Any clue what this flag/decoration is?

2023-07-15T12:08:46-04:00

Wondering if anyone knows what this flag represents? This was found among a friend of mine’s dad’s things. His dad served in our beloved Corps in the late 40s and early 50s. Served at Camp LeJune. Thanks for any help. Get some, Semper Fi.

Response by Maj Kim Patterson made Jul 15 at 2023 12:43 PM

2023-07-15T12:43:54-04:00

You need to repost this with the tags Marine and Camp Lejune or this post will just disappear.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 15 at 2023 12:44 PM

2023-07-15T12:44:31-04:00

Not sure what the '83 represents. Perhaps the year? But, the other part being the 12 over the US with the white over red signifies this possibly to be the 12th US Cavalry. But, normally it's Red over White.

Response by COL Randall C. made Jul 15 at 2023 1:55 PM

2023-07-15T13:55:28-04:00

Just taking a SWAG here, but the front part is the shape of an Army, Navy or Air Force guidon. USMC guidon flags are rectangular. Like MSG Private RallyPoint Member said, I too assume the '83 is for a year (1883? 1983?)

I discounted Navy and Air Force guidons as they are a uniform color (the Air Force does have some white/blue ones).

The color scheme is not the one for cavalry units (which is red over white, not the other way around) and white over red is associated with 1st Army. However, the Army's heraldic regulation* doesn't show any 'white over red' color scheme for the service.

I have seen bad knock-offs on eBay* that showed a reversed color scheme for the red and white fields.

Between 1836 and 1841, cavalry unit guidons usually showed the regiment on the bottom in red lettering on a white field and a U.S. in white lettering on a red field.

It almost seems that someone made the guidon from a description and flipped it for the 12th cavalry. Only one problem - the 12th cavalry wasn't stood up until 1901 and by that time the guidance had dropped the U.S. on the guidon (it was only done between 1836 and 1841).
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* AR 840-10 - https://history.army.mil/html/forcestruc/docs/AR840-10.pdf
* 7th Cav Guidon (later 1830s) - https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0109/5535/8271/files/1836guidon.jpg?v= [login to see]
* eBay bad reproduction - https://www.ebay.com/itm/b0833v-US-Army-4th-Cavalry-Guide-on-1870s-thru-today-/ [login to see] 38

AR840-10.pdf

Response by 1SG Russell S. made Jul 15 at 2023 2:51 PM

2023-07-15T14:51:56-04:00

Looks like 12th Cav with service in 1983. 12th Cav is a Ft Hood and part of the 1 Cav Div.

Response by MSgt Steve Sweeney made Jul 16 at 2023 11:03 AM

2023-07-16T11:03:00-04:00

Best guess is a unit guidon from the 12th Cavalry Regiment based out of Fort Hood, Texas. Not sure what the '83 represents. Coloration matches the Texas flag - pretty sure there is a tie to Texas. Maybe an unofficial unit guidon made up for the tie clasp? While searching, also saw reference to a 12th Bomber group of the 83rd Bomber squadron... less confident about that one.

Thanks for that trip down the Google hole!

Response by COL Dan Ruder made Jul 16 at 2023 10:59 PM

2023-07-16T22:59:53-04:00

It's most likely a tie clip. Ask your friend if his Dad was a Scout Master in 1983, Troop 12. Maybe worn with a suit and tie when not in his Scout Master uniform.

Response by SSG Byron Hewett made Jul 17 at 2023 4:43 PM

2023-07-17T16:43:23-04:00

Try The Institute of Heraldry Website that would a great place to start
https://tioh.army.mil/

The Institute of Heraldry | Home

The purpose of this site is to provide information on United States Army heraldic entitlements; how they are displayed, and how and why it is worn.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 17 at 2023 5:22 PM

2023-07-17T17:22:49-04:00

I am attempting to attach a document from the Marine Corp University. The 12 Marine Division has a storied history. Since your father was in the Corp this might be a good place to start. The only current 12th is an Arrillery Regiment in Okinawa I believe.

https://www.usmcu.edu/Portals/218/Brief%20History%20of%20the%2012th%20Marines.pdf

404 - File or directory not found.

Response by CPO Jack De Merit made Jul 22 at 2023 4:02 PM

2023-07-22T16:02:31-04:00

I believe it is the 12th Marine Detachment from 1983 but not positive. Contact Medals of America. they have nearly every Medal that was ever issued and they can tell you what it is. Go to MedalsofAmerica.com on the computer and it should come up.

Response by LCpl Robert Michaud made Jul 26 at 2023 6:36 PM

2023-07-26T18:36:25-04:00

Just a thought but maybe take it to a military museum and let them look at it. Everyone thinks the '83 means 1983. The rest is unclear since the colors are wrong, but the museum should shed light on it. Maybe it was taken as a drought from some training exercise. Semper Fi brother!

Response by MSgt Mike O'Meara made Jul 28 at 2023 12:13 PM

2023-07-28T12:13:54-04:00

Enameled memento luggage tags were a thing in the 80's, I remember getting a lot at industry conventions. That looks like a luggage tag and I'd guess it's swag from a 1983 12th CAV reunion of some sorts. Guessing they got the red/white backwards on the order.

Response by MSgt Mike O'Meara made Jul 28 at 2023 12:19 PM

2023-07-28T12:19:03-04:00

Looks like a 1980's era enameled memento luggage tag. That was a thing then, I remember my dad having a handful of them from various meetings and conventions. I'm guessing that was a keepsake from a 1983 12th CAV reunion of some sorts, but they got the red/white reversed on the order. Hard to tell from the photo, but that strap sure looks like pleather so I'd think 1983 for sure. If the back of that has painted area with lines for writing your name and address, that's for sure what it is.

Response by SFC John Mikelson made Jul 31 at 2023 12:11 PM

2023-07-31T12:11:15-04:00

12th US Cavalry
The 83 is year served

On 15 June 1983, the 1st Battalion, 12th Cavalry Regiment was relieved from assignment to the 1st Cavalry Division at Fort Hood, Texas. Reorganized in 92

Response by CPL Mike Kiernan made Aug 14 at 2023 8:25 AM

2023-08-14T08:25:03-04:00

Guideon is clearly a Cavalry Troop Guide-On, from 1983 belonging to the U.S. 12th Cavalry. Anything more would have to come out of Army Heraldry in DC. I know for a fact that the Army, in The Pentagon's Library, has EVERY SHOULDER PATCH, MISSION PATCH, BRANCH PATCH AND UNIT PATCH on file there. An Inquiry to the Army's Public Information Office might be a good place to start given that They and the Library are about 4 Ring's from each other, and on the same floor.

Response by SFC Douglas Entwistle made Aug 15 at 2023 7:54 PM

2023-08-15T19:54:43-04:00

The shape, the colors white and red above (similar to yours,) with the red and white horizontally bisecting and the guideon, are traditional US Army cavalry regiment. Some had black vertical bands near the standard for different reasons. Like today, it wasn't unheard of for servicemen to have been in both services. I suspect this may be something like a specific unit clasp. Such things didn't always use official symbology. The inversion of the US Army Cav colors may have meaning.

Response by LTC Greg T made Aug 16 at 2023 10:39 AM

2023-08-16T10:39:57-04:00

Possible tribute to the U.S. Embassy Beirut bombing in April 1983, or the October 1983 bombing of the Marine Barracks at the Beirut Airport.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Aug 17 at 2023 8:16 AM

2023-08-17T08:16:57-04:00

It looks like tie tack memorabilia. The "Flag" is a representation of a 12th Cavalry Regiment guidon.

The black field with the number '83 is not a standard feature of a Cav guidon. I suspect that this is a reference to the year 1983. The person who had this memorabilia was either an Alumni of the 12th Cav in 1983; attended a 12th CAV function in 1983; or if the owner earned their spurs in a 1983 spur ride.

If I had to bet a steak dinner, I'd guess this is associated with a spur ride. How a Marine who served in the late 1940s and early 1950s had appears a mystery. I would guess it was provided as a gift or reward (similar to a challenge coin).

Response by CPO Jack De Merit made Aug 18 at 2023 2:12 PM

2023-08-18T14:12:43-04:00

I went to the Medals of America website and there was nothing like it there. My guess is the 83 is the year it was presented. I think the 12 represents a Squadron, Unit, Battalion or Command of the United States.

Response by SMSgt Michael Gleason made Aug 19 at 2023 8:21 PM

2023-08-19T20:21:05-04:00

It looks to me like a Civil-War-Era-inspired regimental guidon, mounted on a tie clasp, and I'm guessing that it's probably from a unit in the Class of 1983 at West Point.

Response by SGT Christopher Sigafoos made Aug 21 at 2023 1:50 AM

2023-08-21T01:50:26-04:00

From my research, which is admittedly limited since I'm in Washington State, that appears to be an Army Cavalry tie clip from the 12th Cavalry Regiment out of Fort Hood. The unit was established in 1901 so that clip would be from 1983.

Response by SFC Kevin Childers made Aug 21 at 2023 5:25 PM

2023-08-21T17:25:53-04:00

Looks like an Army Cav pendant, and there in may be the issue. Some units had their own unique signature items (some Army Cav units went so far as boots, stetson's, neckerchiefs and such). Have you tried Google Lens?

Could it be that dad swapped insignia with some army guy as a souvenir ?

Response by CMSAF Carol Cox made Sep 28 at 2023 9:24 AM

2023-09-28T09:24:56-04:00

Reminds me of a burgee used by sailing clubs.

Response by CMSAF Carol Cox made Sep 28 at 2023 9:27 AM

2023-09-28T09:27:07-04:00

Here is a Coast Guard burgee. https://images.app.goo.gl/thx2NbCVh7T8F8A76

thx2NbCVh7T8F8A76

Response by SPC Martin Mahan made Sep 29 at 2023 3:27 PM

2023-09-29T15:27:41-04:00

I know I'm coming in late, and didn't scroll through all the comments, but this is an Americas' Cup Lapel Pin. Not a military decoration at all, for all that it looks like one. It can be Google searched as "Americas' Cup lapel Pin with '83"

Response by SGT Bill Braniff made Oct 3 at 2023 9:46 AM

2023-10-03T09:46:07-04:00

Looking at the pin, I doubt it was 1883. I would say a guidon flag? But I really don't know much about them.

Response by LTC Marc King made Nov 5 at 2023 6:18 PM

2023-11-05T18:18:23-05:00

Americas cup lapel pin