Are we being too soft on Soldiers?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Oct 2013 14:30:31 -0400

A common complaint that comes up during discussions among NCOs is that the Army is doing itself a disservice by essentially outlawing the good, oldfashioned "smoke session". Obviously the situation varies by unit, but by and large this seems to be a common topic across duty stations. What once would have been seen as an NCO keeping good order and discipline could now land you in a heap of trouble.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2013 5:53 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Oct 2013 17:53:07 -0400

SSG,
All I can really say about it is this: When I was a private, when I got smoked, or had to do "corrective training" it was painful and I never did it again. You are either going to wise up, or you'll end up really strong" my NCO told me. Today, I am very fit and a much wiser Soldier. I think the method speaks for itself

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2013 6:27 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Oct 2013 18:27:53 -0400

SSG,I do agree that the options to correct a Soldier are limited this days. However, what once you could do with a "smoke session" must now be done with a paper trail that aims to disciple the Soilder by taking away their money which for some could be more painfull that a "smoke session.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2013 7:34 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Oct 2013 19:34:00 -0400

I think there is a way to use smoking as an effective tool for correction and training, but I think that in the past it got way out of hand, and unfortunately that led to the Army having to respond and make changes. If smoking had been used responsibly the whole time, I don't know if that would have happened. I personally have a very laid-back personality and I don't enjoy smoking soldiers, but I think the way to use it effectively is as a quick, immediate reminder to nudge an otherwise good soldier back to the correct behavior. But ongoing patterns of behavior or conscious decisions to do the wrong thing need to be addressed by actually evaluating that behavior and setting up a plan to change it. Smoking just can't fix these things by itself, and responding to escalating misbehavior by just escalating the amount of smoking is poor leadership.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2013 9:02 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Oct 2013 21:02:28 -0400

While I think a Soldier should be able to endure a good physical corrective training session (it does, afterall, improve physical fitness) punishment needs to fit the crime. It is therefore, the responsibility of the correcting NCO to relate the correction to the infraction. For example, making a Soldier who maxes his APFT do push-ups really doesn't affect him/her, does it? Also, the object of correction is not to inflict pain, but to make the Soldier connect the corrective action to the infraction.One remedy that is usually successful is taking a Soldier's personal time. Having a Soldier assist the Extra Duty crew takes his/her time and shows what further infraction will result in.If you are not connecting the punishment to the infraction, you are not making an impact and are failing as a leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2013 9:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Oct 2013 21:10:56 -0400

Vital to know your Soldiers...each one is different and responds differently to different tactics. Approach each Soldier individually, learn which ones need an aggressive NCO and which ones that almost self correct and get more out of simple positive reinforcement.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2013 11:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Oct 2013 23:06:22 -0400

the old adage of "there are 2 types of Soldiers... smart ones and strong ones" actually means something. It works. Yes, like anything else, you have idiots that will abuse it (they're the same ones that push article 15s for everything, instead of trying to correct the problem with corrective training and counseling today). Paperwork works for some, push-ups and low-crawls for others. Know your Soldiers, know what motivates them, but don't ever land yourself in the situation where you are singling out one guy to pick on. Be fair and impartial in everything you do. But yes... SMOKE THE HELL OUT OF THEM! should be allowed, as long as it doesn't reach the point of abuse and hazing

Response by CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2013 11:20 PM

CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Oct 2013 23:20:22 -0400

I do agree to a point. The paper trail is the new smoke session, as stated by CPT Montanez. I am not going to say that I have seen a soldier getting a chewing while in the front leaning rest, but that could be the "farthest" a smoke session could probably go without someone making a complaint. I have also heard the rumor of "stress cards" in BCT and AIT. We are dealing with a new generation of technology driven teenagers that are as not tough, as we were say 10 or 15 years ago when technology was not as prevalent, and the Army has recognized that and has adapted.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2013 10:48 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Oct 2013 22:48:33 -0400

Great feedback, gents. It is a fact that good counseling, leading by example, and knowing your Soldiers solves a boat load of Soldier related problems. I completely agree that you can't use the same approach with every Soldier. I also agree that in the "good old days" things could go a little too far. By too far I mean IVs, vomiting, bleeding, etc. However, I asked this question because at my current unit it's been explained to me that anything more than 5 repetitions was strictly verboten. I wonder if this might be taking it a little too far in the other direction. This struck me as something worth turning into a topic and seeing what the gang had to say.

Response by SGT Kyle Taylor made Oct 27 at 2013 11:52 AM

SGT Kyle Taylor — Sun, 27 Oct 2013 11:52:03 -0400

As with everything else their is a good way and a bad way. Some people have taken it way out of hand and that is what has ruined it for everyone. Corrective action is just that not a reason for abuse of power and abuse of a Soldier. I am Combat Arms and I have been smoked and I have seen abuse of power.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2013 2:48 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Oct 2013 02:48:08 -0400

I would say that we are not “being soft” on Soldiers. I
believe that the environment that we are trying to instill is to give Soldiers,
regardless of rank or any discriminatory aspects, the utmost respect and trust.
Of course this may be taken advantage of but as Leaders, we need to hold them
accountable for their actions. This is how we mold and Soldiers into future leaders.
Just because we do not “smoke” does not mean we cannot find another
disciplinary method to correct the deficiency.
We just have to be crafty and give them something to think about.
Smoking them will just give them a motive to not do it again but if we educate
them, give them a reason to correct it, and not correct it in the form of hazing
we can get more from the Soldiers.

Response by CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. made Oct 29 at 2013 1:55 PM

CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 13:55:37 -0400

Yes, we are being to soft on Soldiers. It's not because of institutional limits, its a lack of creativity on the part of senior NCOs and company grade officers. Everyone has an affinity for the romanticized "smoke sessions." When Soldiers were barely educated, minor trauma was a good learning tool. Soldiers are better educated (for what it's worth). Corrective training must adapt to that. My favorite corrective training is to make people hand copy regulations. They get time limits, and very strict rules about mistakes and errors. You might make enemies, but you will make knowledgeable enemies.

Response by CPT Chris Loomis made Oct 29 at 2013 2:49 PM

CPT Chris Loomis — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 14:49:10 -0400

I completely agree with SSG Davis! "There are 2 types of Soldiers... smart ones and strong ones." NCO's are the backbone of the Army. They get the job done! As such if they have been tasked with training Soldiers they should have the discretion to dole out "IPT" (Incentive Physical Training).

Furthermore, I have never been downrange, but I understand and accept that it is often a matter of life and death.

By not allowing the "good old smoke session" are we as an Army preparing Soldiers for the potential harsh realities that they may one day face?

If attempts have been made to make a Soldier "smart" through training and education and those attempts have failed then by all means they should be made "strong" Soldiers. Maybe that is the jolt they need to get "smart."

And in making that Soldier "strong" we are probably saving many Soldiers lives!

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Oct 29 at 2013 2:58 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 14:58:00 -0400

I still make my young soldiers do a few push-ups here and there when they make mistakes but I do this away from judgeful eyes.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 3:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 15:52:53 -0400

Just like anything, i believe that the Army and just society in general are taking things too far. I personally am not going to change the way I am. But I approach people differently depending on the situation. I am a firm believer that if you have a mutual unspoken agreement with the Soldier in which he/she understands the severity of the mess up, then it's all good, as long as you dont kill the individual. Now, if you are trying to 'smoke' everyone for every little thing and not wanna hear what they have to say, you just lost that tool, because Soldiers will know that they're just gonna get smoked, and will just use it to get stronger, in a sense. <div>Always build that bond with your Soldiers. When they see your serious face and automatically know that they messed up, you won't even need anything else. On top of that, when you're able to congratulate them for good things they did, you have become a fair and impartial leader, which we need nowadays.</div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 4:42 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 16:42:29 -0400

SSG Brown,

In my mind, the "smoke session" has never really gotten the job done. A good leader doesn't need the power to cause their subordinates physical pain to get their point across. MG Schofield said it better than I can.

“The discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy than to make an army. It is possible to impart instruction and to give commands in such a manner and such a tone of voice to inspire in the soldier no feeling but an intense desire to obey, while the opposite manner and tone of voice cannot fail to excite strong resentment and a desire to disobey. The one mode or the other of dealing with subordinates springs from a corresponding spirit in the breast of the commander. He who feels the respect which is due to others cannot fail to inspire in them regard for himself, while he who feels, and hence manifests, disrespect toward others, especially his inferiors, cannot fail to inspire hatred against himself.”

Major General John M. Schofield
Address to the Corps of Cadets
August 11, 1879

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2013 3:51 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Oct 2013 15:51:52 -0400

SSG Brown, I think we are being too soft on Soldiers. I think the good old fashion Smoke Session is long overdue for the Army, but due to a lack of maturity in our ranks, we can't trust our Junior NCO's to do it properly and with out getting themselves in trouble. The NCO corps needs to gain the leaderships trust back and then we will be able to execute corrective training that teaches Soldiers discipline and make them stronger in the process.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2013 11:01 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Nov 2013 11:01:18 -0500

Being a SPC, I definitely have an opinion on this: I do not think the Army is being too soft on soldiers. OK so let's say we have SGT #1 and SGT #2. SGT #1 corrects soldiers on the spot and informs them if they will do it again, they will be counseled (or depending on the offense gives a 4856 for the 1st offense) but is polite and treats said individual with respect but expects them to maintain professionalism. SGT #2 sees the same individual make a mistake, screams in their face, and then smokes the shit out of them all while yelling or continuously reprimanding them.
Who is going to get a better product out of their workers? I say SGT #1. SGT #2 may get respect through ruling with an iron fist but the individuals that work for him are only going to do enough work to not make him mad or to get what they want for their own careers (promotion board, soldier of the month). Soldiers working for SGT #1 will work hard because they don't want to be a disappointment and they potentially care about SGT #1 and what he thinks of them not just because they are afraid of him.
It also because an "Us against Him" type of situation. Or soldiers vs. the NCO. It should be a team effort and everyone should be working together not against one another.

Response by CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. made Nov 6 at 2013 1:47 PM

CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. — Wed, 06 Nov 2013 13:47:05 -0500

As has been said, the single greatest problem faced in the NCO Corps and the Company Grade Officer levels is lack of creativity withing the imposed system. Corrective training, executed prior to punishment, must achieve a new level of focus and efficiency.

My favorite, since my squad leader days, is to make subordinates hand copy portions of regulations, those specifically related to the offense. This does many things all at once. The initial counseling informs them of their failure to meet Army standards. Second, by establishing a very low tolerance for error (hand copying for crying out loud) it breeds attention to the details (I require the use of blue or black ink). Third, failure to meet the standard establishes a pattern of failure to meet the standard, leading quickly to UCMJ or separation. Finally, at least here, I know they have read, and probably memorized, parts of that regulation. Nobody likes to do this, but if they fail, they face separation.

For me, the greatest advantage to this is instead of wasting my time, or my NCOs (who need to be working with the promising leaders) this correction must be done on their own time. It works more often than not. Follow-on and close-out counselings turn out better for both the leader and the led. The correction is accomplished with minimal, but repairable damage to the relationship, and the Soldier (possibly even the leader) comes out that much more knowledgeable.

All that to say there must be new ways with the new restrictions...

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2014 8:56 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jan 2014 20:56:57 -0500

I am sure if you asked my 1SG 18 years ago if my generation was too soft they would say yes.

The smoke session is still an available tool in the NCOs kitbag. We must watch how we use it. Like many other things that tool will only work sometimes on some Soldiers. It is not a one tool fix all.

20 years ago the majority of my NCOs didn't care if I had a financial issue or family's problem. They focused on my fault and either smoked me or encouraged me by yelling at me. Today we are taught to identify the underlying problem and fix that.

I honestly believe you are a better leader if you talk to your Soldiers instead of smoking them, but understand that a smoke session can have a great impact if used properly and at the right moment.

I also think a lot of this has come around because of society. I got smacked as a kid and my butt would be black and blue for any mistakes I made. I can honestly say that does not work on my kids. I can get through to my kids more effectively by talking and giving them a verbal dress down. Times change and we must change with them.

Find out how to get through to your Soldiers and then use the right tool for the job. If a good ole fashioned smoke session is in order do it correctly and don't abuse it. I think you will find that just talking to the Soldier will yield better results. Like I always tell my NCOs - you have to be approachable to be an effective leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2014 9:02 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jan 2014 21:02:37 -0500

I say yes, I got this new PVT in my PLT, fresh out of basic, says to me that their wake up wasn't till 0600. I said WHAT ??? What happened to 0430 wake up and PT ?

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Mar 11 at 2014 8:08 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Tue, 11 Mar 2014 08:08:54 -0400

We are being too soft on Soldiers, and that starts at BCT, which is run by a bunch of metrics-obsessed, numbers-driven, risk-averse paper pushers. Drill Sergeants' hands are tied so much, that we can't even use the latrine without getting a permission slip. Don't misunderstand - there was and is no place for DS misconduct. However, the pendulum has swung so far the other way, that BCT Soldiers are weaker in both mind and body than even 15 years ago. That has got to change, and the change has to begin at BCT land.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2014 7:14 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Mar 2014 07:14:09 -0400

Yes we are, people tend to forget that this is an Army, not a place that owes you personal time, explanation for everything, mandatory awards. Not only are we being too soft on Soldiers but those Soldiers are getting promoted and becoming soft leaders. They look good on paper but can't perform in the field.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Sep 13 at 2014 4:14 PM

SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS — Sat, 13 Sep 2014 16:14:32 -0400

SFC Brown.

Soldiers, as a microcosm of society, change. As we have entered the video game, computer, and smart phone age, the persons entering the military have a much different life than I did growing up with a party line telephone and three TV stations.

Thusly our style of training has to change would be an initial comment, or does it? I started my military career as a United States Marine. Boot camp in the Marine Corps is a right of passage. When I went through it was prior to the development of the crucible, but it was still a life changing event.

So in answer to your question are we too soft, probably. But can we be too hard, misguided, or directed, likely. There is a balance which must be struck by NCOs in the field and knowing your troops is a first step. For me, as a senior NCO all someone had to do was act as though they were about to utter the word "disappointed" and I would changing course and doing all I could to excel. I did not hear that word, but it would motivate me if I thought it might come. Again, knowing your Soldiers seems quite important.

Two things which were shared with me that served me well. First, the adage, "easy to be hard, hard to be smart." Second, the adage that "people accept starting hard and getting soft, they have trouble with starting soft and getting hard."

Good luck,

Response by SGT Jeffrey Fisher made Sep 13 at 2014 8:26 PM

SGT Jeffrey Fisher — Sat, 13 Sep 2014 20:26:01 -0400

The recruits are the weak ones! "Oh my P#$$y hurts I am going to call my Mommy" or skipping out on retreat and posting selfies online! Posing making gang symbols WTF! These Kids wouldn't last 2min with my DI or with my CO or NCO s
From back in my time! You whined You got smoked harder! Ridiculous!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2015 12:43 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 17 Jan 2015 12:43:10 -0500

here are some real issues in the military with political correctness and tip toeing around feelings. That being said, there are still multitudes of tools available to all of us when it comes to teaching, motivating, and yes even correcting.
If you feel that you are running out of tools and options to deal with a situation, then talk to your mentors and leaders to discover new options. I have yet to run into a situation where a smoke session was the ONLY solution. I personally see it as a challenge to expand my creativity (and believe me when I say that I can be pretty creative).
That is one of the real benefits of forums such as these.

Response by SFC David Hickman made Jun 12 at 2015 10:28 AM

SFC David Hickman — Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:28:29 -0400

Yes. And many leaders view corrective training as "inhuman". There needs to be a balance when utilizing corrective training. Weak Soldiers are being developed and even though generations of Soldiers change and become modernized, the physical and mental effects of war are unchanging. We're not the Boy Scouts or a political organization.

http://usarmyleaders.blogspot.com/2015/06/us-army-total-leadership-human-side-of.html

U.S. Army Leadership: Post OIF: US Army Total Leadership: The Human Side of Leadership, Often...