Are square-toed Oxford shoes technically authorized?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 15:08:01 -0500

Saw a lot of debate on US Army WTF Moments over this photo, but as usual, healthy debate was ruined by memes. Obviously, his pants are ill-fitting, but the square-toes is what I'm curious about.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 3:13 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 15:13:49 -0500

Good question as DA Pam 670-1 does not designate rounded, pointed, or squared.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 3:15 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 15:15:34 -0500

The regulation is vague but it does state that the only authorized oxford shoes are the clothing bag issue ones and that is the only approved specification and pattern.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 3:26 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 15:26:18 -0500

The DA PAM simply states "c. Shoes, oxford, black, male.
(1) Type. The shoes are clothing bag issue items.
(2) Description.
(a) The shoes are made from an approved specification or pattern, or from a similar commercial design and are
made of leather, poromeric, or patent leather. The shoe is dress tie-oxford style, with at least three eyelets, and a closed
toe and heel. The shoe is plain, with no design in the shoe material.
(b) As an option, commanders may authorize males to wear an ankle-high boot, similar to a jodhpurs (riding) or
riding boot. If worn, the boot must be black, plain, without straps or buckles, with a noncontrasting heel and sole, and a
heel no higher than 2 inches. An inconspicuously placed zipper is authorized.
(3) How worn. The oxford shoes are authorized for wear with service, dress, mess, evening mess, hospital duty, and
food service uniforms."

From what I saw there was no specific mention of rounded or squared.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 3:56 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 15:56:37 -0500

As a 1SG I would not allow it as it violates the concept of uniformity. I'm fairly sure my CSM would back me up on that, we aren't about special snowflakes in the military.

Response by MSG David Rogers III made Feb 14 at 2017 3:59 PM

MSG David Rogers III — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 15:59:21 -0500

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_shoe

The answer is in the definition of "Oxford Shoe". Although not stated, Oxfords have a toe cap. The shoe above does not. This is some deep research!

Oxford shoe - Wikipedia

An Oxford shoe is characterized by shoelace eyelets tabs that are attached under the vamp,[1] a feature termed "closed lacing".[2] This contrasts with Derbys, or Blüchers, which have shoelace eyelets attached to the top of the vamp. Originally, Oxfords were plain, formal shoes, made of leather but they evolved into a range of styles suitable for both formal, uniform, and casual wear. Based on function and the dictates of fashion, Oxfords are...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2017 4:38 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:38:14 -0500

since I've been in navy, marines and army its been the oxfords, rounded toe, nothing in the regs suggest anything else

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Feb 14 at 2017 4:40 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 16:40:22 -0500

From what I read in DA Pam 670-1 and AR670-1 the ones in the picture are not authorized because they have stitching across and along the top and the reg says they must be plain with no design in the leather. Also all the uniform depictions in the reg show a round toed shoe which by inference would lead me to interpret the intent of the reg to be plain round toed oxfords.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Feb 14 at 2017 6:18 PM

SSG Mark Franzen — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 18:18:37 -0500

Did you look in DA pam 670-1 or AR670-1?
SSG MARK FRANZEN
USA VET

Response by SFC George Smith made Feb 14 at 2017 11:25 PM

SFC George Smith — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 23:25:18 -0500

most interesting... Did not Know they even had them...

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Feb 15 at 2017 3:20 AM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 03:20:54 -0500

IAW (Air Force) AFI 36-2903, Low quarter Oxford style shoes must be lace up an with a plain rounded cap toe. The Army Regulation, AR 670-1 states that the shoes are a bag issue item, which is round toe. The Army Regulation however doesn't specifically refer to a requirement in writing for a round toe. It would seem however, in My opinion, if the issue item is round toe them a substitute should not venture from that design for any reason. We don't get to pick and choose what We wear for or with our uniforms including footwear or waiver from the issued style in any way and remain properly uniformed in My view.

Response by MSG David Rogers III made Feb 15 at 2017 1:49 PM

MSG David Rogers III — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 13:49:32 -0500

https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/oxford-shoes-guide/
Another link about Oxford Shoes. This is an interesting discussion, but I never really wanted to learn this much about shoes!

Oxford Shoes Guide - How To Wear Oxfords, How To Buy & What To Avoid — Gentleman's Gazette

Learn all about Oxford Shoes, including the Definition, the History, Style suggestions, How to Combine it & How to Buy Guide.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2017 10:39 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Feb 2017 10:39:48 -0500

This is what the "New Army" is coming to-- questioning EVERY regulation in order to get around it, so the special snowflake can do whatever s/he wants. One of the many reasons I am getting out...