Are Soldiers paid enough to Live?

CW2 Joseph Evans — Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:43:58 -0500

We've all seen it. That junior Soldier that just can't manage. The one with the wife and two kids trying to survive off post while waiting for housing to come through. The car that is barely road worthy and is probably costing more to maintain than it is worth.

http://livingwage.mit.edu/states/37

MIT places a poverty wage for a family of 4 (2 adults and 2 children) in NC at $10.60 per adult. A Living wage there is considered to be $18.92. BA +BAH for a SPC under 4 years of service just barely clears the $18 an hour mark if you divide the annual salary by 2080 (which we all know is no where near the number of hours we put in). If the spouse works, it is probably a minimum wage job or just above, barely clearing $8 an hour. Then there is the expectation of the Family Readiness Groups and other unit functions that take away from the spouse's opportunity to work.

Don't get me wrong, in today's labor market, $19 an hour* is an incredible wage for an entry level position with less than 4 years experience, but is it a livable wage? What can we do to help these Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines that can't quite get caught up while trying to raise a family?

Is the solution tied to a Federal Minimum wage increase? Do we need to consider revamping the pay charts? or do we need to take a page from the Walmart Management manual and teach them all how to apply for food stamps and welfare to make ends meet?

Living Wage Calculator-Living Wage Calculation for North Carolina

The living wage shown is the hourly rate that an individual must earn to
support their family, if they are the sole provider and are working
full-time (2080 hours per year). The state minimum wage is...

Response by SFC James Baber made Dec 12 at 2013 10:43 PM

SFC James Baber — Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:43:11 -0500

Not just no, but hell no, when you have most junior enlisted Soldiers from E5 and below eligible for food stamps and other government assistance programs that should be a prime indicator right there.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2014 6:33 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 06:33:50 -0400

If you consider the cost of the free benefits we enjoy, to include the generous leave and paid holiday perks, our actual wages are a bit higher than we'd like to say they are. In addition, many of us enjoy special tax breaks and loan incentives through federal legislation such as the Soldiers' and Sailors' Civil Relief act.

That being said, it wouldn't be hard for a junior enlisted Soldier with a family to have difficulty making ends meet. While a PFC may initially make less money, promotions, time in grade, time in service raises etc will improve their wages like the rest of us.

The bottom line is that if you don't effectively manage your money and consider present and future expenses, no wage is going to be livable. One thing we should do is enable our first line NCOs at a minimum to advise such Soldier's on optimum ways to handle their finances.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2014 8:50 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 08:50:21 -0400

The problem is that too many soldiers are living outside of their means. If done right, basic pay/bas/bah should be plenty to cover all the basic needs.

Response by CPL Stephen Kirt made Apr 5 at 2014 12:48 PM

CPL Stephen Kirt — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 12:48:00 -0400

I keep seeing leave and being paid on holidays as "extra perks". How is that an extra perk? Did I miss something? Do we get paid extra for holidays or for being on leave? Cause I missed that memo. Granted, my last civilian job I only got 14 days of paid vacation a year, but still. I wouldn't count tax free deployment pay as a major incentive either, because I know many soldiers who have been in for years and haven't deployed. In fact, I have been in just over 4 years now and being here in Kuwait is my first "deployment". So that is 4 years without that tax free pay compared to the 1 year I am going to get while I'm here. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that living within your means is easily achievable when you're lower enlisted. I'm just disputing some of the points given as to why. I see both sides of this argument, and I'm straddling the fence on it myself.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2014 4:05 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 16:05:04 -0400

<p>I think the biggest monetary issues for the new military members is that they are making more money than they've ever had in the lives so far and have never been taught fiscal responsibility (it isn't something that's been taught too well - look at our members of our civilian government - they are even worse at it).  Since the high schools aren't handling that teaching responsibility - then maybe the military needs to step up and teach our new members and include their spouses in it if they have one.  This way they will have the proper tools to budget their finances responsibly and be more likely to stay out of financial crisis.</p><p>If people can learn to control their spending and decide what they 'really need' compared to what they 'want' - then they will be taking a big step towards their fiscally stable standard of living. </p><p>As for the military life in general - we do get a lot of benefits that the civilian side doesn't have, but of course it all depends on what's relevant to the individual.  </p><p><br></p>

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2014 5:25 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 17:25:25 -0400

If you come into the military with absolutely zero previous debt then you should be good. That is seldom the case though.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made Apr 5 at 2014 5:46 PM

MSgt Keith Hebert — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 17:46:01 -0400

Yes they are paid enough it takes discipline and living with in your means and that is where nco's should come into play and mentor these young people and lead by example. Also make Dave Ramsey a mandatory course

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Apr 5 at 2014 7:04 PM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 19:04:53 -0400

Yes. Remember, people are paid for the work they do/value they bring. NOT for the lifestyle choices they chose.  The trick is to ensure that your lifestyle and your income have some (positive!) relationship to each other. <div><br></div><div>Comparing military pay to civilian pay (including benefits packages for both!), military stacks up quite well to civilian, especially on the lower end. HS Grad, no prior experience? Military is hands down better than what you will find on the civilian side. It changes a bit when your compare level of responsibility in given job - but you wouldn't get that early responsibility in the civilian side, so it's really a red herring. </div><div><br></div><div>Buying that bitchin' Camaro on credit, getting married, having multiple kids on a PFC's pay is a headspace & timing error. </div><div><br></div><div>My civilian employer finds that they value me at $X/year, including benefits. If I get married (I am), it is STILL $X. If I have a kid, it is still $X. If I have 8 kids with 5 different partners, it's still $X. Nobody thinks the employer should pay me more because I did stupid things. </div>

Response by SGT Aaron Barbee made Apr 18 at 2014 11:45 PM

SGT Aaron Barbee — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 23:45:36 -0400

Like most of the other responders' opinions I also think it takes personal discipline to live within your personal financial means. Soldiers today (generally) do well with what they get paid. If they have a family, the vast majority of them do alright. The ones that are struggling usually don't have a budget, have never attended a finance class (every installation does these monthly), and don't bring up the issues until it's hard to fix.

One of the issues I saw during the last couple of years of my service, and still see looking around from the outside looking in, is E5's and E6's setting a poor example and living beyond their means. At one point I had asked someone why they did that, and the response was "I've got a deployment coming up, it'll get paid off." This is a poor attitude that we as NCOs need to fix within our corps and set an example for the younger/lower ranked soldiers.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2014 1:33 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 May 2014 13:33:50 -0400

It seems that most of the discussion stems from our benefits vs what we earn as base pay. The base pay we receive seems meager when compared to our civilian counterparts, especially in the more technical fields. Even though our benefits can be somewhat lengthy and sometimes difficult, our free medical and dental benefits are quite expensive in the civilian sector considering what we receive. Dental insurance alone can be quite costly and provides very little. The fact that we earn stable pay and employment, albeit with long and uncertain hours, upon completion of our training at 18 years of age is outstanding considering some of the other options available.

It boils down to making smart decisions with the pay received AND striving to become better educated and qualified to either attain higher positions of authority or become more marketable for other employers at the end of enlistment. No one will amass millions just by serving in the Army. At the same time, no soldier or family member will go hungry on the pay provided unless they make poor life choices. That means not only controlling the urge to buy that brand new 2014 GXS-R, but also making sound decisions about starting or expanding a family.

From my personal experience: my wife and I have gone from living paycheck to paycheck, eating ramen noodles, and paying off bills (mostly from poor life choices) to living very comfortably with 2 dogs, one brand new car, and a fairly solid start in investing and saving. All this on E-4 pay, about $10 an hour, and making the conscious decision to live within our means.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made May 16 at 2014 3:46 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Fri, 16 May 2014 15:46:25 -0400

12 years ago there were more than half of the married soldiers in my unit who were on food stamps. I cannot speak to the situation today, but unless things have changed drastically I would still have to say no.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made May 16 at 2014 4:20 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Fri, 16 May 2014 16:20:08 -0400

In response to the OP, it depends....depends on the individual Soldier and that Soldier's fiscal responsibility or lack thereof. Single Soldiers, normally can do well for themselves if they are disciplined and don't spend frivolously. Pretty much same for married Soldiers, if that family lives within it's means, yes what Soldiers are paid is livable. I was a young SGT w/a wife and 2 sons in 1990 and we did well because we didn't try to live beyond what we could afford and my family did not want for anything, same a few years later as a SSG w/a wife and 3 sons. It is all dependent upon the individual Soldier/family, if they choose to live within their means they can and will survive comfortably; if not well then that is where problems arise.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made May 16 at 2014 4:26 PM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Fri, 16 May 2014 16:26:03 -0400

I sa this mentioned on a couple of posts here and thought I would just make my own comment vice responding to each.

There are many service members that recieve food stamps however in California (and most states) they use only base pay and BAS when looking at income for foodstamps. lats time I checked there was a whole other part of compensation that is designed to fully pay for your housing called BAH. If BAH were calcualted into earnings then only the most junior troops with many dependants would be eligible for foodstamps.

I feel that as a whole we make very good money and if you plan correctly (budget) and not have 3 kids before you are 21 years old you have should be able to support yourself. Also when I look in the parking lot all the beater cars belong to the senior guys while all the brand new ones belong to the Junior Enlisted.

You don't need an Escalade, BMW, Lexus. You don't need to live in the most expensive part of town. You don't need to eat steak every night.

Buy a car that gets you from point A to B that is reliable. Live in moderate housing. Learn how to cook meals at home.

Response by SGT James Elphick made May 16 at 2014 4:56 PM

SGT James Elphick — Fri, 16 May 2014 16:56:52 -0400

The military should probably institute mandatory financial education for young, married soldiers to ensure they do not end up in a desperate situation. I PVT in the barracks can blow every last cent he has and still be fine because he gets "3 hots and a cot" from the military anyway but the situation is different for young, married soldiers.

Response by CPT Marc Serrá made May 16 at 2014 8:46 PM

CPT Marc Serrá — Fri, 16 May 2014 20:46:31 -0400

I can't speak to today's wages, but when I entered active duty in '96 as a PFC with a wife, a new child and court appointed guardianship of my niece, and a little bit of savings...I did fine.

Until I arrived at Ft Campbell, where housing was limited and therefore they wouldn't authorize me on-post housing (guardians not authorized a separate room IAW Regs) and we weren't allowed to put 6yo girl with a <6yo boy...in other words I was forced into the rental market off post. I had a choice at this point...felony flats (there were five police cars on site when we arrived to view the available apartments (just missed the shooting by 20 min)......or rent above my BAH. I chose the second option and over the next year, reduced my savings by $100 bucks a month paying for necessities. No new car, no cable, no extra phone/internet, no drinking, very limited eating out.

My car was fine until I was hit by a drunk Soldier on my way to Guard-mount at 2am on a Saturday morning..totaled the car. Once a month I took my family out to Cici's $3/head all you can eat for a feed...no other eating out.

I honestly don't know what I would've done if I hadn't have received a green to gold scholarship and left for college when I did. I was down to $200 in savings.

Oh, and this whole time, I made $11 too much to qualify for food stamps or other assistance.

I think most of the time, junior enlisted are paid enough, but there are enough circumstances/examples out there where they are not.....enough to warrant continued discussion on the matter.

Response by SSG Daniel Deiler made May 16 at 2014 9:23 PM

SSG Daniel Deiler — Fri, 16 May 2014 21:23:40 -0400

It has been said a few times on here already and it comes down to fiscal responsibility. With the advent of, wide acceptance of and lack of education on how to properly utilize credit cards, it has caused a serious problem in our country. It's been brought on by ease of approval for credit and by narcissitic/keeping up with the Jones type of behavior that has been becoming more and more rampant over the past decade or more.

When I lived in the barracks from 1994-2000, I remember barely ANYONE owned a car. And if they did, it was more than likely an old beater or one that their parents gave to them. Very rarely did you see a single Soldier go out on the economy and purchase a vehicle. And if they did, they usually would go out with their first line leader to make sure they weren't being screwed over by the car salesman and that their monthly payment was in the Soldiers wheelhouse as being something they could afford, along with insurance and fuel.

Then came the deployments. Now everyone had liquid assets they could sprinkle around everywhere. They could save up their little 25K and purchase that bright, shiny new sports car...they could live off post without getting BAH...they could go out to eat at Buffalo Wild Wings for supper all the time...they got used to a specific lifestyle without considering what the consequences would be when the well ran dry, which it eventually did...and then another deployment would save them. And they'd come home and do it all over again but swearing they would be more careful. And they weren't.

I understand that's stereotyping but by and large it is the reality. The military/government has NO obligation to provide us with the necessary compensation due to a failure to plan ahead and live within the means of our salary. It has no obligation to provide benefits to our family members. They do because they understand that it plays a large part in the performance of the Soldier. Look at BAS. That is provided TO the Soldier for THAT Soldier. Not his spouse and children. That's why it comes out of your pay when you go to the field. BAH should be the same way. If a Soldier cannot adjust their choice of living habits, then why is the government under any obligation to fix it? A Soldiers pay and benefits are supposed to be utilized for THE SOLDIER. If you were in the civilian sector you think for one nanosecond that the CEO/CFO would give two craps that your choices led you into a life that you can't pay for?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2014 12:59 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 17 May 2014 00:59:18 -0400

To answer the question, I believe Soldiers are paid enough to live. I do not think that we are overcompensated either. I also have not received a single "free" benefit in my military career. I have yet to see a valid message come out saying that my pay and benefits are going to decrease.

I do have one question though:

Why is it acceptable to compare what it is that we do, or have the potential to do, in the military with something that will never be able to match?

Response by SFC Benjamin Parsons made Sep 11 at 2014 12:39 PM

SFC Benjamin Parsons — Thu, 11 Sep 2014 12:39:12 -0400

A few years back USMC was publicly vilified for dissuading married applicants.
Common sense again fell victim to political correctness.
The enlisted military is an entry level job where ex-high school kids mature and learn about life - often the hard way in varying degrees. But learn they do and whole bunches of those not already 'born to it' turn into patriotic team players.
To this day I resent that a married E-4 can live in a nice apartment on base and possibly take home more money than his single counterpart.
It's not right.
I made no small effort to counsel kids under me (especially the ones with family) on managing their finances. They rarely took it. And cost me and others many valuable hours scrounging around for monthly emergency food money at AER (rarely helpful) and other agencies. Too often ended up tossing a few bucks into the pot my-own-self.
I don't know the answer here. But it needs fixed. And I do know that fixed percentage increases in pay sends most of the money to the top.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 12:24 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:24:35 -0500

I'm sorry to say, but it may be just what you said in the very last sentence. I don't think a SPC with 2 kids and a wife make enough money. Your first 9 weeks in the army you don't get paid until almost AFTER the whole Basic is done. If you have a wife/kids/home/apt or all the above, you're hosed. No one told me this and I doubt young privates or people coming INTO the army/military are even TOLD this.....THIS is A BIG PROBLEM. I believe there needs to be SOME kind of accountability somewhere.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 12 at 2018 6:42 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 12 Jul 2018 18:42:19 -0400

E-1 Salary $1638, Separate Rations $369, BAH W Deps $1038= $3045. Those families who earn less than the USDA rate for poverty should go to Finance to get more money.