Am I being targeted?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 13:34:46 -0400

So today I received a counseling pushing for UCMJ action by my NCO for defending my peer. Me and my peer and another NCO where having a conversation when my NCO intervene started yelling and blew our conversation out of proportion. So I simply ask if she was having a bad day and why she was accusing my peer of something he never said. So she wrote me a counseling stating that I allowed vulgar language, and EO and I should of correct my peer(which nothing on those lines where mention). Crazy part in that room there was 5 other SM that where commenting in our conversation( which I mentioned to her when getting counseled and got no response)but I’m the only one getting in trouble for not correcting my peer. I was thinking maybe requesting sworn statements, or what should or can do?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 22 at 2020 1:41 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 13:41:55 -0400

Get statements from witnesses.

Response by SMSgt Keith Klug made Sep 22 at 2020 1:50 PM

SMSgt Keith Klug — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 13:50:00 -0400

Get statements immediately. You need to stop this before it happens again.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2020 2:07 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:07:12 -0400

Don't think about getting sworn statements. GET SWORN STATEMENTS

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 22 at 2020 2:32 PM

Maj John Bell — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:32:31 -0400

Good leaders don't counsel, reprimand or punish when they are in a heightened state of emotion. Based on your side of the story, she probably blew it. It sounds like she when from 0mph to 100mph in seconds. So... I'm wondering what was said, and how was it said and who said it, BEFORE she started yelling.

In my opinion, when you asked if she was "having a bad day", whether you knew it or not, you were challenging her authority and you did it publicly. You asked for an ass full of buckshot. Had you done that with me, and I was in your chain of command, I would have calmly told you to gather everyone between me and you in the chain of command at the end of the day, and report to me with them once the rest of the unit secured for the day.

As an officer, I wouldn't personally punish or reprimand you, unless I felt NJP was called for. But I would have you relate your side of the story to the NCO's and SNCO's. I'd pipe in where I thought you were off-base or omitting pertinent information. Then I'd turn to the senior SNCO and ask him to take whatever steps he/she felt were necessary so that this didn't happen again.

Smart subordinates know when to challenge authority and how to do it with tact. Unless it involves the potential for injury, damage to materiel or waste; or is illegal, IMMEDIATE INTELLIGENT OBEDIENCE is standard. Just as good leaders praise in public and reprimand in private, good subordinates offer immediate intelligent obedience, and discrete questions of "why? or WTF?" in private.

As far as any of the five soldiers in the room and the difference in her response:
_What was their part in the conversation?
_What was their supervisory relationship to your peer?
_Did any of them challenge the NCO?

Response by CPL Earl Kochis made Sep 22 at 2020 2:52 PM

CPL Earl Kochis — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:52:54 -0400

SF 1199s immediately!!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2020 2:56 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:56:55 -0400

Vulgar language in the Army?? Say it ain't so... SMH

First things first, why is an E-4 getting counselled for what an NCO said? That makes no sense. E'4's don't "allow" NCO's to do anything. If the NCO needed a counselling for his language, he should have received it himself. Second, unless what was said was racist or sexist or something like that, the commander will likely not care. However, if it did cross the line into sexual harassment or something like that, trouble could be on the way. Follow the advice of others and get sworn statements from those that were there while they can still remember it all. But if you weren't the one who said whatever it was, you shouldn't get in trouble. Remember, a counselling statement is just a record of a conversation. You can agree with it or not and hopefully you annotated your side of the story on the statement.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2020 3:28 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 15:28:53 -0400

There’s always two sides to every story, you may be innocent in your eyes. However, you could have came off disrespectful to that NCO. Just man up and take the punishment. Doubt your commander would impose ucmj for such a trivial issue

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2020 3:36 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 15:36:50 -0400

You also need to write down the series of events as you see them in the counseling, that way both of your signatures will be on it. There is the block there you get to write whatever you want. Use it, but be smart about it.

Not much to compare against but my higher was having trouble getting clearances processed, and started counseling soldiers for delinquent clearance updates. This included myself and a few other officers. So I laid it out there right in front of their face in the counseling with the dates, e-mails and chain of events. So yes, I signed the counseling statement but not without shedding light on the fact higher S2 wasn’t processing their end of the system which lead to the counseling statement.

If your side of the argument is true, put it in the counseling and the counseling will be effectively worthless.

I’ve seen counseling statements used as a bully method by folks, and that’s not what they are for. There needs to be corrective action and follow up, so when the failure happens again the supervisor counseling you covers their rear end. Bullies are usually not that motivated, and just use them as a way to administratively bully those Jr to them.

I think a sworn statement is not warranted at this point (depends on your peers and supporting NCO’s if they want to go that far), but a wisely writing rebuttal in the comments section of said counseling would make the supervisor have second thoughts about the path they want to go down.

Also… remember, to what degree can negative action be levied against you? Not even your 1SG can take money or rank, or even iPerm anything. They can make your life miserable but nothing permanent.

Sworn statement for vulgar language counseling rebuttal????? I presume a company level???? Really?????

Maybe I’m not the guy to comment on this if I were to see it as a reduction of rank process to come across my desk. Really????? Why am I reading this piece of sh@t fracking nonsense???

Response by SGM Jeff Bullard made Sep 22 at 2020 3:39 PM

SGM Jeff Bullard — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 15:39:46 -0400

Yes, I agree. Get all personnel that were witnesses to write sworn statements. MAKE copies!!!! Give a copy to the NCO, PSG, 1SG & Commander (open door policy). If they continue to push for an Article 15. You will go to legal prior to anything happening. Take copies to JAG. If all else fails request open door policy to see your CSM. This shouldn’t really go any further.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Sep 22 at 2020 4:01 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 16:01:51 -0400

Get Statements, and hold on. If nothing comes of it. I don’t know many 1SG or Commanders who would act on a single counseling for a questionable statement. If they bring you on the carpet ask to present the statement and witnesses.

Response by SSG Jimmy Cernich made Sep 22 at 2020 4:15 PM

SSG Jimmy Cernich — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 16:15:23 -0400

Get the statements asap

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Sep 22 at 2020 4:55 PM

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 16:55:59 -0400

If all of this is true, go get some sworn statements and, if you are actually recommended for UCMJ, don't hesitate to bring it to courts-marshall. Also, if any NCO is going to act like this, they need to be reported up your NCO support chain. This kind of ridiculous, overwrought behavior is nonsense. You should be able to use the same sworn statements when doing this. Just make sure all of the people who fill out the forms explain, in detail, the conversation, who was there, when it occurred, your actions/comments, and the inane response from the NCO.

Response by SFC Michael D. made Sep 22 at 2020 5:08 PM

SFC Michael D. — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 17:08:04 -0400

Sounds like you got off easy. Asking if she was having a bad day just escalated the situation. Know when to keep quite. When the anger passes then go back and see if you can explain yourself. In this situation, if you just took it and stayed silent, that would have been the end of it. If you still feel that you need to push this, there is a rebuttle area to fill out. I'd leave it alone and use it as a lesson of when to shut up.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Sep 22 at 2020 5:38 PM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 17:38:38 -0400

Are you being targeted specifically, no , I do not think so. You asked if she was having a bad day, when technically, if you were using vulgar language, it is a no no. Depending upon the language, like sexual body parts, gendered slurs, or sexual acts - your NCO has a moral and legal duty to squash it, and hold people present accountable for not intervening to squash it. By asking that question, in public, you questioned that NCO's authority, and in a way that can be deemed sexist. This has the earmarks of an unsafe work environment, where most people are accepting of this type of language, but one or two are uncomfortable, and feel pressured into accepting it. Sorry mate, technically, you are in the wrong on both accounts.

Response by SFC Frank Hart made Sep 22 at 2020 7:07 PM

SFC Frank Hart — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 19:07:29 -0400

Sworn Statements, Yes but have the other SM in the room write down what they saw and heard both before the NCO stepped in and after. You do the same.

Response by SGT Ricky Young made Sep 22 at 2020 7:52 PM

SGT Ricky Young — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 19:52:25 -0400

So what was said that was out of line? What pay grade is your NCO? Did you report it to your chain of command? I agree that you should get sworn statement's. Request to see your 1st Sergeant and give him the sworn statement's. How often does this NCO reprimand you compared to your peers.

Response by SFC Tony Bennett made Sep 22 at 2020 8:01 PM

SFC Tony Bennett — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 20:01:39 -0400

Unfortunately some females feel a need to compensate for being females. Not saying this is the case. But in my opinion, you most CERTAINLY should get sworn statements from those who were there and have first hand knowledge of what transpired. An NCO that butts into a conversation that has nothing to do with him/her is a sorry excuse for a leader. This one sounds like she has an axe to grind. Mind your P's and Q's. When an NCO behaves in this manner, you will have to protect yourself from unjust accusations and punishments. This sadly is nothing new. If possible record your interactions with this person or have someone else in close proximity as a witness. With any luck those who witnessed this will come forward and debunk her accusations and that will serve you in the future. Nothing is better than a LIAR being outed as a LIAR and a POOR EXCUSE for a leader. Good luck

Response by MSG Gary Eckert made Sep 22 at 2020 8:44 PM

MSG Gary Eckert — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 20:44:50 -0400

My recommendation is you ask to speak to the Sergeant privately first thing tomorrow and apologize for your deportment. Whether you committed an EO violation when you questioned whether she was having a bad day (I can see where that comment could be considered sexist), you certainly crossed the line when it comes to disrespect and if she pushes the issue, you will lose. I’m not sure about your EO training but I know in ours we are told if a conversation makes you uncomfortable whether you are a party to that conversation or not you have a moral obligation to correct the offending purpose. That makes her action in interrupting the conversation correct and as your leader she should ensure you understand that you should have made the correction first. As for sworn statements don’t waste your time, as long as she considered the conversation improper, it was.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2020 9:20 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 21:20:20 -0400

Sworn statements

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2020 11:20 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Sep 2020 23:20:33 -0400

What EXACTLY was the vulgar language?

I’m not giving her a pass on losing her sh*t in front of everyone but...every situation has background details.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2020 8:12 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2020 08:12:12 -0400

I would take care using the term "targeted". you appear to be "singled out" or "unnecessarily punished" but targeting implies a whole new level that could be better explained by overzealous and/or inexperienced leadership. BTW, yes get statements.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Sep 23 at 2020 11:30 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Wed, 23 Sep 2020 11:30:20 -0400

Move forward with getting statements on what happened and how it happened. That will add clarity to the situation and sort out what actually happened.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Sep 23 at 2020 12:56 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Wed, 23 Sep 2020 12:56:58 -0400

I think you got caught in or around an inappropriate conversation by an overzealous NCO. Instead of cutting your losses and shutting your mouth, you chose to escalate the situation by asking a smart ass question. And you did it in front of everyone else. As a result you were counseled. Not punished. Not corrective training. Counseled. How is that being targeted? Soldier the fuck up and move on.
I am dismayed at how many senior NCOs and Officers jumped on the bandwagon and assumed you are a victim here. They are the reason junior NCOs have no clout anymore because anytime a SM whines about being bullied or targeted you jump right in with both feet and want to send them to see the IG.
I hope next week none of your troops are on here complaining that you targeted them. They might get advised to target your ass.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2020 2:35 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2020 14:35:44 -0400

For those that say that "asking if someone is having a bad day", how would you approach someone that might be a risk of suicide? Because if that is considered sexist, then you won't be able to see if someone is going through an issue that might raise flags into a possible suicide.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2020 8:56 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2020 20:56:22 -0400

Nowadays EO is some serious stuff. Get the statements. Put a packet together and go directly to the 1SG. If you go directly to the commander using the open door policy you may be stepping on a land mine. But if you go to the commander using open door policy make sure to invite the 1SG and give him a heads up so he isn’t caught off guard.
Predators come in all shapes and sizes. You need to protect yourself. Good luck.