMillion — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 08:29:38 -0500

Personally, I could care less about your tattoos, if you have my back , then I'll have yours. A brother in arms is a brother in arms. Both of us still bleed red!

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Jan 23 at 2015 8:33 PM

SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 20:33:08 -0500

SSG Jones, you pose an interesting argument. I'm not familiar with the tatoo issue because it wasn't such a prevelant issue when I was in (retired in 2000). I was actually shocked a couple of years ago when I went to Ft. Campbell and saw a lot of soldiers (mostly enlisted ranks) with tats all over their arms. I'd never seen that before in my 20 years of active duty. I'm not saying it was bad, just different. From my studies of history, different isn't always perceived as good; however, the difference in today's Army doesn't seem so vast.

I'm convinced DA selection boards for special duty assignments shouldn't really care about whether an individual has tattoos provided they don't encourage illegal or immoral activities. For example, the same boards selecting drill sergeants also select recruiters. I'm sure you can understand how the civilian community may not be as acceptive of a recruiter in class B uniform entering the high school with more ink than the gang members we can't recruit. Furthermore, the NCO with a visible tats may not present the image to some parents they have for their sons and daughters. Just shooting straight with you.

Having been a Drill Sergeant and a Recruiter on active duty, I have to tell you that these things matter. I'll also admit they matter more to some people than to most of us.

I'd also agree with the posts pertaining to getting out and civilian life. If you've earned your bachelors degree and/or masters degree, you have a chance out here to transition smoother into a job commensurate with your pay and leadership experience. Otherwise, I'd reconsider.

Best wishes! Thank you for your service!

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Jan 23 at 2015 10:47 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 22:47:09 -0500

I have seen some great patriotic work done on some of the finest service members this Nation ever produced. One had 5 combat tours under his belt and less than 10 years in the service. The man was hard as woodpecker lips and was also a great dad, husband, and neighbor. I'm sorry, but the DoD has a set on them for allowing tattoos when they need warfighters and then saying you have to be as wholesome and clean cut as CPT America. It's a tattoo. If it isn't EO complaint worthy, seek OER bullets elsewhere.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jan 23 at 2015 10:55 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 22:55:08 -0500

I hate to phrase it this way, because I love tats. I have my own. But I saw the proverbial writing on the wall.

Visible tattoos are not 'perceived' as professional. Emphasis added. It doesn't make you less professional. It just reduces your overall perception of professionalism.

In the civilian sector, if you have a neck tattoo, it is unlikely you will be hired as a middle manager for anything. If you have extensive visible tattoos anywhere, such as your arms, the same applies. The military has more visible areas than the civilian sector. What you could just hide with long sleeve shirts and pants there, won't work here.

That said, if I take you without tattoos, and you with tattoos and stand you side by side, with no other context, and have to make a first impression. You without tattoos will win every time. Tattoos do not present a Professional image. I'm sorry they don't.

Coming from a Marine, who loves tattoos. From a culture who loves getting EGAs on everything, every chance we get... it doesn't.

So. From a Professional Perception standpoint, and only that, there's a reason.

Now, that doesn't make you any worse at your job. It doesn't make the other person any better. However it does make him more COMPETITIVE. And that is a completely different playing field.

Competitive versus better.

You can be a heck of a lot better, while someone else is way more competitive, because they know how to game the system.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Mar 26 at 2015 2:32 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Thu, 26 Mar 2015 14:32:42 -0400

I'm offended by your term "grandfathered." Why cant it be "grandmothered?" This is so sexist.

Response by Pvt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2017 1:46 PM

Pvt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 Dec 2017 13:46:42 -0500

Hey staff Sergeant I definitely understand Your dilemma,not that I’ve been Exactly in what you’re in but I have been in some scenarios that leave you in a position where either decision choose to make you think it’s wrong and it’s a shitty one to be in.what are you going to do if you leave the arm services? At this point how long of you been in? If you’re not happy if you don’t like the changes that been undergone which I can completely understand I’m somebody is not too fond of changes myself especially negative… You got to decide if you’re ready to commit to another big chunky life or not or if there something out there in life you can use your skills toward so you’re not starving at the very bottom that’s gonna make you happier. It’s tough to shut off the soldier it’ll be there as long as you live so try to put your credentials they use outside of the military not make it wasted time and maybe find something that shares the aspects of the Armed Forces you like without The bullshit,